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The Hobbit [M4 Book Edit 2021] [4 Hours]

It does feel a bit choppy, especially the cuts between Gandalf and the battle. I understand the desire to streamline it further, but there needs to be an ebb and flow to the battle and an appropriate amount of time to sell its scope. This shorter version is starting to come at the expense of that in my opinion. Same with the boss orc. That feels like an acceptable addition for the sake of a movie, a proper obstacle to take Thorin down, and similarly needs its time to feel significant.
 
This is the version that comes closest to the vision I was always hoping to present in my edit given my goals, and having spent years experimenting with shots and sequencing I'm really more looking to make sure the technical quality of audio transitions is fine.

For the placement of Gandalf's words, the whole point is the sequence is a montage that's moving through events quickly. I do not want to draw attention to the location change by trying to cut everything in "real time." Instead, I have embraced being a montage and intercut Gandalf's "narration" with the transition to Ravenhill, it is especially nice that he drops the final line right before we cut to the sweeping longshot with the epic music. Putting it earlier would draw attention to us "teleporting" and also lessen the impact of his dialogue. I made this addition in the 2023 update, if majority had left negative feedback when I was testing this, I may have changed my mind but audiences didn't comment on this.

Implying that the "ebb and flow" of the entire 18-minute battle has been ruined because we have excluded the 1 minute ice duel in my previous version is also quite harsh, I simply disagree. I would hope that we are watching the full battle to properly digest each beat.

My thought process is that after both Fili and Kili die, Thorin is knocked to the ground, and Orc reinforcements are showing up, we are at another lowest point. Instead of moving on to yet another scene of Thorin dueling Azog, something that was originally so long to pay off a 3-film-long feud (which we don't have), we continue to pile onto our "lowest moment" as our other heroes start to lose hope. After all this, when we think we might lose the Eagles suddenly show up and our hope is replenished. It fits the book better, has better continuity, and is tighter which I think will make it more entertaining for general audiences who probably get it, Azog is the big bad guy and Thorin has been trying to kill him.

I don't feel that we have removed the idea that "Azog needs to be killed," the whole battle we show Azog giving commands, we still have multiple characters acknowledge/talk about the plan to find/kill Azog, we spend the last 1/3 of the battle in Ravenhill actually fighting/fighting towards Azog, and after all of this we still end off with Thorin facing off Azog 1v1 fighting to the death. Peter Jackson did not really shoot the battle where Azog's death signifies victory either, if it were the case where Azog's death literally means win (akin to Sauron's death), then I would be more inclined. The Eagles are what stop the thousands of Orcs, essentially stabbing through the heart of the army, and then killing off Azog is really just twisting the blade, something we still see in my version.

Also, it's worth noting that Thorin's beats are just as important as Azog being a villain if not more important, the fact that he's fighting relentlessly and sacrificing himself, which I still retain all of--changing his mind because of Dwalin, reconciling with the Dwarves briefly, charging out, planning an attack, actually following through, slaying many Orcs and slaying Azog, but dying in the process, then apologizing to Bilbo.

I do appreciate the feedback that's unfortunate you guys didn't enjoy this. I will say tho, could be wrong, but sounds like these points are kind of more coming from a place where we're comparing the originals, when really I would rather us just look at what the battle is, yes there could be more emphasis on certain aspects (there could also be more emphasis on Thorin, remember my deleted scenes for him), but does the battle still achieve what it needs to in an entertaining and cinematic fashion. I will be curious to show this to casual viewers and see if they properly digest Azog's importance and understand why Thorin needs to kill him, and then appreciate that killing him was worthwhile.
 
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M4_ said:
I do appreciate the feedback that's unfortunate you guys didn't enjoy this. I will say tho, could be wrong, but sounds like these points are kind of more coming from a place where we're comparing the originals, when really I would rather us just look at what the battle is, yes there could be more emphasis on certain aspects (there could also be more emphasis on Thorin, remember my deleted scenes for him), but does the battle still achieve what it needs to in an entertaining and cinematic fashion. I will be curious to show this to casual viewers and see if they properly digest Azog's importance and understand why Thorin needs to kill him, and then appreciate that killing him was worthwhile.
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Even when not comparing it to the original, it feels choppy and abrupt to me in several places.

When looking at your previous version and this new preview for the sake of comparison, I came up with an idea for a possible way to handle the sad montage and the Thorin/Azog fight that might flow better. I'll try to see if I can edit together a rough mockup of the idea within the next few days.
 
As much as I understand why people might feel its 'choppy', that's the entire purpose of a montage. It's inherently choppy.

I think what M4 did is quite daring, especially considering the restrictions of not deviating from the book, where possible. How Bilbo goes up there by himself is a stroke of genius imo, very creative.
 
Apologies if any offence was caused M4, I appreciate that you've put a lot of painstaking effort in to this and regard your work very highly.

