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that's right, I want to keep the viewer's focus on this fight rather than being forced to split their attention between this fight and whatever okoye, riri, m'baku, etc. are doing. They shouldn't matter. even with a highly shortened version of the boat scenes, it still takes us away from Shuri and Namor, and it just feels wrong.
If you're not feeling the boat scene, maybe just cut away to Shuri & Ramonda at the river. Then, when Namor shows up to explain ab out the Vibrnium detector, you briefly cut back to the action beats of the boat scene to explain that he & his people destroyed it. As George Lucas said, "faster, more intense."
That's certainly an option. My current version does feel expedient enough to be honest, and there is one important bit, that is the siren singing. to support that the audio is important and that is generally how wakanda tech works, through vibrations, from the vibranium. The use of the sirens is a part of the later battle in wakanda, and it also reinforces how the sea leopard also uses sound waves to counter the talokan people. without the surrounding scene, the introduction of this element may not be supported well enough. I could be wrong, but I feel this is a core element that supports the movie. It just needed to have better pace.
What do you think?
That's certainly an option. My current version does feel expedient enough to be honest, and there is one important bit, that is the siren singing. to support that the audio is important and that is generally how wakanda tech works, through vibrations, from the vibranium. The use of the sirens is a part of the later battle in wakanda, and it also reinforces how the sea leopard also uses sound waves to counter the talokan people. without the surrounding scene, the introduction of this element may not be supported well enough. I could be wrong, but I feel this is a core element that supports the movie. It just needed to have better pace.
What do you think?
I think you can keep the boat scene up the the point where one of the CIA guys stop one of their own from jumping off the boat. At that point, the siren song is established & you can move on with the story.
I think you can keep the boat scene up the the point where one of the CIA guys stop one of their own from jumping off the boat. At that point, the siren song is established & you can move on with the story.
I did try a version where I cut it earlier. I excised much more of it, but then the transition back to wakanda felt weird. I'll have another look at it and see if I can find a way to make it work and if it feels better.
that's a good point! then again, T'Challa was telling him that they could heal him, but he refused. It is a heck of an issue though, since Killmonger found it nearly impossible to continue while Shuri seemed to shrug it off. We could make excuses for it, like suggesting she was lucky and it missed vital points, but that is down to each one of us to decide whether or not to forgive it.
I think a cut to black as the guy is walking off the bridge as the music ends would work better as a transition (cut to black before the lady says "let's go!"). None of these characters come back, I don't care whether he jumps or not.
I see what you mean, but then why bother showing these two characters coming out of the boat interior? just to carry the music to completion? It feels like trying too hard to me, not you specifically, but in general. This scene is an introduction to the talokan people and I feel it serves that purpose reasonably well.
it introduces two bit characters and then tells a mini story about them, in order to demonstrate the main adversarial group. That much is becoming clear to me now, with your help. don't get me wrong, these discussions really help to figure out what is necessary and what isn't.
One thing came to mind as well... Namor says he want the scientist and I feel it's necessary to see this woman die so that the viewer doesn't mistakenly think that she is the scientist that Namor wants.
I mean there is another option... (feeling mischievous)
I see what you mean, though going with your saying that it's a mini-story with two bit characters, I don't see a reason why it can't end on an ambiguous/downer note, with the implication that the Talokani killed everyone on the boat offscreen. I see it as an appetizer to what they can do, before we see them bust out their tech on the bridge later.
I took another look at this underwater bit today with the US operation thingemy. The jellyfish part, I think I've successfully removed it and reworked the scene in a way that makes sense and feels good.
yes that's true, I was looking at it as a stylistic thing, but fair enough. to be honest, that dialogue is not completely necessary so I'll just cut that shot out.
It does work though, I just don't know the "rules" around that kind of cut...Maybe it needs to be matched to a sound, or maybe it needs to be three shots (two cuts) to make it really deliberate (we'd have to get a little closer to her face each time).
It does work though, I just don't know the "rules" around that kind of cut...Maybe it needs to be matched to a sound, or maybe it needs to be three shots (two cuts) to make it really deliberate (we'd have to get a little closer to her face each time).
