Star Wars - The Force Awakens (SPOILERS Thread)

[geminigod]

Sorry to be picky but...

I never said it wasn't (Although parts were shot with iMAX cameras)

Parts were shot in IMAX? Cool! I didn't notice. Good to know. Does the screen size change at certain points like with the Dark Knight or did they crop it??

I have only seen TFA in 2D or iMAX-3D. But from previous experiences, the iMAX-3D system has always looked superior to my eyes than the other general multiplex systems.

Whatever floats your boat. Cinema is like food preferences. If you think it looks better on IMAX, then for you it is better. For me it is not. I think fast action on IMAX with standard film looks terrible. Especially if I am close to the screen and especially especially if it is 3D. I have had issues before with blurriness at 3D IMAX, headaches from eye strain, etc. Not a fan. I am not 100% on the science here but I attribute it to the stretched out image, insufficient FPS, and weird viewing angles to the screen.

 

[DigModiFicaTion]

The lightsaber battle had a very noticeable shift in look. I believe that was an IMAX scene.

 

[TV's Frink]

One reviewer made this comment and everyone latched onto it. I suspect those that claim she's a Mary Sue don't even know what it means.

Isn't that Peter Parker's girl?

I don't follow Superman very closely.

 

[Gatos]

Isn't that Peter Parker's girl?

I don't follow Superman very closely.

Legit lol.

 

[DominicCobb]

The lightsaber battle had a very noticeable shift in look. I believe that was an IMAX scene.

It wasn't. There was one IMAX scene: the Falcon chase sequence on Jakku. It was awesome. The AR shifts to take up the whole screen if you're one of the lucky ones seeing it on film. If you're seeing it digital, the AR is slightly cropped, 1.9:1 I think.

 

[Gaith]

If I may interquote, to simplify things...

I saw that video the other day. I like Max Landis's passion, but I absolutely do not agree with Rey being what he calls a "Marie Sue". (a character that can do no wrong for plot convenience)

- Rey knows how to fight because if not she would die, living this life style on Jakku. Sure, but brawling and parrying sword thrusts are two very different things. She's oddly adept at swordsmanship based on what we know of her so far.
- Rey knows how to pilot the Falcon because she knows the ship. Probably worked on it before for Unkar Plutt. And as a scavenger, she knows every piece of machinery. IIRC, we have no indication she worked on the Falcon specifically, whose defining feature in traditional SW canon is that Han personalized it up the wazoo, so even a general proficiency with fixing ships wouldn't be a huge help. And I don't recall any indication she ever flew a ship before, never mind one as big as the Falcon.

[...] I think she's stronger with the Force than anyone.

I'm sure she is - it certainly fits with JJ's "bigger and faster above all" mentality. But saying that she's probably so awesome because she's so very Force-sensitive is as much explaining what makes her a Mary Sue than denying she is one. As Landis points out, Luke pretty much only used the Force to fire that Death Star shot in ANH, and on Hoth, which canon states is three years later (though I think not so long myself), he's still having trouble with simple telekinesis. Rey's seemingly instant prowess and competencies are indeed thrilling, and they help to maintain the rollercoaster pace JJ is obsessed with, but there's a real price paid in subtlety and in-universe consistency.

(Also, you forgot that she can not only speak droid but apparently Wookie, too?! That was a nice moment, but was it really necessary? Has she been studying Wookie tapes, or does her instant Force mastery encompass Babel Fish-like translation abilities? )

One reviewer made this comment and everyone latched onto it. I suspect those that claim she's a Mary Sue don't even know what it means.

I know its origin, and I know that its dominant use has evolved from just being self-insert fanfic characters to generally ridiculously competent characters. Terms change over time.

Mary Sue is an offensive term because it's not applied equally to men.

Men usually get to be sole primary protagonists of their own movies rather than equal members of an ensemble like Rey. Take Eggsy in Kingsman; he had help from a badass female peer, but the movie was primarily about his training and journey. Also, male protagonists don't have the burden of being primary role models for their gender. So they rarely get the opportunity to be Gary Stus for other, equally sexist reasons. Furthermore, vis-a-vis JJ movies, lots of people raised eyebrows and/or complained about Kirk going from cadet on probation to captain of the Starfleet flagship in the course of a few days and one mission.

I'm glad we got a kickass heroine this time around, and Ridley is a great find, no question. Indeed, I would have totally dug it if the movie had been mainly about her as in my alternate plot suggestion in post #268, with mere cameos from all of our Big Three. So it's not sexist to point out that her unexplained and omni-super-competence is awfully convenient from a screenwriting perspective.

