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The Hobbit [M4 Book Edit 2021] [4 Hours]

M4_ said:
Well maybe we'll get lucky and he responds let's ask
@DonkeyKonga Hey, I currently have a 35mm film grain overlay applied to my edit but we were wondering if you know a better way of applying one that is more accurate to real film, the problem is my timeline is very complex and I don't want to go shot by shot to manually tweak the application of an overlay. Is it possible to do something all in adjustment layers? My instinct is no.
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Yes. It takes some tweaking but I have a way to make the grain react less to light areas. However I'm working in premiere pro, I have zero knowledge with other programs. :)
 
DonkeyKonga said:
Yes. It takes some tweaking but I have a way to make the grain react less to light areas. However I'm working in premiere pro, I have zero knowledge with other programs. :)
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Me too I'm using premiere. I am keeping the grain a pretty subtle thing it doesn't need to be 1:1 to LOTR (well that would be cool I guess) but I'd rather just having something visually pleasing. It's definitely lazier but I'm looking for something I can basically throw on top of the whole movie even if it sacrifices some accuracy--not sure if I'm willing to put in the time to manually go through each scene at this stage when I just want to be done with the edit again.

Do you have any tips for what you do, or a screenshot perhaps?
 
M4_ said:
Just trying to adapt the book more closely.

I'm deciding I won't include that Thorin scene even though it's decent. I'll still have adjusted that transition cutting from thorin inside to dain outside by adding 1 shot but I think the original way is just better, fits the scope of this project. But now I can at least add another scene to my deleted scenes :)

I anticipate the update will be out this week at the earliest, or next month. I always keep saying I am finished, but truly this time I think after taking a year break and a fresh set of eyes this has to be it. If I come back in another year and want to do an update... at that point I'll just be trying to fix something that isn't broken and going back on my opinions.
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Excited for this tbh. I adored your edit! I am currently also in the process of revisiting my first Indy edit and it's fun to see how much more clarity you have when you revisit something after a long period of time. Send me a PM over the whole grain thing if you want to know how I did it. Keep the thread clean haha
 
M4_ said:
Me too I'm using premiere. I am keeping the grain a pretty subtle thing it doesn't need to be 1:1 to LOTR (well that would be cool I guess) but I'd rather just having something visually pleasing. It's definitely lazier but I'm looking for something I can basically throw on top of the whole movie even if it sacrifices some accuracy--not sure if I'm willing to put in the time to manually go through each scene at this stage when I just want to be done with the edit again.

Do you have any tips for what you do, or a screenshot perhaps?
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I got just what the doctor ordered. Will send you screenshot later. Might take a few days because I'm getting married Thursday. :p
 
^ Pfft. Get your priorities straight :p

M4, did you ever look at the new(ish) 4k masters for the Hobbit? I am mildly curious to check them out myself, from what I've seen there was quite an improvment. Though that is probably the last thing you'd want to investigate with an already assembled and colour corrected edit ha
 
I did a little bit, but yeah like you say I already have my own color grading and "look" established that I enjoy. I haven't really truly been able to look at the new version because I don't even have an HDR monitor so most screenshots aren't fully accurate. This (and more storage space, and a drive that can read these discs) are things I would have to purchase

From what I have seen, I don't think the new version made much of an attempt to look closer to LOTR (which is fine, I get that the trilogies have their own looks) so it's still very vibrant and glowy similar problem as the 1080p version, but probably just more consistent and in higher quality with HDR. Want to watch the original films? Then I think the new 4k version is for sure the way to go, but in terms of fan edits I'm going to hold back.
 
Edit has been updated - 9/1/2023. The 1080p and 720p digital versions are up, but the ISO will take some time. I will also be taking another look at the film grain before I do the ISO (also gives a moment for if anyone provides feedback on these changes). After a yearlong break, I've come back with a fresh set of eyes to address the following potential issues in the edit:

- Because Azog is gone, who exactly are the enemies that show up to attack the company after the Misty Mountains?
- Why exactly does Gandalf leave at Mirkwood?
- Why does Kili fall down in Laketown and drop all the weapons even though he wasn't wounded?
- Why does Bilbo run away during the battle, and when did he take off his ring?
- Why did it feel like Thorin had a quick change of heart?
- Why do we go to Ravenhill so quickly?
- Plus some more miscellaneous things

Best part is, runtime is the same (2 seconds shorter) even after addressing all these points due to how I cut back on some generic action.

While I had already tried to smooth these parts out as best as possible in the original release (which I am still proud of), I think this new set of tweaks will better help sell my creative changes to a first-time viewer. I can safely say I am satisfied yet again with the full cut, with the only lackluster areas being a result of just dealing with the footage we have while juggling my project goals -- a jump between AUJ to DoS due how these were shot as separate films + the mess that is the Ravenhill battle which includes how Thorin's sword changes midway through due to the removal of Legolas/sword-throwing.

