The Hobbit [M4 Book Edit 2021] [4 Hours]

[Insidious]

This is my far, the best Hobbit edit. Suits my taste perfectly. A few hours and done. Great work!

 

[ArtisDead]

There are several really good Hobbit edits. That's like saying there are several nice beaches to visit. I've seen almost every Hobbit edit and I would put this one in the top three. Really good editing and vfx make it rise to the top.

 

[CoolGuy209]

This edit (along with the Maple Edit) inspired me with the visuals while I was making my edit which is finally finished after two and a half years of work. I just really love and appreciate these edits. This one I thought was very professional. I've taken a lot of inspiration from all of these, but this one showed me that you an really mess with a lot more than just cutting scenes.

 

[Gieferg]

Mine's better

Yeah, better, unique etc.
Frankly, not really a good way to advertise an edit. Especially when you're a new guy that nobody heard about.

 

[ArtisDead]

Mine's better, but this one inspired me with the visuals, along with the Maple Edit

...and you're claiming that your edit is better than an edit that many "in-the-know" people consider to be the best...not the best look for you, new guy.

 

[DigModiFicaTion]

...and you're claiming that your edit is better than an edit that many "in-the-know" people consider to be the best...not the best look for you, new guy.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to call recent and past community members "in the know" over new members. That becomes a slippery slope for anyone newly joining the community. I've seen a fair amount of praise by members of self and close associates that are almost equally offsetting. There's plenty of evidence in the edits themselves that can allow someone to make up their own mind.

 

[CoolGuy209]

...and you're claiming that your edit is better than an edit that many "in-the-know" people consider to be the best...not the best look for you, new guy.

I see now how it was sort of rude of me to start my message that way. I actually only commented because I wanted to mention how this and the Cardenal Cut inspired a few things for mine, and that biggest impact they had was with the visuals, mostly this one on the visuals.

 

[CoolGuy209]

Yeah, better, unique etc.
Frankly, not really a good way to advertise an edit. Especially when you're a new guy that nobody heard about.

Yeah I wasn't quite trying to advertise mine. I just got excited. I only commented because I was tryin to praise this one's visuals. And I mean, I made mine so I'm obviously going to prefer it, everything I did was for the intention that it's pleasing to me (and so it works fine for people who'd never seen the trilogy)

 

[ArtisDead]

I'm sure you are a CoolGuy209. Don't get too caught up in any of these comments, mine included. Be yourself. I just realized how much I don't like for people to throw water on my fire. Also, everyone has an opinion. Opinions are subjective. You may indeed have created the best Hobbit edit?

I've seen it happen before. Firsthand. By a new editor. Two of them, to be precise. But that's my subjective opinion. If you think yours is the best...let's see it. It might be! I'm more interested in your Outsiders edit. I just bought that bluray so that I can review it.

Obviously, I consider this Hobbit edit one of the best. Let's return to the topic of the thread. Thanks for your passion for the hobby! Good luck!

 

[M4_]

Hello everyone, I'm working on a potential update. While I tried to perfect the edit as much as possible the first time around, there are still some things I wish I could improve. These are all going to be pretty minor and just trying to improve what already exists, not majorly altering the plot:

For part 1

• Because Azog is gone, who exactly are the enemies that show up to attack the company after the Misty Mountains? We see plenty of shots of Orcs and wargs, but the company just looked at them and never address them. So, I have now added some generic dialogue to explain that it is indeed just a random Orc pack, Thorin says "Warg scouts!" and "An Orc pack is not far behind!" which also helps tie in with the scene at the start of my edit where the company discusses Orc packs, this is the payoff.

That's it though for the first half, nothing else I would change.

For part 2

• Why exactly does Gandalf leave at Mirkwood? All we saw was him notice a red marking in the forest and we know that when he comes back he brings news of an Orc army. To make it make more sense, I now have added a quick scene with Beorn where Gandalf discusses a rising presence of Orcs, evilness, and an offhand mention of the Necromancer (which acts as a nod to the book, where he was also briefly mentioned but never explained). This should now plant a seed that Gandalf is aware of a "rising evilness" problem so that when he disappears in the very next scene it feels earned.

Didn't post clip yet

• Why does Kili fall down in Laketown and drop all the weapons even though he wasn't wounded? Originally I relied on the audience to just forget the original context. Now, I have masked out his face in all his shots and gave his skin more warmth and color so he doesn't look sick. I also added wood sound effects right before he falls to help imply that he is actually just slippng clumsily on a loose board and not falling out of weakness

Didn't post clip yet

• Why does Bilbo run away during the battle? We see him surrounded by brutal chaos, civilians dying, and Gandalf unable to help, but it still was sudden for him to instantly book it. Now, I have intercut his retreat to during the "sad montage" where the we see Azog say "They cannot hold the city" while we hear overlaying sad music--this frames Bilbo's retreat much better, now the good guys are visibly losing and the battle has gone on for quite some time. Also, I have fixed continuity because when we see Bilbo retreat there were Elves in the background which didn't make sense in my original cut. I also was able to make a new VFX shot where we see Bilbo quickly slip off his ring when he gets to Ravenhill and thinks he is safe, thus resolving the issue where in my original cut we just had to assume he removed the ring off screen.

