The Hobbit [M4 Book Edit 2021] [4 Hours]

[DonkeyKonga]

Cool, I will check test clips and my new idea after my trip.

I think the objective is to make the generic Azog vs Thorin fighting shots before the ice battle feel like it’s the main duel, so that means keeping as much as I can of it showing both sides winning and losing at times. If the audience feels tension and weight to their initial duel, then removing the later duel I think will work. Luckily, we also have the Kili fighting and death to splice in which will make the overall fight feel longer

I agree with this approach. I'm assuming you're speaking of the first fight when Azog jumps at Thorin when he runs up to avenge Fili? That part of the fight is far more intense, realistic and dramatic.

 

[M4_]

Yup. And when I call it generic I don’t mean it an insult, because I agree it’s actually far better done (imo) than the later duel. I meant more that it’s just there to show tension and exciting action, as at the end of it both characters still are mostly unscathed.

 

[DonkeyKonga]

Yup. And when I call it generic I don’t mean it an insult, because I agree it’s actually far better done (imo) than the later duel. I meant more that it’s just there to show tension and exciting action, as at the end of it both characters still are mostly unscathed.

I agree. It's generic in the sense that the weapons feel like they are set in realism. It's so strange that Azog would ditch his trusty mace and ditch it for a hugely impractical and unwieldly ball and chain. Where did he even get that from lmao. Just happened to have a HUGE block to a chain lying around that somehow never rusted in a hundred years?

Who knew generic can be a good thing lol. The ice fight reminds me of the Witchking/Eowyn fight, but in a very bad way. Like, it's practically the same setup, just one is executed by people on drugs. In fact, I wouldnt be surprised if they changed his weapon to somehow try and cater to LotR movie fans.
What's worse is that Azog needs to hit the ice dozens of times with full force.. yet he can jump from underneath the ice without any difficulty.

Such a stupid movie, like, pfff. The more I think about that scene the angrier I get. Imagine if they had created this bizarro dream version where Bilbo is in his house and suddenly a bear charges through, he sees a war and fireworks and wakes up to the shreaking of eagles. If only. You can do so much with the source material, and it's not like they PJ doesn't know how to create compelling dreams, either lol.

 

[hbenthow]

I think the objective is to make the generic Azog vs Thorin fighting shots before the ice battle feel like it’s the main duel, so that means keeping as much as I can of it showing both sides winning and losing at times. If the audience feels tension and weight to their initial duel, then removing the later duel I think will work. Luckily, we also have the Kili fighting and death to splice in which will make the overall fight feel longer

That might work. My issue with your latest preview wasn't so much the lack of the ice fight in and of itself, but moreso that it felt like Thorin didn't get a proper final fight scene at all, and while I like the sad montage idea to show the heroes losing in concept, the way the scene cut away from Thorin to the sad montage and didn't let us see him fighting at all until he's losing feels choppy to me (admittedly, the same criticism applies to the first of the two proof of concept/mockup clips that I made as well). Using more of the pre-ice portion of the fight might be able to remedy this somehow.

On a different note, last year, I made this suggestion:

Is there any chance that you would consider also cutting the trolls asking who Gandalf is and if they can eat him after he shouts "The dawn will take you all!"? In my opinion, cutting straight from Gandalf's line to him splitting the rock with his staff flows better and feels much more exciting and majestic without the comedy relief bit in between.

To which you replied:

- Just tried to cut the comedic Troll lines but it butchers the soundtrack build up so I'll opt to leave it in, good idea though

This clip (from the Arkenstone Edition) demonstrates a way to cut the comedic troll lines without (in my opinion) butchering the score:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1gItTvi0EF04dOMbV6kpKoPiCqFH-0bY_/view?usp=sharing

Do you think that this works well, and if so, would you be open to editing the scene this way in your edit?

 

[RcCB626]

It could be a coincidence because Yazneg replaces Azog in Out of the Frying Pan and into the Fire. It could be a reference to how Yazneg's design was going to be Azog's design cause the Dol Goldor Warden's design for Azog is a messy design.

 

[M4_]

You're right it doesn't sound choppy, but it still does mess with the soundtrack timing/crescendo as I originally noticed by changing where the shot where the music finishes "building up," I'll think about it.

Full latest revision of final battle:

 

[DonkeyKonga]

You're right it doesn't sound choppy, but it still does mess with the soundtrack timing/crescendo as I originally noticed by changing where the shot where the music finishes "building up," I'll think about it.

Full latest revision of final battle:

Really, really good imo. The only thing I'm just a bit surprised over is.. why exactly aren't you using the goat sections from either the theatrical or extended to show them go up to Ravenhill? It can easily be edited to flow very nicely, and isn't any less rediculous than a bear getting airdropped from 400 meters.

It would help you cut the Dain Gandalf section a bit cleaner imo. It's good, but I think showing how they got there is worth a shot at least to see how it flows.

Nevertheless very well done!