Full changelog:
- (-1 second) Removed shot of Ori slamming his slingshot like a child--didn't think it fit with how I present Dwarves when in a life/death scenario
- (Audio change) Added dialogue when Warg pack attacks to help give some explanation ("Warg scouts! An Orc pack is not far behind!")
In the book, the Wargs were allied the Goblins and had met by the trees to organize a night raid. However, the goblins were late because of the death of their king. Once arrived, together they taunted/tried to kill the dwarves as revenge. This is far too different in the film, so it's best to just have it be a "generic Orc raid." It acts now as a payoff to the Orc pack scene from the first act. If the audience also wants to connect the Warg pack and Misty Mountain Goblins in their head they can, but it is not needed.
- (Audio change) Adjusted end of the Eagle montage transition by adjusting center channel
- (+38 seconds) Extended scene of Beorn and Gandalf talking before Mirkwood so that Beorn discusses more about Orcs, evilness, and a Necromancer (reference to the book)
This sells Gandalf's disappearance, we know that an evil marking incites his departure and we know that when he comes back he has news of Orcs. However, we need just a little bit more of an explanation, so now we see Gandalf showing interest in this "Necromancer" (which is also a nod to the book, it always bothered me that my cut never mentioned him even though the book does) and a growing presence of Orcs. Thus, when he leaves we can connect the dots and understand that he must be off to investigate these matters. Still, we avoid any on the nose name/music references to Sauron.
- (Audio change) Added Oin's "We've lost the path" dialogue from theatrical edition
- (Visual & audio change) Masked out Kili's face for all the shots during/after he slips and applied warmth so he looks less sickly. Also added some slipping sound effects right as he falls to imply that his legs didn't just give out due to weakness.
- (+32 seconds) Added a trimmed down version of Bilbo vouching for Thorin in Laketown to help build their friendship
- (+7 seconds) Added some more Laketown civilian chaos before Bard gets to fighting the dragon, even though this chapter is still short I really tried to make it as long as possible
- (Audio change) Added more Smaug dialogue back in "You are forsaken...Bowman"
- (-8 seconds) Removed unnecessary Alfrid lines on beach, all he says now is "All hail the dragon slayer, King Bard!" before being cut off
- (Audio change) Removed voiceover during the reveal of Thranduil's desired white gems, we will remember his dialogue from less than an hour ago because it's all one movie
- (-30 seconds) Cut out Dwarf chariots because they aren't very Tolkien
- (-8 seconds) Re-arranged footage and moved Bilbo's retreat to the "sad montage" so that it feels earned and less cowardly, lost some footage of generic action in the process
- (+6 seconds) Added a longer shot at the end of the Dwalin/Thorin throne scene to help show he is at a loss for words. Masked out Thorin's face and applied some fading in warmth to make him look less pale, like he is coming to his senses.
- (-5 seconds) Removed unnecessary Azog dialogue "Now comes their end" to reduce runtime, plus it's nice to make Azog seem like he has less "personal beef"
- (+1 second) Bard's final charge is intercut with a shot of the Dwarf army pushing back the Orcs (theatrical shot) with Gandalf saying "They're rallying to their King"
- (+6 seconds) Replaced Bilbo walking in Ravenhill with a shot where he takes off his ring (new VFX) and gets his sword out before walking, fixing continuity
- (-5 seconds) Removed Bombur's silly Orc kill where he jumps and kicks
- (+6) Inserted some shots of Gandalf narrating during the Misty Mountains montage to help ease the jump to Ravenhill
- (-9 seconds) Shortened fighting Azog in Ravenhill, we get the idea
- (-13 seconds) Shortened the duel on ice, again we get the idea
- (-16 seconds) Removed a really long shot of dead Azog to help hide the Elf blade
- Exported using max bit depth, fixed any potential banding
- Updated all subtitles (added Greek, additional improvements to Polish, Brazilian)
- (Special Features) Removed Durin's Folk title screen--we already have 3 titles for each segment so it's more consistent to use just those, plus my Durin's Folk title didn't even match The Hobbit title, better to just cut
- (Special Features) Re-added "never forgave, never forgot" line with theatrical audio to fix transition
- (Special Features) Restructured deleted scene organization, both discs now have them respectively: Warg Chase / The White Council and then Thorin Enters Treasure Horde / Poor Souls / Ruins of Erebor / Thorin Regains Sense (a new one)
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M4_ said:
- (Special Features) Restructured deleted scene organization, both discs now have them respectively: Warg Chase / The White Council and then Thorin Enters Treasure Horde / Poor Souls / Ruins of Erebor / Thorin Regains Sense (a new one)
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Have you ever considered making a short film which would show an edited, improved version of the entire White Council/Necromancer subplot that's cut from your book edit, as sort of an optional companion-piece showing what Gandalf was up to while he was away (similar to what Dustin Lee did with "Durin's Folk and the Hill of Sorcery")?