This is just a clip of the fixed continuity where he now takes off his ring in Ravenhill

• Why does Thorin transition from stubborn to good so quickly? Of course dragon sickness is gone, he's supposed to be overwhelmed with stubbornness and greed, but eventually comes around. I have trimmed many instances of him going crazy and lashing out, so his "lowest low" is just in the Throne room and at the gate, which even those I have also trimmed down. However, it could be cool to have a brief scene where he see what is going through his head that makes him change his mind. I probably won't use this in the final cut it's just too long but would be open to hearing thoughts if people think it works.

- Added mask to reduce gold shine on the bottom of the screen. I still kept a bit of it there, because I think it's great visual symbolism of him being consumed by greed and also for all we know he's walking through treasure.
- Less echoing and audio effects as he remembers certain words, he's not supposed to actually be going crazy he's just conflicted
- He remembers Bilbo, Dwalin's word, and finally his conversation with Balin in AUJ, which I think is a great way to tie his arc all together
- This is a scene made up from scratch with random shots so the whole audio mix is built from the ground up, foot steps, ambience, vocals, soundtrack

• Why do we go to Ravenhill so quickly? To stick with my project goals I avoided drawing out the battle too long and showing Dwarf goat riders, so instead I framed this sequence as a music montage. Now, I have added three moments of Gandalf narrating throughout the battle, two of which are here, which help break up the flow of the battle so we aren't so focused on just Thorin and his location.

TLDR: I'm addressing the issues in bold, and have some test clips if you want to give any feedback
To compensate for any runtime increase, I have actually greatly reduced redundant action by about ~1.5 minutes, mostly of Ravenhill stuff and unnecessary Dwarf chariots.

 

[ArtisDead]

You amaze me with your drive for perfection. Your edit is arguably and subjectively, the best Hobbit edit in most people's mind. But not in yours, I presume. I can't wait to see what you end up doing different. Everything looks great so far.

 

[M4_]

Just trying to adapt the book more closely.

I'm deciding I won't include that Thorin scene even though it's decent. I'll still have adjusted that transition cutting from thorin inside to dain outside by adding 1 shot but I think the original way is just better, fits the scope of this project. But now I can at least add another scene to my deleted scenes

I anticipate the update will be out this week at the earliest, or next month. I always keep saying I am finished, but truly this time I think after taking a year break and a fresh set of eyes this has to be it. If I come back in another year and want to do an update... at that point I'll just be trying to fix something that isn't broken and going back on my opinions.

 

[henzINNIT]

I hate to sound like I'm picking at something I genuinely admire, but I watched the edit again with a 'normie' a little while back and observed some potentially useful reactions from someone who wasn't looking too closely. I caught 3 moment that seemed to jar them. Kili tripping was one, the approach to Ravenhill was another.

The third was Bombur passing out in Mirkwood. I don't believe there is a shot of him hitting the water, but my 'audience' seemed a little confused in that moment. Perhaps a second look at that sequence of shots? It's maybe trimmed down just a smidge too much to communicate Bombur succumbing to the river's magic. I wouldn't have even mentioned it, but as you're tweaking a couple of bits I figure a suggestion couldn't hurt.

 

[Darth Kermit]

The third was Bombur passing out in Mirkwood. I don't believe there is a shot of him hitting the water

In the theatrical Desolation of Smaug there isn’t even a shot of this if I remember correctly

 

[hbenthow]

That's it though for the first half, nothing else I would change.

Is there any chance that you would consider also cutting the trolls asking who Gandalf is and if they can eat him after he shouts "The dawn will take you all!"? In my opinion, cutting straight from Gandalf's line to him splitting the rock with his staff flows better and feels much more exciting and majestic without the comedy relief bit in between.

Much more importantly, though, is it possible that you will update the film grain effect in this version? As you pointed out two years ago when I first suggested adding grain to the edit:

these are just layers and don’t interact differently with shadows and the actual content like real film grain.

I have since found out that there are multiple ways to fix this issue.

One method (when using grain overlays) is to create an inverted mask layer that makes the grain appear less visible in the highlights. I'm not quite sure how to do it, but if I'm not mistaken, @DonkeyKonga does and was planning to use it in a now-abandoned project to realistically regrain the Lord of the Rings 4K releases.

There's also this tutorial on a method to use in DaVinci Resolve:

And there's this tutorial on how to simulate grain in Premiere pro using a different method (without overlays) that is dynamic according to brightness.

A lot of film plugins (Boris FX Sapphire's S_Ultragrain filter, FilmBox, Dehancer, FilmConvert Nitrate, etc) also add grain in a way that is dynamic according to the brightness of various parts of the image, but these plugins tend to be expensive.

