Star Wars - Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker (SPOILERS WITHIN)

[TV's Frink]

Why does it matter who gave Chewie the medal, or even what medal it was?

The Rebels made an error by not giving him one.  Maz fixed it.

 

[Gaith]

Ben was so tempted by the Dark Side that he became a school shooter

Really unnecessary man.

How so? Is it inaccurate, because he maybe used a lightsaber and not a blaster to kill his fellow students? Or were you talking to Abrams/Kennedy/Kasdan for writing that plot point in the first place?

 

[TV's Frink]

Come on Gaith.

 

[Gaith]

Ben Solo killing his fellow child students isn't a minor detail, like the matter of war profiteers living it up in Canto Bight; it's the inciting incident for the whole ST, so I think it's fair to point out just how skittish the movies are in reckoning with it in any way. None of the dead are ever named, let alone seen in flashbacks or heard as ghosts in the finale, the so-called Knights of Ren (presumably his surviving fellow students) become mooks as random and unimportant as Snoke's guards, and Ben doesn't even express any explicit remorse over his murders (let alone the Hosnian System dead) on his way to being redeemed by his mother's love and a pretty young woman's crush, with a emo kiss of death to put a cherry on top of his character arc. Ergo, this isn't something we can sweep under the rug if we're going to have thoughtful conversations about the ST just because of this board's anti-real-world-politics policy.

For me, then, one of the reasons TRoS is ultimately marginally more successful than TFA and TLJ is it's at least somewhat honest about not wanting to engage with all this in any way, tossing out a "Palpatine's behind it all!" and re-focusing on the real problem of the Emperor having been recuperating and plotting his comeback the whole time (and maybe even directly infecting Ben's mind, such that his actions weren't really him). That said, the decision to make Leia and Han's only kid a Dark Side child murderer was a lazy and unfortunate one that I think more creative writers would have been wise enough to pass up altogether. But that's, just, my opinion, man.

 

[wilhelm scream]

Ben Solo killing his fellow child students isn't a minor detail, like the matter of war profiteers living it up in Canto Bight; it's the inciting incident for the whole ST, so I think it's fair to point out just how skittish the movies are in reckoning with it in any way. None of the dead are ever named, let alone seen in flashbacks or heard as ghosts in the finale, the so-called Knights of Ren (presumably his surviving fellow students) become mooks as random and unimportant as Snoke's guards, and Ben doesn't even express any explicit remorse over his murders (let alone the Hosnian System dead) on his way to being redeemed by his mother's love and a pretty young woman's crush, with a emo kiss of death to put a cherry on top of his character arc. Ergo, this isn't something we can sweep under the rug if we're going to have thoughtful conversations about the ST just because of this board's anti-real-world-politics policy.

For me, then, one of the reasons TRoS is ultimately marginally more successful than TFA and TLJ is it's at least somewhat honest about not wanting to engage with all this in any way, tossing out a "Palpatine's behind it all!" and re-focusing on the real problem of the Emperor having been recuperating and plotting his comeback the whole time (and maybe even directly infecting Ben's mind, such that his actions weren't really him). That said, the decision to make Leia and Han's only kid a Dark Side child murderer was a lazy and unfortunate one that I think more creative writers would have been wise enough to pass up altogether. But that's, just, my opinion, man.

And to make it even lazier, it's what happened to their son Jacen Solo in Star Wars Legends (during the Legacy of the Force series). And even then, at least they had 2 other children were did not fall to the dark side (Jaina and Anakin Solo).

 

[Siliconmaster]

And to make it even lazier, it's what happened to their son Jacen Solo in Star Wars Legends (during the Legacy of the Force series). And even then, at least they had 2 other children were did not fall to the dark side (Jaina and Anakin Solo).

Not only that, but Legacy of the Force was (in my opinion) the aforementioned crashing and burning of the EU as it realized it had to tell additional character arcs in order to keep up what NJO had started. So what if we retold Anakin's fall, but better?

Spoiler alert: It was not better.

And then they chose that book series to take inspiration from.

And then picked Dark Empire to follow it up with. At this rate I half expect to see an adaptation of Darksaber next, with the Hutts flying a giant Death Star laser pointer around.

 

[wilhelm scream]

And to make it even lazier, it's what happened to their son Jacen Solo in Star Wars Legends (during the Legacy of the Force series). And even then, at least they had 2 other children were did not fall to the dark side (Jaina and Anakin Solo).

Not only that, but Legacy of the Force was (in my opinion) the aforementioned crashing and burning of the EU as it realized it had to tell additional character arcs in order to keep up what NJO had started. So what if we retold Anakin's fall, but better?