I liked the tweaks that you made to the White Council scene, and have always wondered what it would look like if you made an edited version of the entire subplot.
 
I'm going to have to follow this thread. You keep making changes to what I think is already an awesome edit.
 
I did consider making that! It would be a 3-5 minute sequence with lots of establishing shots and audio flashbacks, framing it like we missed the first half, then some quick paced cuts and then end off with a slower part less chopped up showing the aftermath. Part of the reason is because we can't really have them showing up since it's all split up and with Radagast and Gandalf fighting azog which I wouldn't wanna show, but then once they are all fighting together it's better. Don't like the nazgul ghosts though

I gave up because it was too confusing and too much footage (I think the plot has like upwards of 30 minutes of dol guldur, both from DOS and BOTFA) to condense and make into a well flowing little short but I might give it one more look. Pretty sure I won't be able to make a version though. If it cant get up to semi-accurate Tolkien standards then it's not meant to be, because that's supposed to be the whole theme of the project
 
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M4_ said:
I gave up because it was too confusing and too much footage (I think the plot has like upwards of 30 minutes of dol guldur, both from DOS and BOTFA) to condense and make into a well flowing little short but I might give it one more look
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Last update for now. Ended up making a (very short) Dol Guldur special feature. However, you have to find where it is :) ISOs are done again and uploaded.

The new Thorin scene is also on there, definitely one of my favorites on disc 2. All special features now also have commentary.

DTS-HD MA is also available to add to the digital version now as a separate file if you wish.

Very happy with the new flow of the final battle from my last announcement, it might be time for a full rewatch. Might even do another live watch event again, if you're interested it should be pretty easy to find my Discord now.
 
M4_ said:
Last update for now. Ended up making a (very short) Dol Guldur special feature. However, you have to find where it is :) ISOs are done again and uploaded.

The new Thorin scene is also on there, definitely one of my favorites on disc 2. All special features now also have commentary.

DTS-HD MA is also available to add to the digital version now as a separate file if you wish.

Very happy with the new flow of the final battle from my last announcement, it might be time for a full rewatch. Might even do another live watch event again, if you're interested it should be pretty easy to find my Discord now.
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Did you use DonkeyKonga's grain method?
 
Can you make a Book accurate version of the Lord of the Rings Trilogy?
 
I don’t have plans for that but I do have something else I’m cooking up right now.

I’d recommend checking DonkeyKonga’s Precious editions, might not be all about accuracy but makes some cool changes. Realistically, if Hobbit was a 5/10 accuracy and fan edits bring it up to a 7.5/10, I think LOTR is already at a 7 and would just need a small nudge-mostly for films two and three. I don’t think going to great lengths to make them accurate would be ideal though, then the movies start to not make sense to normal viewers
 
Hi all,

I know this edit is approved and finished, but I do want to share something I've been working, not that the previous version is bad or has errors, but with so much footage to work with there are truly unending combinations. Sometimes it takes time to uncover the right one. Nothing has been actually updated, these are just tests.

1) First, I wanted to share I pulled some shots from the Appendices and had to build surround sound from nothing, they can be seen here at 5:44


It's a nice Dwarf moment, the one time Bombur doesn't want food ... we see him share with Bifur who then spits out the food. The underlying reason behind this addition is to give a stronger sense of boredom, the Dwarves have been stuck here for a while even though in the movie it goes by pretty quick.

2) I'm also locking in on a revision of of the final battle and would be curious if anyone has any feedback. The sequence is reduced from 55 minutes to almost 17 minutes (from Azog intro, to Azog death), and {EDIT: Preview removed, see later reply for new version}

About 1.5 minutes shorter than previous version.

- The start of the "sad montage" is tidied up
- Bilbo's full retreat has been moved to during the "sad montage" (did this a while ago)
- Ravenhill sequence no longer has the somewhat drawn out "final boss" Azog/Thorin duel on top of the ice
- I have still kept plenty of fighting beforehand, but with a new technique I was able to cut to another quick "sad montage" showing our heroes at another low moment (also mirrors the book) right before the Eagles show up, and then Thorin/Azog get into their final moment as normal. If I'm presenting Azog as just a random Orc, I really think it works better to not have the fight go on for so long.

Also note, for everyone that critiqued how we 'teleport' to Ravenhill, I did experiment with an entire re-edit from the ground up where the sequence was cut as a dream-like montage that happens after Bilbo is knocked out with intentional fast cuts, dissolves, and "flashback" visuals. All of the feedback was negative and wished it was back to the original way, even if the original way has its flaws. I think the fact that I have smoothed everything else in the edit to a very high standard makes this one moment stick out, even though if you analyze it for a casual viewer it's not that problematic and certainly not confusing to follow.