I agree, with this kind of cut, it does have to make it clear to the audience that it is deliberate, so a change in zoom level is often a good way to do that. also, consistency is important, so this kind of cut needs to be wlsewhere in the movie. In this case, the original movie does contain this style of cut, in the end battle, which is why I felt comfortable leaning into that. I do need to check throughout the rest of the movie though, to see how the frequency of this type of cut is. I may need to introduce a few more of these in order to keep that level of consistency. audio cues is important too, the cut ideally needs to be accompanied by a similar pace in the audio. The events of the scene are important too. this type of cut wouldn't work in a calm scene. it adds expediency and slight tension.
Full disclosure, I really like the theatrical cut as is, so I'm not going to agree with a lot of the changes, but knowing that I'll keep my mouth shut about that stuff and only talk technical.
Unfortunately in the most recent video, it looks like the file is skipping, so the editing distracts from the scene. Lake Bell is in a different pose from one frame to the next, between speaking lines where nobody is responding to her and no significant event or tone shift happens at the cut to motivate a jump. Zooming at least 30% on the later portion of the shot could help distinguish the later portion visually and fix part of the issue, but would cause the resolution to drop considerably. Even with a zoom that keeps the resolution, the cut remains unmotivated. I understand your "editor's motivation" was to remove something but for a viewer they will wonder what just happened. My recommendation instead, is to show the viewer something else, even if only for a beat then coming back to Lake Bell's character. The water, the diver panicking, shots of the people on deck looking out, hints of the sirens approaching, almost anything, really.
Full disclosure, I really like the theatrical cut as is, so I'm not going to agree with a lot of the changes, but knowing that I'll keep my mouth shut about that stuff and only talk technical.
Unfortunately in the most recent video, it looks like the file is skipping, so the editing distracts from the scene. Lake Bell is in a different pose from one frame to the next, between speaking lines where nobody is responding to her and no significant event or tone shift happens at the cut to motivate a jump. Zooming at least 30% on the later portion of the shot could help distinguish the later portion visually and fix part of the issue, but would cause the resolution to drop considerably. Even with a zoom that keeps the resolution, the cut remains unmotivated. I understand your "editor's motivation" was to remove something but for a viewer they will wonder what just happened. My recommendation instead, is to show the viewer something else, even if only for a beat then coming back to Lake Bell's character. The water, the diver panicking, shots of the people on deck looking out, hints of the sirens approaching, almost anything, really.
Alright, I have rewatched the movie & it actually holds up better after a rewatch (& skipping over the UN scene). Here's some notes I took down (spoiler tagged to avoid wall of text):
Shuri’s prayer to Bast should be entirely off screen/on the black screen (if we want to frontload the prologue with T’Chall clips from BP1)
Cut out Shuri asking for T’Challa’s heart rate when it’s obvious he’s dead
If you think the mourning montage goes a bit too slow, you can cut everyone verbally mourning T’Challa, with the music already playing. I see it as: Shuri crying > Smash cut to Shuri in funeral robes > T’Challa’s coffin > lifting the coffin to dancing in the street. Cut out other people mourning, focus the story on Shuri more. (Note:, not sure how much that would work with my idea of splicing in clips of T’Challa from the first movie, if at all. Maybe splice those clips in after we see the T’Challa billboard)
Wow, didn’t realize the UN scene was 5 and a half minutes long. Yeah, just cut that scene. Movie’s already over 2.5 hours as is (EDIT: One of the Ross scenes has one line about Wakanda “not selling Vibranium,” but that could just be Wakanda rethinking how ot does trade with other countries, not necessarily being isolationist).
The boat scene. I admit, we need the helicopter opening to establish the scene, but I think we can cut lowering the divers into the ocean (they can be in the ocean, already having touched down with Dr. Graham in her chair). In general, just cut as many of Salazar & Jackson’s lines as you can.
We definitely need the lines “they’re not Wakandans, they’re blue” faster. Maybe make it sound like Dr. Graham is on a walkie-talkie to her pilot, & get us to Namor pulling the chopper down sooner. On that note, there needs to be more exciting music to let us know the chase isn’t over yet (EDIT: got to the part where we first see Elaine show up. The CIA clearly still thinks the Wakandans are responsible, so maybe we don’t need Dr. Graham’s line after all).