Spoiler alert: It was not better.

And then they chose that book series to take inspiration from.

And then picked Dark Empire to follow it up with. At this rate I half expect to see an adaptation of Darksaber next, with the Hutts flying a giant Death Star laser pointer around.

Could have been worse, originally it was going to be Anakin Solo who fell (before Lucas forced them to change it to Jacen).

And I wouldn't have minded it if they hadn't killed my favourite Legends character: Mara Jade.

To me, Legends ends chronologically with Surrivor's Quest (even if I do like the Legacy comics).

Also, in Discanon, why did Han and Leia name their son Ben, when neither of them were close to Kenobi (in legends, it was Luke and Mara's child who was named Ben).

 

[TV's Frink]

Ben Solo killing his fellow child students isn't a minor detail, like the matter of war profiteers living it up in Canto Bight; it's the inciting incident for the whole ST, so I think it's fair to point out just how skittish the movies are in reckoning with it in any way. None of the dead are ever named, let alone seen in flashbacks or heard as ghosts in the finale, the so-called Knights of Ren (presumably his surviving fellow students) become mooks as random and unimportant as Snoke's guards, and Ben doesn't even express any explicit remorse over his murders (let alone the Hosnian System dead) on his way to being redeemed by his mother's love and a pretty young woman's crush, with a emo kiss of death to put a cherry on top of his character arc. Ergo, this isn't something we can sweep under the rug if we're going to have thoughtful conversations about the ST just because of this board's anti-real-world-politics policy.

I find this a poor reason to invoke real-world school shootings.  It's not about the anti-real-world-politics policy, it's my personal distaste at framing it the way you did.  So be it.

 

[Warbler]

OK, I ended up writing 3 ½ pages, but much of what I was going to say has already been covered by other people, so I’ll just stick to points that I think are unique.

Reveal message

--This wasn’t a make-or-break moment for me, but I wish we had gotten the 20th Century Fox logo at the beginning, now that Disney owns the rights. 

--So after being secret for so long, why did the Emperor broadcast himself across the galaxy? And if Vader could call to Luke across the galaxy, why can’t the Emperor just call to Kylo Ren? It seems like getting Kylo’s attention was his only end goal. 

--I’m surprised that others were unhappy with how Carrie Fisher’s footage was used in this movie. I thought it was pretty seamless, in addition to being respectful. And instead of just a pointless cameo, her story was used to move the plot forward (the emotional impact of her passing, as felt in the Force, was a key moment in Kylo/Ben’s turn). And kudos to Disney for managing to keep Harrison Ford’s cameo a secret!

--Since C-3PO is probably my favorite character, I’m thrilled with the way he was handled in this movie. He’s finally useful to the plot of a Star Wars movie for the first time since 1983! Not only does he move the plot forward, but he makes a selfless decision (“Taking one last look at my friends”), even though we all knew he’d get his memory back in the end. He even translates another alien’s language (this protocol droid hasn’t translated for anyone but R2-D2 in decades). His comic relief is also legitimately funny this time. 

--It was said that John Williams was going to incorporate all the major themes from the previous movies into this one, but I didn’t really hear very much, except for the Imperial Theme once or twice, and the Force theme over and over again. My son also heard some of “Battle of the Heroes” in Rey’s training. Granted, I don’t want themes shoehorned in where they don’t belong, but it was a marketing gaffe to tell us to expect all these themes if they weren’t going to be there. At any rate, I enjoyed the new dark chorus that we hear during the Emperor’s scenes.

--Did it anyone else find it weird that the big alien with tentacles coming out of his head (who’s apparently named Klaud) was featured in early promotional art, and then showed up in the early moments of the film as if everyone already knew who he was...and then he vanished until the final celebration? I wonder if he was a casualty of the editing room. That said, I was worried that he’d be the new Jar-Jar, so at least that didn’t happen. But none of the new aliens introduced in these films made an impression on me.

--We made it through an entire trilogy without knowing where Coruscant is or what happened to it. There was a big city-like planet that got blown up in The Force Awakens. Why didn’t the filmmakers just have that be Coruscant? They had no plans for it otherwise, and that would have made the destruction more impactful on the audience.

--Rather than making Finn into another Force-sensitive person, I think it would have been much more interesting if Finn knew which ship to go after in the big battle because, as a former Stormtrooper, he has inner working knowledge of Imperial strategy. That’s a crucial part of his personality that was completely forgotten about, and would have been more interesting than just “I feel it.”

...You know what, as it is, this is still pretty long. I guess I'll post a Part 2.

Why are you using spoiler tags in this thread?  The thread clearly says spoilers within.  I think it can be safely assumed that anyone reading this thread either has already seen the movie or doesn't care about having it spoiled for them.