Finally, to address some of the reviews that have docked the narrative score for 'sticking too close to the book causes problems,' upon continual analysis of plot threads and character arcs I'm not really sure what this refers to--but I really have tried to understand and address it. I have 3 minor edits to Thorin's dialogue that will actually smooth his arc out even more, but beyond that I have already included everything related to Bilbo/the Company, i.e. the main narrative (and even further with the use of extended-scene character moments), so I think the narrative is very easy to follow. Azog's (minimal) plot has a clear introduction with dialogue for his motivations (claim the mountain) and his army's origin (thanks to Gandalf), and plays out with a beginning, middle, and end. Though, I do see how it being so shortened can cause people to question it in comparison to how in depth his plot originally was.
 
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M4_ said:
- The start of the "sad montage" is tidied up
- Bilbo's full retreat has been moved to during the "sad montage" (did this a while ago)
- Ravenhill sequence no longer has the somewhat drawn out "final boss" Azog/Thorin duel on top of the ice
- I have still kept plenty of fighting beforehand, but with a new technique I was able to cut to another quick "sad montage" showing our heroes at another low moment (also mirrors the book) right before the Eagles show up, and then Thorin/Azog get into their final moment as normal. If I'm presenting Azog as just a random Orc, I really think it works better to not have the fight go on for so long.
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I really dig the new sad montage! The shortened Azog/Thorin duel, not so much. I think it's a little too abrupt how Thorin ends down on his back and it's incosistent with the glimmer of hope that comes with the Eagles. He should at least put up a fight at that point, shouldn't he?
 
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PanExis said:
I really dig the new sad montage! The shortened Azog/Thorin duel, not so much. I think it's a little too abrupt how Thorin ends down on his back and it's incosistent with the glimmer of hope that comes with the Eagles. He should at least put up a fight at that point, shouldn't he?
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Thanks! Well, that's how it also was in my previous cut to be fair. The ice duel that I removed took place before the Eagles showed up.

I did add that new close up of the ice while we hear Thorin/Azog fighting in the background, the intent is to show that they have been fighting off screen and we only cut back when he is knocked down. Reason being, I can't show the whole Azog underwater jumping out of the ice I just have to cut right to him getting knocked down. I have always wished I could show him being knocked down, even tried repurposing footage but the continuity didn't line up.

With the new sad montage it's really trying to hammer in that war is not glorious, it's tragic, so all 3 Dwarves dying somewhat-abruptly as compared to a long drawn out epic duel does make sense. The question is, how much of Thorin's fight do we keep or cut.

Also, I'm aware that this section is not perfect. My previous Ravenhill wasn't either, every time someone will have something to point out, just trying to find the best combo that fits my vision.
 
M4_ said:
Thanks! Well, that's how it also was in my previous cut to be fair. The ice duel that I removed took place before the Eagles showed up.
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Oh, I actually did not remember that! Still, I think that shortening the duel on ice to the point that you we do not see anything else but Thorin dying is a little too abrupt. A solution that I am not quite sure is possible as it would certainly need VFX work is keeping some of the battle on the ice, then have Thorin on his back as part of the sad montage and then bring the Eagles coming behind Azog's head with Thorin deciding to sacrifice himself and take Azog with him. As I've already said, I'm not sure that's possible, but theoretically it could work.
 
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M4_ said:
- Ravenhill sequence no longer has the somewhat drawn out "final boss" Azog/Thorin duel on top of the ice
- I have still kept plenty of fighting beforehand, but with a new technique I was able to cut to another quick "sad montage" showing our heroes at another low moment (also mirrors the book) right before the Eagles show up, and then Thorin/Azog get into their final moment as normal. If I'm presenting Azog as just a random Orc, I really think it works better to not have the fight go on for so long.
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I don't see minimizing Azog in this particular scene as a plus. He's built up as the "head of the snake" who is able to lead the Orcs to victory, and as such, is representative of the Orcs as a whole. He is already vastly minimized compared to his role in the original movies, so I don't think there's any need to minimize him more. He's the face of the Orcish threat.

I think that the "sad montage" is a good idea, but that the Thorin/Azog fight comes across too choppy and brief in this version. Also, having the Eagles show up so soon after the montage doesn't feel quite right to me.

The amount of time between "He's taking his best warriors" and "to cut the head off of the snake" also feels a bit awkward to me. It feels as if Gandalf is waiting there to finish his sentence while Thorin makes his way up to Ravenhill and fights multiple Orcs before staring across the frozen water. I know it's intended to be understood that Gandalf says it all at once and we're just hearing it at different parts of the montage, but it still comes across awkwardly to me. I think it works better to time the closeup of Azog grinning close to the moment when Gandalf says "to cut the head off of the snake".
 
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