 

[DominicCobb]

Her skills with the staff likely translated well the the saber.

Sure there's indication that she worked on the Falcon specifically. She knows that Unbar Plutt installed a compressor or whatever mumbo jumbo. No reason to believe she never worked on the Falcon, quite a few reasons to believe she did. As for her ability to fly it - Luke says he's not such a bad pilot himself and then becomes the hero of the Battle of Yavin. Rey calls herself a pilot too, and why couldn't she be if Luke was?

Why can't Rey know Wookiee? It seems like the most time she spends with others is at the Niima outpost, where we see a variety of different species with a variety of different languages. If she wanted to communicate with others, she would need to learn their language. And who's to say she's fluent in Wookiee anyway? We see her respond to Chewie once. Maybe she just got the general idea of what he was saying?

The problem with the Mary Sue label is not that it describes an OP/flawless character (which I would argue Rey isn't, anyway), it's that the term and criticism typically only gets trotted out for female characters, as if it's less believable for females to be OP and that any person who writes an OP female character is just an obvious feminazi (or whatever MRA fucktards are calling them these days) trying to promote some sort of "agenda."

The JJTrek comparison is a good one. I don't have a problem with people complaining that Rey was too powerful too soon (I'm still not completely okay with the mind trick scene), but it really shouldn't have anything to do with her gender. The Kirk complaint was valid too, but you didn't hear people complain that he was a Gary Stu because of this or that JJ was pushing some sort of agenda.

 

[TMBTM]

But saying that she's probably so awesome because she's so very Force-sensitive is as much explaining what makes her a Mary Sue than denying she is one.

I tried, with many points, to explained why she is strong at what she's doing (part a learning curve and part "the Force") and yet I was sure you'd came with that sentence "oh, the Force.... convenient!"
Yes, it IS the mighty Force. It is Star Wars. Not our every day world.
She's awesome because the character have a purpose of being awesome. Like Bruce Willis in Unbreakable or pretty much every superheroes who are "born awesome".
Luke learned to become powerfull. Rey is born powerfull and is discovering it. Even though, us old fans prefer to think that you need to "learn the Force", I think it is pretty much canon that one can simply be "strong with the Force". Leia is, somehow, and without any training as far as I know.
During the OT we learned about the Force at the same time as Luke. But you can't repeat that learning phase again over movies 7, 8 and 9. To keep the story interesting and moving forward you need a powerfull character right now.

EDIT:
I think it's also why we have the character of Finn along with her. Being more "normal" than Rey he's a character the audience needs to have. He struggles more, he have more doubts. While Rey is more following a path that seems writen for her. That's why some could see her as "too talented". But I just see it as being who she is.

 

[TV's Frink]

So it's not sexist to point out that her unexplained and omni-super-competence is awfully convenient from a screenwriting perspective.

You are missing the point. Take your Kirk example. People may complain about his quick journey - but no one labels him with a sexist term because of it.

Calling her a Mary Sue, whether I agree with it or not (I don't), is at best lazy, and at worst sexist.

 

[TV's Frink]

 

[TMBTM]

Come on. For one I have to support Gaith about the supposed sexism around the "Marie Sue" thing.
(Honnestly I thought your were joking, Frink and Q2 when you talked about sexism.)
To me "Marie Sue" is just an expression, so it can be used for men and women. It's just that the origin of the expression is a female character. "Marie Sue", the expression has no genre. Stop to see sexism in every thing.
Example:
- "Arnold Schwarzenegger in Conan the Barbarian is awesome, but he's a Marie Sue in Conan the Destroyer." (and no, Marie Sue is not the equivalent of "Sissy" here. So it's not homophobic either. Mmmmkay?
- "Rey is awesome to some fans, but other think she's a Marie Sue".

 

[ThrowgnCpr]

sorry, but I'm going to have to go with Frink and Q2 on this one. It's a sexist term, if it weren't it wouldn't be called "Mary Sue." Beyond that it is a really weak argument.

 

[TV's Frink]

Come on. For one I have to support Gaith about the supposed sexism around the "Marie Sue" thing.
(Honnestly I thought your were joking, Frink and Q2 when you talked about sexism.)
To me "Marie Sue" is just an expression, so it can be used for men and women. It's just that the origin of the expression is a female character. "Marie Sue", the expression has no genre. Stop to see sexism in every thing.
Example:
- "Arnold Schwarzenegger in Conan the Barbarien is awesome, but he's a Marie Sue in Conan the Destroyer." (and no, Marie Sue is not the equivalent of "Sissy" here. So it's not homophobic either. Mmmmkay?
- "Rey is awesome to some fans, but other think she's a Marie Sue".