I've read your response and better understand your logic behind this new sequence. Upon rewatch I should say that the bulk of this works very nicely. Bilbo's run is particularly well implemented. My hang-ups really come down a couple of Gandalf shots feeling a bit jarring, maybe a bit close together once Thorin hits Ravenhill, and feeling a bit like they clash with Dain's close-ups when Thorin departs. This very well could be my brain being too aware of change. Regarding Thorin and boss orc's confrontation, it could be the same again. That said, it is visually apparent that something is cut because the pair switch places in their staredown. The flow of the cuts is great but the geography is a bit incoherent.

I feel obliged to give suggestions because I love this edit, however I do mean them to be suggestions only. I hope I don't come off as overly critical or patronising (or unpleasant in general lol).
 
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henzINNIT said:
Apologies if any offence was caused M4, I appreciate that you've put a lot of painstaking effort in to this and regard your work very highly.

I've read your response and better understand your logic behind this new sequence. Upon rewatch I should say that the bulk of this works very nicely. Bilbo's run is particularly well implemented. My hang-ups really come down a couple of Gandalf shots feeling a bit jarring, maybe a bit close together once Thorin hits Ravenhill, and feeling a bit like they clash with Dain's close-ups when Thorin departs. This very well could be my brain being too aware of change. Regarding Thorin and boss orc's confrontation, it could be the same again. That said, it is visually apparent that something is cut because the pair switch places in their staredown. The flow of the cuts is great but the geography is a bit incoherent.

I feel obliged to give suggestions because I love this edit, however I do mean them to be suggestions only. I hope I don't come off as overly critical or patronising (or unpleasant in general lol).
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The geography in the original is arguably worse. Somehow Bilbo reaches the dwarfs far sooner than Legolas who even uses a bat to hitch a ride, when Thorin and co got a headstart riding mountain goals and he catches up with them in no time.

The whole war is a mess in the original. Armies change sizes constantly as well. Heck Ravenhill itself keeps swapping places. Seriously, the whole war feels like different teams with different scripts worked on it lol
 
- No offense taken, I came for feedback, though I have worked on this scene for about a month so I would prefer talking about specific issues and transitions than throwing around general critiques that it’s just choppy or abrupt, which makes me think the whole thing is a failure (which I somehow doubt).

- With regards to geography, if you thought my initial version was fine I’m puzzled how the new one is any different. Thorin still runs up the stonework, fights there for a while, then is hit onto the ice, then next we see he is standing up on the ice facing Azog, then Eagles come and when we return he is still on the ice and close up to Azog, so it never changes or jumps drastically? Kili only runs up the stone stairs and fights there before dying. What geographically inconsistencies are the problem? I can only try to fix potential issues with specific examples. Also, speaking of continuity I also find it a problem how Azog changes weapons out of the blue and how long we see Thorin with Orcrist in my original version. Both of those are basically almost fixed in the new way.

- Regarding Donkey, you did see the initial version of the cut that was presented as a dreamlike montage. I did decide to go back on that even though I really wanted it to work. I was swarmed with negative feedback when testing it which I really didn’t get, but I was inclined to believe that it went a bit too fast. So the visuals are back to normal and I added a bit more fighting, but we still retain the change of the new sad montage and removing most of ice duel.

- I still completely disagree with the Gandalf comments. These shots are what saved the montage for me, and I’ve had them for about 6 months with this being the first I hear of anything feeling off. Before it wasn’t really a montage it felt like a quick scene where our characters teleported. I felt like I got more people commenting on teleporting to Ravenhill before I added these shots.
 
edit: nvm I see you added it in the latest version
 
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I’ve had that since the first version yeah definitely fits well!
 
M4_ said:
I’ve had that since the first version yeah definitely fits well!
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It's been a while since I saw it! Still can't believe that was cut in favor of more alfrid.
 
M4_ said:
- No offense taken, I came for feedback, though I have worked on this scene for about a month so I would prefer talking about specific issues and transitions than throwing around general critiques that it’s just choppy or abrupt, which makes me think the whole thing is a failure (which I somehow doubt).
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Personally, I was always more than okay with your original version of the Azog duel. As I've already stated at some point in our PM correspondence, my only problem with the Battle of the Five Armies, if you can even call it a problem, has always been the Ravenhill transition. Your newest version was much smoother, but I think that it could work much better with some ascending scenes to make it flow better. Show the audience in a quick montage how they got there. Take a look at 04:33 onwards...


Now, I know you wanted to avoid the CG goats, but they're no worse than the war pig Dáin is riding. The action is nothing too fancy or acrobatic and you can always digitally remove Dwalin with some Content-Aware Fill in Adobe After Effects. I believe it can work.
 
@M4_ , I've created the mockup/proof of concept that I mentioned yesterday. It's very rough, but it should get the concept across.