I do think you can cut the entire scene of Shuri & Ramonda in Shuri’s lab, since all you're really missing is setup for the next action figure/Midnight Angel armor & a tradition vs. modernity theme that goes nowhere. That said, if you’re going straight from the boat attack to Wakanda, you’d have to create new Wakandan style subtitles to help with that transition, which sounds like a hassle.
Now that I can watch Namor’s first scene with Wakanda, he specifically mentions T’Challa letting the vibranium genie out of the bottle. So yeah, doesn’t matter if Wakanda is isolationist or not, further justifies cutting the UN scene
This seems minor, but maybe cut Ramonda entering Shuir’s lab again after meeting with the council. Angela Basset has such presence, command, & grace even when we don’t see her face…& it undermines Shuri as the main protagonist. After M’Baku asks what they should do, cut to V.O. of Okoye asking “is it me or is this [Midnight Angel armor] getting uglier” (which might mean keeping the earlier scene that establishes it)]
Alternatively, you could cut from the council meeting to Ross jogging, but then you remove Romanda being fearful of losing Shuri & Okoye reassuring that Shuri will be safe (EDIT: If you do cut that scene, just remove reference to it when she strips Okoye of her title later on)
When Ross meets up with Shuri & Okoye, cut as much of Ross’ exposition as possible (“Mining ship, lots of casualties…you throw in the fact they were mining vibranium-”). Don’t think you need Okoye’s leading question, can just have Ross cut to the chase
Minor note, but you can cut from Ross saying “this kid is the only one they got” to Shuri saying “a kid?” I’d experiment with that, it might play better
Keep the remark about Riri killing Namor with her heater, because that’s exactly what they do in the finale
Maybe cut Riri crashing the drone on the cops (not that I’m pro-cop or anything, but how is she allowed back in the states & not in jail after that?) (EDIT: Nevermind, there’s a throwaway line of dialogue at the end that Shuri took care of things)
Generally speaking, curious on ways to trim Okoye’s fight with the Talokani, reduce her “potential main character vibes.”
Ross takes the beads, need to see if this comes abc later. Right now, maybe experiment with cutting from Okoye screaming to back at Wakanda
Okay, Romanda thinks to track Shuri’s beads after cooling down, which justifies cutting back to Ross, as well as the earlier Ross scene. If you’re cutting Ross, just have Romanda ask Griot if Shuri had her earrings. If your previewers think you’ve done a good job at selling Shuri as the main character, let that guide how much time you want away from her
You could cut Riri saying “that’s supervillain shit right there,” save on time
Cut Nakia’s scene in the Yucatan after she says “I’ve seen him too” back to Shuri
Cut the first scene of Namor with him saying “you can’t go down in that”
I’d hate to lose the shot of Nakia staring out at the ocean because it’s pretty, but it feels like padding (Griot saying he tracks Shuri’s earrings is the only important dialogue & can be spliced anywhere)
If you’re thinking of cutting Ross, maybe you can repurpose shots of Anderson Cooper & imply that’s how Romanda learns that the CIA wants to blame Wakanda for the beginning.
Generally speaking, the midpoint of the movie (Shuri’s rescue) is around 1:25:00 in the theatrical cut. However long the first half of the movie is, you should try to match it in the second half
Not sure how necessary it is for Namor to actively declare war in his fancy head dress. Namor has already said he will stop Shuri from giving up the existence of Talokan, that should be enough
Not sure how much Aneka adds, but we do ned the Talokani bracelet reminder
Bad greenscreen on M’Baku
SHOOT! The jellyfish DOES come back after all, since Shuri & Riri reason that Namor extracts oxygen from water like a Jellyfish, & that’s how they come up with the heater idea.
Just want to reiterate, love your idea of moving Kilmonger to later. Gets Shrui in the suit faster. Also, not really an editing thing, but I’d say Shuri surviving the Vibranium blade has more to do with than generic “girl power.” Kilmonger knew his choices were either life imprisonment or death, whereas Shuri still has so much to live for.
If the battle between Namor & Shuri is still choppy, you can still cut back between Okoye & the big Talokani, since that rivalry was at least set up previously.