 

[Siliconmaster]

Could have been worse, originally it was going to be Anakin Solo who fell (before Lucas forced them to change it to Jacen).

And I wouldn't have minded it if they hadn't killed my favourite Legends character: Mara Jade.

To me, Legends ends chronologically with Surrivor's Quest (even if I do like the Legacy comics).

Also, in Discanon, why did Han and Leia name their son Ben, when neither of them were close to Kenobi (in legends, it was Luke and Mara's child who was named Ben).

Oh wow that would have been immensely stupid.

And yeah, I was honestly on board with the series until it reached the "well he is kind of evil now" point. And when it gets to that, you can keep playing the "but he's just seeing things from a different point of view" game, which they had been doing decently up until that point, or you can decide the character is Evil now. Just like Lucas in RotS, they chose the latter.

Legacy of the Force spoilers (you should probably spoil yours too in case there's anyone who hasn't read them and wants to):

Reveal message

And then he killed Mara [See "Kick the Dog" and "Jumping Off the Slippery Slope"] and I was like OK that's it, I'll finish your damned book series and then I'm out. This is no longer my EU and you are now killing primary and beloved characters to make a plot point.

[/quote]

 

[wilhelm scream]

Could have been worse, originally it was going to be Anakin Solo who fell (before Lucas forced them to change it to Jacen).

And I wouldn't have minded it if they hadn't killed my favourite Legends character: Mara Jade.

To me, Legends ends chronologically with Surrivor's Quest (even if I do like the Legacy comics).

Also, in Discanon, why did Han and Leia name their son Ben, when neither of them were close to Kenobi (in legends, it was Luke and Mara's child who was named Ben).

Oh wow that would have been immensely stupid.

And yeah, I was honestly on board with the series until it reached the "well he is kind of evil now" point. And when it gets to that, you can keep playing the "but he's just seeing things from a different point of view" game, which they had been doing decently up until that point, or you can Kick the Dog and decide the character is Evil now. Just like Lucas in RotS, they chose the latter.

And then he

Reveal message

killed Mara

and I was like OK that's it, I'll finish your damned book series and then I'm out. This is no longer my EU and you are now killing primary and beloved characters to make a plot point.

If it wasn't for the prequels and the amazing EU it inspired (e.g. 2d Clone Wars, Knights of the old republic, etc), the eu might have died again (like it did in the early 80's with the cheesy Marvel comics).

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

This is just kinda reinforcing my feeling that the EU ruined many people for the ST.

 

[wilhelm scream]

This is just kinda reinforcing my feeling that the EU ruined many people for the ST.

Well I didn't discover the EU until after TLJ, and the ST was ruined for me before then.

 

[TV's Frink]

This is just kinda reinforcing my feeling that the EU ruined many people for the ST.

Well I didn't discover the EU until after TLJ, and the ST was ruined for me before then.

Well I still haven't discovered the EU and I like the ST.

With that said, this discussion can continue in the general SW thread if you guys like.

 

[Siliconmaster]

To me, Legends ends chronologically with Surrivor's Quest (even if I do like the Legacy comics).

Oh, you don't like the NJO? I personally view the EU as a classic era of adventure stories and trilogies leading up to a climactic event via the New Jedi Order series (a la Infinity War and Endgame for the MCU, which I personally quite enjoy). So NJO serves as a perfect cap for the EU, and I ignore anything after.

If it wasn't for the prequels and the amazing EU it inspired (e.g. 2d Clone Wars, Knights of the old republic, etc), the eu might have died again (like it did in the early 80's with the cheesy Marvel comics).

 
Sure, I even stopped reading the books after that. I tried reading some of the new stuff, and it was ok, but the poor authors bear most of the weight of trying to figure out what the heck happened between VI and VIII, and it really shows.

This is just kinda reinforcing my feeling that the EU ruined many people for the ST.

Eh, maybe, but if anything it made me excited to get a clean slate without the ragged remnants of the EU dragging behind. TLJ Luke delivered exactly that.

With that said, this discussion can continue in the general SW thread if you guys like.

Yep sorry, was just trying to get back on track.

 

[Warbler]

Ben Solo killing his fellow child students isn't a minor detail, like the matter of war profiteers living it up in Canto Bight; it's the inciting incident for the whole ST, so I think it's fair to point out just how skittish the movies are in reckoning with it in any way. None of the dead are ever named, let alone seen in flashbacks or heard as ghosts in the finale, the so-called Knights of Ren (presumably his surviving fellow students) become mooks as random and unimportant as Snoke's guards, and Ben doesn't even express any explicit remorse over his murders (let alone the Hosnian System dead) on his way to being redeemed by his mother's love and a pretty young woman's crush, with a emo kiss of death to put a cherry on top of his character arc. Ergo, this isn't something we can sweep under the rug if we're going to have thoughtful conversations about the ST just because of this board's anti-real-world-politics policy.