Also: without a doubt your version of Bilbo going to Ravenhill is the best there is. Best out of any edit, and you can't tell its edited imo. And it's faithful to the books which is a plus!

 

[M4_]

Thanks!

It’s not really about it being ridiculous, it’s more just preference. I don’t like the continuity of these goats appearing and the runtime addition, Balin pulling up on a whole chariot that appears out of nowhere is just as lazy filmmaking as cutting from characters jumping from one location to another in my opinion, even if a bit easier on the eye. I’d rather take the more Tolkien-esque route which is not including them.

 

[DonkeyKonga]

Ah fair enough! Not sure if you're familiar with the EE scenes: but Dains army is shown to have them in it, so it's not quite out of nowhere that they appear.

It's why your edit completely confused me: I had no idea the EE and TE had completely different dwarf army introductionary scenes lol. Had not seen the TE in ages and the Mandela effect kicked in hard.

Congrats on finishing your edit! It's so good!

 

[M4_]

Yep, in the extended you saw the chariots at the start and there is even a sequence with generic Dwarves using them, so I think using them later is justified.

In theatrical we do see like 6 goat riders in between the formations of Dwarves when they first show up, but then when Thorin pulls up with them we never had established that these goats existed in any close ups so to me that felt lazy. It would also feel lazy if I didn’t establish the chariots and used them later, and that would be on me.

Though, in both cases when the Dwarves retreat we can see they are just soldiers on foot left so it still breaks continuity in both cases but I’ll agree it doesn’t feel as bad in extended because of how established the chariots were.

Some ideas floating around:
-I will try one more time to see if I can remove the cut-to-black even though it’s a pretty common film technique. Maybe add another shot of heroes fighting cutting to the dead woman
-See if possible to show any bits more of Azog and Thorin fighting on ice without actually including the full duel, such as Azog yelling and charging at him
-See if possible to show heroes winning when Eagles show up, but probably not possible

 

[hbenthow]

Some ideas floating around:
-I will try one more time to see if I can remove the cut-to-black even though it’s a pretty common film technique.

The cut to black doesn't work very well there, in my opinion.

I'm also not sure about the music choice in the montage. I think that sad music might work better than tense music, at least with the montage being as short as it is and not intercut with any other action (such as Thorin fighting Azog). The transition to the montage feels a bit abrupt to me, and maybe the music is part of why.

-See if possible to show any bits more of Azog and Thorin fighting on ice without actually including the full duel, such as Azog yelling and charging at him

That would be ideal, if possible. Even your latest preview with the added Thorin/Azog fighting still feels jarring when it suddenly shows Thorin pinned down on the ice without showing any of what led to that.

-See if possible to show heroes winning when Eagles show up, but probably not possible

Have you considered having the Eagles show up only after Thorin gets stabbed and kills Azog? In my opinion, it works better that way. It makes Thorin's self-sacrifice feel like the decisive turning point of the battle, after which the Eagles show up to finish the job.

 

[DonkeyKonga]

There actually is a cut to black during Thorins nightmare about gold as well. So it's objectively in line with PJs editing style, from a technical standpoint.

 

[M4_]

There actually is a cut to black during Thorins nightmare about gold as well. So it's objectively in line with PJs editing style, from a technical standpoint.

Yeah. And it’s also in Mirkwood when Bilbo gets captured. I understand not preferring a cut to black, but I do think it’s odd to say that it doesn’t fit at all. I think the music building up and also matching up with the cuts, then the music passing it’s crescendo and fading as we cut to black is pretty cool.

I know it is possible to cut it so the Eagles show up after Azogs death but I don’t think it’s as cinematic. Also, there are some continuity issues with it.

The point with the Eagles is that it’s finally a ray of shining sun after we have been brought to a low (dwarves dying, thorin still not winning). It instills hope, so I think once Thorin is already wounded, when the Eagles show up I feel like “what’s the point,” Thorin has already completed his mission. If we want the Eagles to have the most emotional impact, we would want them to come before our conflicts are resolved. It also gives us a moment where we think Thorin might survive. I don’t think it really gives the idea that Thorin is the one to “save the day” because obviously there are 1000s of Orcs that only the Eagles can kill. I see Thorin stabbing Azog as twisting the knife of the fatal blow delivered by the Eagles.

 

[DonkeyKonga]

Yeah. And it’s also in Mirkwood when Bilbo gets captured. I understand not preferring a cut to black, but I do think it’s odd to say that it doesn’t fit at all. I think the music building up and also matching up with the cuts, then the music passing it’s crescendo and fading as we cut to black is pretty cool.

I know it is possible to cut it so the Eagles show up after Azogs death but I don’t think it’s as cinematic. Also, there are some continuity issues with it.

The point with the Eagles is that it’s finally a ray of shining sun after we have been brought to a low (dwarves dying, thorin still not winning). It instills hope, so I think once Thorin is already wounded, when the Eagles show up I feel like “what’s the point,” Thorin has already completed his mission. If we want the Eagles to have the most emotional impact, we would want them to come before our conflicts are resolved. It also gives us a moment where we think Thorin might survive. I don’t think it really gives the idea that Thorin is the one to “save the day” because obviously there are 1000s of Orcs that only the Eagles can kill. I see Thorin stabbing Azog as twisting the knife of the fatal blow delivered by the Eagles.