Order of events (Riri off & Shuri having to leave, we think Shuri sent Okoye to rescue Ross, M’Baku challenge for the throne because Shuri’s not there, finally we see Shuri in Haiti)
Namor & Namora should be a post-credit scene
Experiment with splicing T’Challa Jr. into the ending proper
Alright, I have rewatched the movie & it actually holds up better after a rewatch (& skipping over the UN scene). Here's some notes I took down (spoiler tagged to avoid wall of text):
Shuri’s prayer to Bast should be entirely off screen/on the black screen (if we want to frontload the prologue with T’Chall clips from BP1)
Cut out Shuri asking for T’Challa’s heart rate when it’s obvious he’s dead
If you think the mourning montage goes a bit too slow, you can cut everyone verbally mourning T’Challa, with the music already playing. I see it as: Shuri crying > Smash cut to Shuri in funeral robes > T’Challa’s coffin > lifting the coffin to dancing in the street. Cut out other people mourning, focus the story on Shuri more. (Note:, not sure how much that would work with my idea of splicing in clips of T’Challa from the first movie, if at all. Maybe splice those clips in after we see the T’Challa billboard)
Wow, didn’t realize the UN scene was 5 and a half minutes long. Yeah, just cut that scene. Movie’s already over 2.5 hours as is (EDIT: One of the Ross scenes has one line about Wakanda “not selling Vibranium,” but that could just be Wakanda rethinking how ot does trade with other countries, not necessarily being isolationist).
The boat scene. I admit, we need the helicopter opening to establish the scene, but I think we can cut lowering the divers into the ocean (they can be in the ocean, already having touched down with Dr. Graham in her chair). In general, just cut as many of Salazar & Jackson’s lines as you can.
We definitely need the lines “they’re not Wakandans, they’re blue” faster. Maybe make it sound like Dr. Graham is on a walkie-talkie to her pilot, & get us to Namor pulling the chopper down sooner. On that note, there needs to be more exciting music to let us know the chase isn’t over yet (EDIT: got to the part where we first see Elaine show up. The CIA clearly still thinks the Wakandans are responsible, so maybe we don’t need Dr. Graham’s line after all).
I do think you can cut the entire scene of Shuri & Ramonda in Shuri’s lab, since all you're really missing is setup for the next action figure/Midnight Angel armor & a tradition vs. modernity theme that goes nowhere. That said, if you’re going straight from the boat attack to Wakanda, you’d have to create new Wakandan style subtitles to help with that transition, which sounds like a hassle.
Now that I can watch Namor’s first scene with Wakanda, he specifically mentions T’Challa letting the vibranium genie out of the bottle. So yeah, doesn’t matter if Wakanda is isolationist or not, further justifies cutting the UN scene
This seems minor, but maybe cut Ramonda entering Shuir’s lab again after meeting with the council. Angela Basset has such presence, command, & grace even when we don’t see her face…& it undermines Shuri as the main protagonist. After M’Baku asks what they should do, cut to V.O. of Okoye asking “is it me or is this [Midnight Angel armor] getting uglier” (which might mean keeping the earlier scene that establishes it)]
Alternatively, you could cut from the council meeting to Ross jogging, but then you remove Romanda being fearful of losing Shuri & Okoye reassuring that Shuri will be safe (EDIT: If you do cut that scene, just remove reference to it when she strips Okoye of her title later on)
When Ross meets up with Shuri & Okoye, cut as much of Ross’ exposition as possible (“Mining ship, lots of casualties…you throw in the fact they were mining vibranium-”). Don’t think you need Okoye’s leading question, can just have Ross cut to the chase
Minor note, but you can cut from Ross saying “this kid is the only one they got” to Shuri saying “a kid?” I’d experiment with that, it might play better
Keep the remark about Riri killing Namor with her heater, because that’s exactly what they do in the finale
Maybe cut Riri crashing the drone on the cops (not that I’m pro-cop or anything, but how is she allowed back in the states & not in jail after that?) (EDIT: Nevermind, there’s a throwaway line of dialogue at the end that Shuri took care of things)
Generally speaking, curious on ways to trim Okoye’s fight with the Talokani, reduce her “potential main character vibes.”