I've never heard it used for a man. Doesn't matter if it could be, it isn't. There are plenty of phrases that "are just an expression" that we shouldn't be using because they really aren't just an expression. This is one of those.

 

[ThrowgnCpr]

Randal would probably argue that Mary Sue isn't a sexist term

 

[TMBTM]

sorry, but I'm going to have to go with Frink and Q2 on this one. It's a sexist term, if it weren't it wouldn't be called "Mary Sue." Beyond that it is a really weak argument.

Yes it is a weak argument. But it is based on the name of a character who was called Marie Sue to begin with. A romantic girl, perfect in every way, etc...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Sue
That said the definition of wikipedia is not exatly the one Max Landis gave either.

To me if a Marie Sue charcater is "someone who is perfect and can do no wrong", then it can be applied to men and women. But that's just me maybe.
So for all who still don't like the fact that it's a girl's name, there are already variations: Marty Stu or Gary Stu, for when you need the expression to be applied to men. But to me THAT is even more close to sexism. To create a DIFFERENT word just to apply it for a male because it can otherwise be seen as sexist... damn, if we start to think like that sexism will never end.

 

[thecuddlyninja]

It's just that the origin of the expression is a female character. "Marie Sue", the expression has no genre.

I don't think a negative expression created based on a stereotypical female name is gender-neutral.

"Rey is awesome to some fans, but other think she's a Marie Sue".

Literally never heard anybody say this about any male role ever in any conversation I've had. Pointing something out in one direction but not the other isn't hateful, but it's prejudice by omission. Also, creating a name for anybody being uncharacteristically good at something is silly to me. Nobody acts realistically in movies or TV. Something that is 10% true to a job or situation or anything is hailed as realistic. I mean, I've seen hundreds of movies that people rave about the realistic action and yet I've only seen one character ever go into shock from the horror of people dying around him,

Reveal message

Captain Phillips.

That's also, for me, the most emotional I have ever been watching any movie.

Anyway, Star Wars, y'all. I feel so ashamed for being underwhelmed by the score upon first viewing. It's much more subtle but fantastic, following the action and emotion pretty much perfectly.

 

[ThrowgnCpr]

Literally never heard anybody say this about any male role ever in any conversation I've had. Pointing something out in one direction but not the other isn't hateful, but it's prejudice by omission. Also, creating a name for anybody being uncharacteristically good at something is silly to me. Nobody acts realistically in movies or TV. Something that is 10% true to a job or situation or anything is hailed as realistic. I mean, I've seen hundreds of movies that people rave about the realistic action and yet I've only seen one character ever go into shock from the horror of people dying around him, [redacted, see spoiler]. That's also, for me, the most emotional I have ever been watching any movie.

^ completely THIS. The exact reason why it is a sexist term. Unrealistic characters have existed in cinema since the dawn of film, and you never ever hear any similar argument for a male character, and let's face it, if you are going to use that "non-sexist" definition of Mary Sue, the majority of male protagonists in action movies are Mary Sues. But you don't. Put a woman in those shoes, and BAM, now we have a problem.

I'm not one to get on a soapbox and trumpet the equality horn, but come one. Arguing that Mary Sue isn't a sexist term is ludicrous.

 

[TMBTM]

You guyz are too politically correct for me.
But I still love ya.

 

[TV's Frink]

Put a woman in those shoes, and BAM, now we have a problem.

Woman in shoes? All women care about is shoes? Sexist pig!

 

[addiesin]

Yeah, it's a sexist term, which has been explained well so I won't get into that side of it, but it's also being used incorrectly.
The Mary Sue definition doesn't even apply to Rey. People using the term are stretching it to fit their needs instead of going by what it actually means. A Mary Sue or male equivalent, is a childish, poorly written non character with no personality, no flaws, and no problems, who basically glides through a plot without any doubt that they'll make it. It's the equivalent of that one kid you used to play "imaginary laser guns" with who always shot you but could never be shot. It's the equivalent of North Korea's dictator's claims that his body is so efficient he doesn't even need to poop.
I find it insulting and hyperbolic that so many people grab on to this term and use it to try to describe Rey, as though she had no struggles, no doubts, no need to survive. There's a difference between being AWESOME AT EVERYTHING and being simply capable of survival. Rey is the latter, and is exactly the kind of character Star Wars should have.
But hey, insulting and hyperbolic, I think that kind of defines a big chunk of the internet today, at least any site with a comment section.