Here it is:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GEB4q0mp9J1WgezK_SVw344ZnHIeuvoM/view?usp=sharing

This version cuts the Thorin/Azog fight down almost as much as your latest preview did (except for a little bit at the beginning), but the same basic concept could still work with more of the Azog/Thorin fight included, possibly intercut with the sad montage and maybe edited to show Thorin continually losing rather than it being a somewhat even fight.

Azog roaring at 0:33 implies that he's about to lunge forward. It has the implication of forward motion (and just previously, an army of Orcs was shown marching forward). Azog's roar/implied lunge cuts to the bats flying forward (more enemy forward motion/advancing). This sequence of events is meant to draw out the concept of the enemy advancing for as many seconds as possible before cutting to the heroes losing (ie, the enemy advance builds up the idea of overwhelming odds, before we see how the heroes are being defeated by said odds - we had previously seen them doing pretty well after Thorin emerged from the fortress, after all). I would suggest adding even more enemy attack footage here, if possible. In my opinion, the more enemy attack footage that can be shown before the heroes losing/dead bodies footage, the better.

Then it cuts to Thrandiul, Gandalf, etc tiring as the fight seems hopeless, then dead bodies (more hopelessness), then Thorin being pinned down by Azog (yet more hopelessness), before the tides turn and hope returns. I think that the cut at 1:53 is a nice transition, as it cuts from Azog's head going still from death to Bilbo's head starting to move as he wakes up.

This way, the emotions of the scene smoothly flow from escalating enemy threat, to imminent defeat, to victory, to the bittersweet final denouement of Thorin witnessing the victory and dying.
 
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hbenthow said:
@M4_ , I've created the mockup/proof of concept that I mentioned yesterday. It's very rough, but it should get the concept across.

Here it is:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GEB4q0mp9J1WgezK_SVw344ZnHIeuvoM/view?usp=sharing

This version cuts the Thorin/Azog fight down almost as much as your latest preview did (except for a little bit at the beginning), but the same basic concept could still work with more of the Azog/Thorin fight included, possibly intercut with the sad montage and maybe edited to show Thorin continually losing rather than it being a somewhat even fight.

Azog roaring at 0:33 implies that he's about to lunge forward. It has the implication of forward motion (and just previously, an army of Orcs was shown marching forward). Azog's roar/implied lunge cuts to the bats flying forward (more enemy forward motion)/advancing. This sequence of events is meant to draw out the concept of the enemy advancing for as many seconds as possible before cutting to the heroes losing (ie, the enemy advance builds up the idea of overwhelming odds, before we see how the heroes are being defeated by said odds - we had previously seen them doing pretty well after Thorin emerged from the fortress, after all). I would suggest adding even more enemy attack footage here, if possible. In my opinion, the more enemy attack footage that can be shown before the heroes losing/dead bodies footage, the better.

Then it cuts to Thrandiul, Gandalf, etc tiring as the fight seems hopeless, then dead bodies (more hopelessness), then Thorin being pinned down by Azog (yet more hopelessness), before the tides turn and hope returns. I think that the cut at 1:53 is a nice transition, as it cuts from Azog's head going still from death to Bilbo's head starting to move as he wakes up.

This way, the emotions of the scene smoothly flow from escalating enemy threat, to imminent defeat, to victory, to the bittersweet final denouement of Thorin witnessing the victory and dying.
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It says I don't have access, make sure to set link to public under share
 
M4_ said:
- No offense taken, I came for feedback, though I have worked on this scene for about a month so I would prefer talking about specific issues and transitions than throwing around general critiques that it’s just choppy or abrupt, which makes me think the whole thing is a failure (which I somehow doubt).

- With regards to geography, if you thought my initial version was fine I’m puzzled how the new one is any different. Thorin still runs up the stonework, fights there for a while, then is hit onto the ice, then next we see he is standing up on the ice facing Azog, then Eagles come and when we return he is still on the ice and close up to Azog, so it never changes or jumps drastically? Kili only runs up the stone stairs and fights there before dying. What geographically inconsistencies are the problem? I can only try to fix potential issues with specific examples. Also, speaking of continuity I also find it a problem how Azog changes weapons out of the blue and how long we see Thorin with Orcrist in my original version. Both of those are basically almost fixed in the new way.
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Honestly I think I just had an embarrassing brain fart. The issue I thought I saw isn't there.
 
No worries I agree that in general the geography flow isn’t amazing but yeah I think the new and old cut both capture it well enough that audiences shouldn’t get confused.

Going to test including the full Thorin duel before ice as the current test clip cuts about half of it.
 
Cool, I will check test clips and my new idea after my trip.

I think the objective is to make the generic Azog vs Thorin fighting shots before the ice battle feel like it’s the main duel, so that means keeping as much as I can of it showing both sides winning and losing at times. If the audience feels tension and weight to their initial duel, then removing the later duel I think will work. Luckily, we also have the Kili fighting and death to splice in which will make the overall fight feel longer
 
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