For me, then, one of the reasons TRoS is ultimately marginally more successful than TFA and TLJ is it's at least somewhat honest about not wanting to engage with all this in any way, tossing out a "Palpatine's behind it all!" and re-focusing on the real problem of the Emperor having been recuperating and plotting his comeback the whole time (and maybe even directly infecting Ben's mind, such that his actions weren't really him). That said, the decision to make Leia and Han's only kid a Dark Side child murderer was a lazy and unfortunate one that I think more creative writers would have been wise enough to pass up altogether. But that's, just, my opinion, man.

Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the Knights of Ren still Dark Side and working for the Emperor at the time Ben killed them?  
Weren't they trying to prevent Ben from getting to the Emperor and Rey?  Can you really call Ben killing them murder?   I know that it is murder any more than Han and Luke shooting Storm Troopers on the Death Star in ANH.   Also how much remorse did Anakin show in ROTJ?

 

[TV's Frink]

Ben Solo killing his fellow child students isn't a minor detail, like the matter of war profiteers living it up in Canto Bight; it's the inciting incident for the whole ST, so I think it's fair to point out just how skittish the movies are in reckoning with it in any way. None of the dead are ever named, let alone seen in flashbacks or heard as ghosts in the finale, the so-called Knights of Ren (presumably his surviving fellow students) become mooks as random and unimportant as Snoke's guards, and Ben doesn't even express any explicit remorse over his murders (let alone the Hosnian System dead) on his way to being redeemed by his mother's love and a pretty young woman's crush, with a emo kiss of death to put a cherry on top of his character arc. Ergo, this isn't something we can sweep under the rug if we're going to have thoughtful conversations about the ST just because of this board's anti-real-world-politics policy.

For me, then, one of the reasons TRoS is ultimately marginally more successful than TFA and TLJ is it's at least somewhat honest about not wanting to engage with all this in any way, tossing out a "Palpatine's behind it all!" and re-focusing on the real problem of the Emperor having been recuperating and plotting his comeback the whole time (and maybe even directly infecting Ben's mind, such that his actions weren't really him). That said, the decision to make Leia and Han's only kid a Dark Side child murderer was a lazy and unfortunate one that I think more creative writers would have been wise enough to pass up altogether. But that's, just, my opinion, man.

Correct me if I am wrong, but weren't the Knights of Ren still Dark Side and working for the Emperor at the time Ben killed them?  
Weren't they trying to prevent Ben from getting to the Emperor and Rey?  Can you really call Ben killing them murder?   I know that it is murder any more than Han and Luke shooting Storm Troopers on the Death Star in ANH.   Also how much remorse did Anakin show in ROTJ?

He's talking about the other students, not the ones that joined him and became the KoR.

 

[wilhelm scream]

To me, Legends ends chronologically with Surrivor's Quest (even if I do like the Legacy comics).

Oh, you don't like the NJO? I personally view the EU as a classic era of adventure stories and trilogies leading up to a climactic event via the New Jedi Order series (a la Infinity War and Endgame for the MCU, which I personally quite enjoy). So NJO serves as a perfect cap for the EU, and I ignore anything after.

If it wasn't for the prequels and the amazing EU it inspired (e.g. 2d Clone Wars, Knights of the old republic, etc), the eu might have died again (like it did in the early 80's with the cheesy Marvel comics).

 
Sure, I even stopped reading the books after that. I tried reading some of the new stuff, and it was ok, but the poor authors bear most of the weight of trying to figure out what the heck happened between VI and VIII, and it really shows.

This is just kinda reinforcing my feeling that the EU ruined many people for the ST.

Eh, maybe, but if anything it made me excited to get a clean slate without the ragged remnants of the EU dragging behind. TLJ Luke delivered exactly that.

I just haven't gotten around to reading NJO yet (lack of spare money, I did read a load of wookiepedia articles to tell me what happened).

And the Discanon author's keep making alot of bad decisions (e.g. getting rid of the empire just a year after RTOJ removes so many potential stories that Legends took full advantage of).

 

[TV's Frink]

Ok, move it to another thread please.

 

[TV's Frink]

Interesting article on how the movie ended up getting written the way it was ultimately written.

https://birthmoviesdeath.com/2019/12/31/decoding-the-rise-of-skywalkers-difficult-creative-process