Ross takes the beads, need to see if this comes abc later. Right now, maybe experiment with cutting from Okoye screaming to back at Wakanda
Okay, Romanda thinks to track Shuri’s beads after cooling down, which justifies cutting back to Ross, as well as the earlier Ross scene. If you’re cutting Ross, just have Romanda ask Griot if Shuri had her earrings. If your previewers think you’ve done a good job at selling Shuri as the main character, let that guide how much time you want away from her
You could cut Riri saying “that’s supervillain shit right there,” save on time
Cut Nakia’s scene in the Yucatan after she says “I’ve seen him too” back to Shuri
Cut the first scene of Namor with him saying “you can’t go down in that”
I’d hate to lose the shot of Nakia staring out at the ocean because it’s pretty, but it feels like padding (Griot saying he tracks Shuri’s earrings is the only important dialogue & can be spliced anywhere)
If you’re thinking of cutting Ross, maybe you can repurpose shots of Anderson Cooper & imply that’s how Romanda learns that the CIA wants to blame Wakanda for the beginning.
Generally speaking, the midpoint of the movie (Shuri’s rescue) is around 1:25:00 in the theatrical cut. However long the first half of the movie is, you should try to match it in the second half
Not sure how necessary it is for Namor to actively declare war in his fancy head dress. Namor has already said he will stop Shuri from giving up the existence of Talokan, that should be enough
Not sure how much Aneka adds, but we do ned the Talokani bracelet reminder
Bad greenscreen on M’Baku
SHOOT! The jellyfish DOES come back after all, since Shuri & Riri reason that Namor extracts oxygen from water like a Jellyfish, & that’s how they come up with the heater idea.
Just want to reiterate, love your idea of moving Kilmonger to later. Gets Shrui in the suit faster. Also, not really an editing thing, but I’d say Shuri surviving the Vibranium blade has more to do with than generic “girl power.” Kilmonger knew his choices were either life imprisonment or death, whereas Shuri still has so much to live for.
If the battle between Namor & Shuri is still choppy, you can still cut back between Okoye & the big Talokani, since that rivalry was at least set up previously.
Order of events (Riri off & Shuri having to leave, we think Shuri sent Okoye to rescue Ross, M’Baku challenge for the throne because Shuri’s not there, finally we see Shuri in Haiti)
Namor & Namora should be a post-credit scene
Experiment with splicing T’Challa Jr. into the ending proper
Thanks for your thoughts. A lot of these, I have already done some variation of and some I'm not completely in agreement with per se.
The funeral, I have cut straight from Shuri learning of his death, to the slow motion distress part of the procession and let it run from there. I find it to be enough.
I found that putting in flashbacks to T'Challa were not really working, it made the pacing really weird, front loading the movie with what feels like a lot of preamble. I did howerver include the audio of T'Challa's UN speech over the Marvel montage and that leads into the wakanda intro scene with Ramonda returning and the newscast about her increasing isolationism. this contrast works really well IMO.
I cut from the lab with Ramonda asking Shuri to come with her, to the mining ship scene and after that scene, I go back to Ramonda and Shuri at their destination. This ties the scenes together much more tightly.
I've obfuscated the drone anyway, the drone is not identified explicitly, the copcars need to be smashed up because there is no transition to the bridge that doesn't show the burning cars. the object hitting the cars is present but it's not specified what it is or where Riri obtained this 'gift'.
I'v cut out all of Nakia's scenes prior to her appearance rescuing Shuri, HOWEVER, I reinserted Ramonda visiting her in Haiti to just after Shuri visits Talokan main city and before her heart to heart with Namor.
I don't think the Jellyfish is necessary in the diving scene, it feels more incidental, it doesn't really feel like some kind of foreshadowing.
a lot of fine points you've made, I haven't thought of or haven't touched those scenes yet, will make good use of those notes, thanks!
Hi all,
had a bit of timeout due to health matters, got back into it today.
Want to focus on Namor's laugh in my flashback scenes. More than one person has said to remove it. I respect that, but I actually like it. It seems to me to be the perfect symbol for how Shuri views Namor at that moment before her other memories of him come to her mind. It's a powerful turning point for me. What is it specifically that doesn't work well for you?
Aside from that, I have my edits done and it's coming in at around 2 hours and 5 minutes in total. I am rendering my first draft Right now.
It's late now so I won't write my full edit list just now. When I do, I'll list as much as I can, but if I miss something that you have suggested, please feel free to question me on it and I'll confirm if I did it or I'll explain why I decided against it