There are also some compression artefacts in the sky during the boat trip to Laketown (in the form of a sort of banding between dark and light areas), but I don't know whether anything can be done about that.

 

[M4_]

Feedback is always welcome, and thank you to everyone for all showing up with interest, remember all your names.

- Kili tripping should be addressed by now, I mentioned earlier how I've now made him look less pale and added tripping sfx

- Ravenhill is also addressed with the new shots of Gandalf, but we still do change locations quickly which is something I can live with. I would rather have a tighter battle with no goats that appear out of nowhere--which is confusing in its own right

- In the original release there was no shot of Bombur hitting the water, but there was a shot of him starting to fall off the vines. I cut it and instead added vines slipping sound effects for a Tolkien reason, it didn't make sense that he fell asleep without touching the water, in the book you have to touch it to become enchanted. However I do have a test clip where I could include a quick flash of him starting to slip but this is as much as you'd get, I love the book details. I don't think I'll use this but here goes:

- Just tried to cut the comedic Troll lines but it butchers the soundtrack build up so I'll opt to leave it in, good idea though

- Unfortunately I'm not going to go shot by shot to manually apply accurate film grain, it's too much work for too little return. I did try the method in that second video when I was first doing this though, but I ended up still preferring the look of a 35mm template. I have it set to a lower opacity and Soft Light setting so it does help out to make it look more real.

- For banding, I will export with max bit depth, but otherwise I am still exporting at a solid bitrate that people even complain about because of the filesize. Re-compressing fog in h264 is just asking for problems. I tested this trick to fix the banding in the night shot right after Misty Mountains song and it worked, so we should be good!

I think that about covers it, I will probably post another update video going over every change in the v3 update once everything is locked in.

 

[hbenthow]

I don't think that version quite works. The splash is very loud, and then very shortly later, the water is only mildly rippling around him. It doesn't match up.

- Unfortunately I'm not going to go shot by shot to manually apply accurate film grain, it's too much work for too little return. I did try the method in that second video when I was first doing this though, but I ended up still preferring the look of a 35mm template.

It wouldn't need to be done shot by shot, from what I understand. I think it can be done for the whole project at once with adjustment layers or something of that nature.

I have it set to a lower opacity and Soft Light setting so it does help out to make it look more real.

Have you also done this for the bonus features ("The White Council", etc)?

 

[M4_]

Yep all special features have consistent color grading and film grain with the main feature.

I agree, I'm going to keep the Bombur part the same as before. If you have surround sound the vine sounds play in the back channels so it's supposed to be like he's slipping behind us. You're right that it could introduce brief confusion, but I think the context clues are there so I'm just sticking to my book nerd philosophy.

Using the first method it would need to be added to each shot but I don't use Davinci so not applicable, in the second tutorial at the end you have to copy the layer on top of itself, so maybe you could flatten everything as a nested sequence then copy it on top but I'm not sure if each shot needs to be individually tweaked to make sure it looks good or if it's really just a one size fits all overlay, I'm getting the idea that these methods are not too feasible for a highly complex timeline. Unless someone wants to run some tests.

 

[hbenthow]

Using the first method it would need to be added to each shot but I don't use Davinci so not applicable, in the second tutorial at the end you have to copy the layer on top of itself, so maybe you could flatten everything as a nested sequence then copy it on top but I'm not sure if each shot needs to be individually tweaked to make sure it looks good or if it's really just a one size fits all overlay, I'm getting the idea that these methods are not too feasible for a highly complex timeline. Unless someone wants to run some tests.

I'm not quite sure how to do the inverted mask layer method, but from what I understand, it sounds like it can be done for the whole timeline at once. DonkeyKonga might know more.

There are quite a few plugins that can add grain with the proper differences between light and dark parts of the image, but most are expensive (Boris FX Sapphire, Dehancer, Filmbox, etc). I think that FilmConvert is probably the cheapest one.

Dehancer has a free trial (which I believe is a fully-functional two-week trial, the only limitation being that it won't work on 4K video). Maybe you could try that. It has some very powerful and easy to use film grain emulation (and tools to emulate film color, halation, etc), and there's a version for Premiere.

Dehancer

Dehancer is a film-like app and DaVinci Resolve OFX video plugin for color grading with 3D Lut profiles. Dozens of real photographic and motion picture films are precisely captured, emulated and packed in a simple to use and effective plugin with truly analogue controls simulating real film...

www.dehancer.com

 

[M4_]

Well maybe we'll get lucky and he responds let's ask
@DonkeyKonga Hey, I currently have a 35mm film grain overlay applied to my edit but we were wondering if you know a better way of applying one that is more accurate to real film, the problem is my timeline is very complex and I don't want to go shot by shot to manually tweak the application of an overlay. Is it possible to do something all in adjustment layers? My instinct is no.