I think the film establishes pretty clearly that Azog is calling the shots and that killing him will help them beat an army that's leaderless. The flags and horns, the commands and the 'cut the head of the snake' comment are pretty much giveaways in that regard.

Imo the film made a big mistake with the army sizes that's really not fixable. The orc armies are simply waaay too big, and imo the orcs should have been armorless. I get it's done to make rendering easier, but them in fill armor makes them seem like Uruk Hai and unbeatable. The villagers shouldn't even have a fighting chance tbh.

 

[M4_]

Even your latest preview with the added Thorin/Azog fighting still feels jarring when it suddenly shows Thorin pinned down on the ice without showing any of what led to that

Before moving forward with more tests, I want to address this. Nothing will ever fix it, I don't get why we keep coming back to this point. Since 2021, it has always been the same flow: Thorin/Azog stare off -> Eagles/Beorn arrive -> Thorin is knocked down. Why is it a problem now? In both versions we had to assume Thorin/Azog fought off screen, which is not something outlandish. The audio is smooth, the shot flow is fine except for we wish there was just 1 shot that doesn't exist, that's fan editing for you.

I can keep experimenting and throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks, but it won't change that there are only 3 options for this exact moment: You either have it happen off screen with no continuity errors, you splice it with the stone flail which has continuity errors, or you leave it the same as Peter Jackson which ridiculously defies physics. All 3 have problems, all 3 are valid in their own ways, but for my preferences I have chosen the 1st.

EXCEPT I do have one more idea. But after that I'm done with this part.

 

[hbenthow]

Before moving forward with more tests, I want to address this. Nothing will ever fix it, I don't get why we keep coming back to this point. Since 2021, it has always been the same flow: Thorin/Azog stare off -> Eagles/Beorn arrive -> Thorin is knocked down. Why is it a problem now? In both versions we had to assume Thorin/Azog fought off screen, which is not something outlandish.

In your previous versions, there was much more footage of Thorin and Azog fighting before the Eagles showed up, including multiple parts in which Thorin fell down and had to struggle to get up. That way, when it cut back to him pinned down by Azog after the Eagles scene, it felt much more natural and self-explanatory. The footage you had included of the ice/flail fight felt like proper setup for it. With it gone and nothing that really works as a substitutionary setup, the scene just doesn't feel right/properly set up to me.

I can keep experimenting and throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks, but it won't change that there are only 3 options for this exact moment: You either have it happen off screen with no continuity errors, you splice it with the stone flail which has continuity errors, or you leave it the same as Peter Jackson which ridiculously defies physics. All 3 have problems, but for my preferences I have chosen the 1st.

Fair enough. I guess for me, the problems with the stone flail bother me less than the problems with the other two options. Your last version of the Book Edit was almost perfect for me.

Regardless of whatever editing decisions you wind up going with, might you leave your previous version uploaded (with a version number to indicate that it's an older version) in addition to uploading your new one, so people can choose which one they prefer?

 

[DonkeyKonga]

You're right it doesn't sound choppy, but it still does mess with the soundtrack timing/crescendo as I originally noticed by changing where the shot where the music finishes "building up," I'll think about it.

Full latest revision of final battle:

I've watched it a few more times and I think showing the transition to Thorin on his back is not needed for the approach here. There is no need for you to show a close-up of him on his back at the 15.50 Mark. It feels a bit choppy because he's obviously not looking at azog. I'd suggest cutting this shot and open it on Thorin slowly getting up.

 

[M4_]

I've watched it a few more times and I think showing the transition to Thorin on his back is not needed for the approach here. There is no need for you to show a close-up of him on his back. I'd suggest cutting this shot and open it on Thorin slowly getting up.

Hmm, so you think there should be no shot of Thorin there? Because that's the only shot that works there, the shot of him getting up is used after the cut-to-black which I don't want to move to earlier. The only other shot of him on the ice would be when he is fighting Orcs running at him

 

[DonkeyKonga]

Hmm, so you think there should be no shot of Thorin there? Because that's the only shot that works there, the shot of him getting up is used after the cut-to-black which I don't want to move to earlier. The only other shot of him on the ice would be when he is fighting Orcs running at him

I mean, I would at least consider trying to cut it completely. It's an obvious visual inconsistency because their eyelines don't match.

It all depends on how much of a sucker for visual consistency you are, though. I always aim for a cut that's as close to an 'official release' look and feel as possible. But this particular scene is such a headache (as you know, I've struggled with it myself haha)

 

[DonkeyKonga]

Can't you use the shot of legolas POV looking at thorin from below and remove the approaching orc with visual trickery?

the shot at 2.58 shouldnt be hard to edit with an orc: