-
Most new users don't bother reading our rules. Here's the one that is ignored almost immediately upon signup: DO NOT ASK FOR FANEDIT LINKS PUBLICLY. First, read the FAQ. Seriously. What you want is there. You can also send a message to the editor. If that doesn't work THEN post in the Trade & Request forum. Anywhere else and it will be deleted and an infraction will be issued.
-
Please read our Rules & Guidelines
Read BEFORE posting Trades & Request
Matrix Reimagined version 1.5 is now released...
- Thread starter NewSpock
- Start date
Thanks nicklan duracell for watching and reviewing my edit.
The narrative didn't work for you, that's ok, narration and its reception is always subjective.
But I can't understand why you downgraded my edit in the visual editing- and audio-editing-department. Imho that's pretty unjust.
The narrative didn't work for you, that's ok, narration and its reception is always subjective.
But I can't understand why you downgraded my edit in the visual editing- and audio-editing-department. Imho that's pretty unjust.
- Messages
- 1,100
- Reaction score
- 2
- Trophy Points
- 48
Review posted, and you're *really* not going to like it. Sorry :-( I wrote a fairly exhuastive review so you can understand why I felt as I did, and then decide for yourself whether my points are valid or not!
However, your technical skills are good, particularly your sound work - just do it in 5.1. (I downgraded the AV because of the stereo mix on the mkv). "I will be watching your career with great interest" (particularly your ITW).
However, your technical skills are good, particularly your sound work - just do it in 5.1. (I downgraded the AV because of the stereo mix on the mkv). "I will be watching your career with great interest" (particularly your ITW).
dangermouse said:
Thanks for watching and reviewing my edit, dangermouse.
It's ok, you don't like it, no problem.
But allow me to respond to some of the points raised. I'll put my response in spoilers as I delve into the details of the story, and can you please also put a spoiler-warning in your review for those who haven't seen the edit yet?
Regarding the point that "Matrix 1" is perfect pacing-wise... and therefore any tampering with it would bring it out of balance...:
I also think it is perfect pacing-wise, that's why I took great care not to bring it out of balance. That's part of the reason I merely used 15 minutes from the sequels and really thought long and hard about how to integrate them into a near master-piece of a movie like "Matrix 1" is.
For example the first scene of the edit, the talk between Locke and Morpheus resets the focus of the story as an ideological battle between them without tampering with the story's original pacing. In fact it adds texture and depth to the following scenes.
Then the next insertion is to allow for Morpheus and his ship to actually visit Zion. I put it into the right moment when the story and its pacing actually called and allowed for a breathing-space.
Sure you don't like Zion and its portrayal, I don't like it either (I would have filmed them differently, but I can't reshoot), but Zion is essential for the story to complete it. The scene then in the middle of the movie with the second talk between Locke and Morpheus and the following speech to the masses by Morpheus is essential to my version of the story.
It gives Morpheus depth and establishes his connection with Zion's people as a leader with a vision, a different one from Locke, the logical vs the prophecy-believer.
And it gives the Zion-people much needed hope in the face of the known impending attack of the machines. That's why the following scene with the digging of the machines is not reducing the meaning of Morpheus' speech. Quite to the contrary, it only underlines it, that's why I put it in there, to show what Morpheus was talking about, when he said "The machines are gathering an army and they are drawing near our home as I speak"...
Imho it enriches the movies' story without disturbing its pacing because the movie profits from that breathing space at that point and gives time for some reflection as well as to heighten the stakes of the whole battle.
"Why do we not see Locke again", we do, the whole movie-edit's story is set up as a competition of two strategies: Morpheus' within the Matrix-strategy and Locke's outside the matrix logical battle with ships and soldiers. Locke is shown again and again at the appropriate times and with the right scenes.
The only thing I robbed him from is the backstory of his girlfriend Niobe, and an ex-girlfriend of Morpheus. I didn't find it convincing or needed in the original, so it's gone.
"The kid is overacting with the end of the war". The war that is a 100 years ongoing and that came to the point of nearly completely destroying Zion came to an end, it's the first time ever the machines withdrew and his faith in Neo to fulfill the prophecy just got confirmed in the best way and at the last moment. There is imho no overacting there, imho it's just the appropriate reaction.
"The characters were made weaker, the pacing was off, Zion was reduced to a boring mosh pit of faceless made-for-TV characters... in short, a lot of the problems of the sequels were brought in to the Matrix!"
Zion and its characters are already dull in the original, that is in the sequels where they appear, by choosing to cut down all of that dullness I show Zion merely as a symbol for humanity, as the prize of the war. The characters I and many others care for are Neo, Morpheus and Trinity, so I focused on them for the character and only included what I needed, especially for Locke's character to complete the story.
The last scene in my edit, Neo talking by phone to the machines, is essential in my edit. It's not just circumstantial or tacked on or anything. In my edit and with the new version of the story developed for it, the last scene gains a new meaning:
Sure, the machines are defeated but the last telephone-call further underlines that to the watcher: Neo can freely walk within the Matrix without fear of the machines anymore, he has evolved into something they can't control anymore and in fact something that could control or destroy them. That's why the picture with the screen "System freeze" is so telling in this new light. Him giving the machines a choice is showing them that he is different from them, that he doesn't seek complete control or destruction like the machines do but offers them the opportunity to be part of a new cooperative future.
They can choose, but no matter what they decide, Neo will free the humans caught in the matrix as soon he hangs up the phone.
I also think it is perfect pacing-wise, that's why I took great care not to bring it out of balance. That's part of the reason I merely used 15 minutes from the sequels and really thought long and hard about how to integrate them into a near master-piece of a movie like "Matrix 1" is.
For example the first scene of the edit, the talk between Locke and Morpheus resets the focus of the story as an ideological battle between them without tampering with the story's original pacing. In fact it adds texture and depth to the following scenes.
Then the next insertion is to allow for Morpheus and his ship to actually visit Zion. I put it into the right moment when the story and its pacing actually called and allowed for a breathing-space.
Sure you don't like Zion and its portrayal, I don't like it either (I would have filmed them differently, but I can't reshoot), but Zion is essential for the story to complete it. The scene then in the middle of the movie with the second talk between Locke and Morpheus and the following speech to the masses by Morpheus is essential to my version of the story.
It gives Morpheus depth and establishes his connection with Zion's people as a leader with a vision, a different one from Locke, the logical vs the prophecy-believer.
And it gives the Zion-people much needed hope in the face of the known impending attack of the machines. That's why the following scene with the digging of the machines is not reducing the meaning of Morpheus' speech. Quite to the contrary, it only underlines it, that's why I put it in there, to show what Morpheus was talking about, when he said "The machines are gathering an army and they are drawing near our home as I speak"...
Imho it enriches the movies' story without disturbing its pacing because the movie profits from that breathing space at that point and gives time for some reflection as well as to heighten the stakes of the whole battle.
"Why do we not see Locke again", we do, the whole movie-edit's story is set up as a competition of two strategies: Morpheus' within the Matrix-strategy and Locke's outside the matrix logical battle with ships and soldiers. Locke is shown again and again at the appropriate times and with the right scenes.
The only thing I robbed him from is the backstory of his girlfriend Niobe, and an ex-girlfriend of Morpheus. I didn't find it convincing or needed in the original, so it's gone.
"The kid is overacting with the end of the war". The war that is a 100 years ongoing and that came to the point of nearly completely destroying Zion came to an end, it's the first time ever the machines withdrew and his faith in Neo to fulfill the prophecy just got confirmed in the best way and at the last moment. There is imho no overacting there, imho it's just the appropriate reaction.
"The characters were made weaker, the pacing was off, Zion was reduced to a boring mosh pit of faceless made-for-TV characters... in short, a lot of the problems of the sequels were brought in to the Matrix!"
Zion and its characters are already dull in the original, that is in the sequels where they appear, by choosing to cut down all of that dullness I show Zion merely as a symbol for humanity, as the prize of the war. The characters I and many others care for are Neo, Morpheus and Trinity, so I focused on them for the character and only included what I needed, especially for Locke's character to complete the story.
The last scene in my edit, Neo talking by phone to the machines, is essential in my edit. It's not just circumstantial or tacked on or anything. In my edit and with the new version of the story developed for it, the last scene gains a new meaning:
Sure, the machines are defeated but the last telephone-call further underlines that to the watcher: Neo can freely walk within the Matrix without fear of the machines anymore, he has evolved into something they can't control anymore and in fact something that could control or destroy them. That's why the picture with the screen "System freeze" is so telling in this new light. Him giving the machines a choice is showing them that he is different from them, that he doesn't seek complete control or destruction like the machines do but offers them the opportunity to be part of a new cooperative future.
They can choose, but no matter what they decide, Neo will free the humans caught in the matrix as soon he hangs up the phone.
(Can you tell me, why it's only 6/10 for audio/video-quality?)
Still, I think if you watched my edit again some time again in the future, maybe it will grow on you.
P.S.: @all: Don't miss out on my "Buffy Reimagined"-movie-saga. If I may say so myself: I've weaved a hell of a five-movie-spanning-story-arc! :juggle:
Edit-reason: I was made aware that two sentences I used were offending, so they are gone.
What's up with these 3 dislikes for my last posting? There is nothing rude in it, just what I honestly thought while reading the review of dangermouse and the points he raised.
Dangermouse was so honest to write this review and I responded just as honest to it with my view and reasoning for the story.
See, with my edits for which I work for months, it's like they are children born to me when I'm finished and release them. A lot of passion, care and thoughts go into them and I love them like a father loves his children.
So maybe I'm not the most objective regarding them but I will nonetheless argue for my version of the stories.
I think it's the right of a faneditor to defend his work. Here, different from the normal filmmaking world, creators and watchers can directly talk with each other, discuss, agree or disagree... that's imho a major bonus.
But for this to work both sides need to be free to express their feelings. The watcher/reviewer and the faneditor, if he feels strongly about something.
Everyone when having watched the edit can of course freely decide who is more in the right and agree or disagree with my story or my arguments, but that is no reason to dislike my postings when I try to defend my edit with arguments.
Using the dislike-tool in such a way would imho otherwise have censoring effects.
Dangermouse was so honest to write this review and I responded just as honest to it with my view and reasoning for the story.
See, with my edits for which I work for months, it's like they are children born to me when I'm finished and release them. A lot of passion, care and thoughts go into them and I love them like a father loves his children.
So maybe I'm not the most objective regarding them but I will nonetheless argue for my version of the stories.
I think it's the right of a faneditor to defend his work. Here, different from the normal filmmaking world, creators and watchers can directly talk with each other, discuss, agree or disagree... that's imho a major bonus.
But for this to work both sides need to be free to express their feelings. The watcher/reviewer and the faneditor, if he feels strongly about something.
Everyone when having watched the edit can of course freely decide who is more in the right and agree or disagree with my story or my arguments, but that is no reason to dislike my postings when I try to defend my edit with arguments.
Using the dislike-tool in such a way would imho otherwise have censoring effects.
- Messages
- 23,686
- Reaction score
- 419
- Trophy Points
- 193
Dude, check out DM's review of my first edit (FEOTM winner, by the way).
http://www.fanedit.org/ifdb/2012-08...e-i-the-ridiculous-menace_l434/?order=rrating
Consider yourself lucky!
http://www.fanedit.org/ifdb/2012-08...e-i-the-ridiculous-menace_l434/?order=rrating
Consider yourself lucky!
Love you DM
- Messages
- 23,686
- Reaction score
- 419
- Trophy Points
- 193
Also...
http://www.fanedit.org/forums/showt...d-20-seconds-clip-inside)&p=211665#post211665
Just saying...
http://www.fanedit.org/forums/showt...d-20-seconds-clip-inside)&p=211665#post211665
Just saying...
- Messages
- 15,090
- Reaction score
- 36
- Trophy Points
- 133
Trust me, an honest (yet polite) review is far better than continual ego stroking. I wish someone would have told George Lucas that his decisions sucked...
At any rate, discussion on both sides of an opinion should be encouraged, but when you pull out stuff like this:
...expect fewer people to take the time to watch and review your edits...
now let me sum this up the way teh internet tells me to:
At any rate, discussion on both sides of an opinion should be encouraged, but when you pull out stuff like this:
...expect fewer people to take the time to watch and review your edits...
now let me sum this up the way teh internet tells me to:
Neglify said:
Why shouldn't I say something when it's unjustified?
6/10 for audio/video-quality?! The other reviewer I referred to also downgraded the visual editing-aspect, but why?
There is no reason for these low grades, audio/video-quality is in bluray-quality and the editing pretty much seamless.
I can understand that someone is disapointed that there is no 5.1-sound and I can understand if it reduces enjoyment, and therefore a down-notch in the enjoyment-aspect, but the visual/audio-quality (it's a very good 2.0-stereo-audio) delivered has imho nothing to do with it.
As to my other comment, that isn't meant to prevent people from downgrading in the enjoyment-department. I respect that dangermouse didn't enjoy my edit, but because of the arguments in his review I felt that he weren't watching it free of prejudices and I stated my thought, reasoned with arguments.
Don't feel disturbed by my responding, feel free to watch and review my edits any way you like and grade it any way you like.
But I will offer counterarguments if I feel it's justified.
TV's Frink said:Dude, check out DM's review of my first edit (FEOTM winner, by the way).
http://www.fanedit.org/ifdb/2012-08...e-i-the-ridiculous-menace_l434/?order=rrating
Consider yourself lucky!
Love you DM
Haha, some harsh reviews!
Alright, I edited out the two sentences that could be read as offending.
- Messages
- 15,090
- Reaction score
- 36
- Trophy Points
- 133
Here's the deal: there is no such thing as an unbiased review. Whether someone has seen the source material or not, prefers a certain genre or not, or whatever other countless reasons, the viewer is going to bring their own set of perspectives to a viewing experience. Because they didn't enjoy the film/edit, or experienced it differently than you does not mean they watched it wrong.
Retorting with "you didn't watch it correctly" or "that wasn't my intention" or "you didn't understand my art" is a real turn off,and at the end of the day it doesn't change the experience for the viewer.
A great film (or edit) doesn't need a ruleset to guide the viewer through how they should feel. It either works or it doesn't. In this case, it didn't - for that viewer. Telling him he watched it incorrectly is the wrong move.
Retorting with "you didn't watch it correctly" or "that wasn't my intention" or "you didn't understand my art" is a real turn off,and at the end of the day it doesn't change the experience for the viewer.
A great film (or edit) doesn't need a ruleset to guide the viewer through how they should feel. It either works or it doesn't. In this case, it didn't - for that viewer. Telling him he watched it incorrectly is the wrong move.
- Messages
- 14,912
- Reaction score
- 2,437
- Trophy Points
- 228
I was unsure whether to write this but as others seem to feel the same way and you were wondering why people have down voted your response, I know it won't just be me griping...
When I read dangermouse's review the other day, I could see this coming like "The sound of inevitability". You seem to have a very defensive attitude towards even mildly critical reviews of your edit. Which is why I suspect dangermouse introduced his review with words like...
"You’re really not going to like it. Sorry"
If a reviewer is being defensive about their review because they think you are gonna get defensive, something is wrong. So you can see that this isn't just me mouthing off without giving it some thought, I've taken the time to scroll back through this thread, to review some of your past comments.
You responded to my review with comments like...
"I have to say it's a very unfair review and scoring"
"I think you didn't understand the story-arc"
"The problem is that you still have the sequels in mind"
"I don't mind a low score, if it's justified."
"It's ok, unfair reviews... belong to editing just like it belongs to filmmaking"
It all has the tone of somebody who considers their work perfect, so the fault must be with the reviewer and their ill-considered views.
You responded to nickian duracell's review with comments like...
"I can't understand why you downgraded my edit"
"That's pretty unjust"
"A huge injustice"
Just because he didn't think your visual and audio editing was perfect, it doesn't mean he thought there was anything wrong with the "technical aspects" (Which is what you think he means). He could be referring to your visual and audio editing choices (By the way, he gave you an 8 out of 10 for audio... hardly a damning score!).
Right now, I could go edit a scene from 'Texas Chainsaw Massacre' into a scene from 'The Wizard of Oz' with audio and visual editing that was technically (As you say) "pretty much seamless" but it would still be wildly distracting, abrupt and tonally/narratively misjudged.
You responded to dangermouse's review with comments like...
"At least you didn't downgrade me for the technical aspects (hmm, for one you actually did) for no reason like someone else did"
"I also don't understand why you say..."
"I can't understand why you think..."
"I honestly don't think you watched my edit with an open mind"
Who are you to say that dangermouse scored your edit the way he did "for no reason". He kindly took what looked like a great deal of time to write a whole page, giving his detailed opinions. If you didn't want to hear them, then either don't read them or don't submit your edits to this site for review. Suggesting people didn't watch your edit properly or didn't think hard enough before reviewing, seems quite insulting to these ears/eyes.
It irks me when members give straight '10 out of 10s' for everything because it defeats the point of doing a review and tells me nothing about how good or bad a job I did. I understand why people do it... because they think the editors are gonna get upset. But for the most part editors are actually glad of criticism but your responses give the exact opposite impression. It doesn't just put people off reviewing (Or even viewing) your own edits, it could put people off reviewing all together which would make me sad (And a little cross).
When I read dangermouse's review the other day, I could see this coming like "The sound of inevitability". You seem to have a very defensive attitude towards even mildly critical reviews of your edit. Which is why I suspect dangermouse introduced his review with words like...
"You’re really not going to like it. Sorry"
If a reviewer is being defensive about their review because they think you are gonna get defensive, something is wrong. So you can see that this isn't just me mouthing off without giving it some thought, I've taken the time to scroll back through this thread, to review some of your past comments.
You responded to my review with comments like...
"I have to say it's a very unfair review and scoring"
"I think you didn't understand the story-arc"
"The problem is that you still have the sequels in mind"
"I don't mind a low score, if it's justified."
"It's ok, unfair reviews... belong to editing just like it belongs to filmmaking"
It all has the tone of somebody who considers their work perfect, so the fault must be with the reviewer and their ill-considered views.
You responded to nickian duracell's review with comments like...
"I can't understand why you downgraded my edit"
"That's pretty unjust"
"A huge injustice"
Just because he didn't think your visual and audio editing was perfect, it doesn't mean he thought there was anything wrong with the "technical aspects" (Which is what you think he means). He could be referring to your visual and audio editing choices (By the way, he gave you an 8 out of 10 for audio... hardly a damning score!).
Right now, I could go edit a scene from 'Texas Chainsaw Massacre' into a scene from 'The Wizard of Oz' with audio and visual editing that was technically (As you say) "pretty much seamless" but it would still be wildly distracting, abrupt and tonally/narratively misjudged.
You responded to dangermouse's review with comments like...
"At least you didn't downgrade me for the technical aspects (hmm, for one you actually did) for no reason like someone else did"
"I also don't understand why you say..."
"I can't understand why you think..."
"I honestly don't think you watched my edit with an open mind"
Who are you to say that dangermouse scored your edit the way he did "for no reason". He kindly took what looked like a great deal of time to write a whole page, giving his detailed opinions. If you didn't want to hear them, then either don't read them or don't submit your edits to this site for review. Suggesting people didn't watch your edit properly or didn't think hard enough before reviewing, seems quite insulting to these ears/eyes.
It irks me when members give straight '10 out of 10s' for everything because it defeats the point of doing a review and tells me nothing about how good or bad a job I did. I understand why people do it... because they think the editors are gonna get upset. But for the most part editors are actually glad of criticism but your responses give the exact opposite impression. It doesn't just put people off reviewing (Or even viewing) your own edits, it could put people off reviewing all together which would make me sad (And a little cross).
I already got it, TM2YC.
I'll just leave any judgemental comments out of it and deliver arguments in a spoiler and in a mild manner, but I will call out objectively wrong gradings.
In the case of nickian duracell's review I didn't call him out because of the general review or his enjoyment-level, but because of the more objective rating for visual/audio-editing, I wrote:
"But what I can't understand: What caused you to downgrade my edit in the visual editing- and audio editing-departments? A huge injustice, if you ask me."
And he answered:
"So, just took the time to redownload you're movie to give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm going to stick to my guns with the visually in the title itself (not having Reimagined inserted with The Matrix, and I'm aware how hard that would be to make convingly ugh) and when the cuts to the Matrix sequels occured, to me they felt out of place in that Morpheus was always wearing a different outfit, I get that it's like he was stepping away to discuss with the higher ups about Neo and his progress so far, it's just his appearance and mannerisms felt out of place to me. Audiowise, you got me there, I could probably give it a 9 or 10 because with my memory or skimming over it I can't really hear anything wrong at all, and I'm very picky with good audio as well so I'm sorry I rated that lower and affected your score."
So he downgraded the edit in the visual editing to 6/10 because a) I didn't change the in the movie-title "The matrix" to "Matrix Reimagined" and b) because in one scene Morpheus in the middle when talking with Locke was wearing something different. Mind you, there was nothing wrong with Morpheus wearing something different, why shouldn't he?
I think that's objectively unjust.
I think people need to put some effort into their reviews and be a bit more accurate when grading, espescially in the objective aspects.
Sometimes, when I feel it's completely out of the whack, I will call it out.
Regarding grades for subjective aspects like "narrative" and "enjoyment" I won't ever complain again, but I will sometimes comment in spoilers as I like to discuss story-development.
Dealing with reviews is a learning-process as well as editing itself is. I could just not comment at all, but that would be lifeless. I believe in interaction between watcher and editor, but I'll considerably moderate my tone.
I'll just leave any judgemental comments out of it and deliver arguments in a spoiler and in a mild manner, but I will call out objectively wrong gradings.
In the case of nickian duracell's review I didn't call him out because of the general review or his enjoyment-level, but because of the more objective rating for visual/audio-editing, I wrote:
"But what I can't understand: What caused you to downgrade my edit in the visual editing- and audio editing-departments? A huge injustice, if you ask me."
And he answered:
"So, just took the time to redownload you're movie to give you the benefit of the doubt. I'm going to stick to my guns with the visually in the title itself (not having Reimagined inserted with The Matrix, and I'm aware how hard that would be to make convingly ugh) and when the cuts to the Matrix sequels occured, to me they felt out of place in that Morpheus was always wearing a different outfit, I get that it's like he was stepping away to discuss with the higher ups about Neo and his progress so far, it's just his appearance and mannerisms felt out of place to me. Audiowise, you got me there, I could probably give it a 9 or 10 because with my memory or skimming over it I can't really hear anything wrong at all, and I'm very picky with good audio as well so I'm sorry I rated that lower and affected your score."
So he downgraded the edit in the visual editing to 6/10 because a) I didn't change the in the movie-title "The matrix" to "Matrix Reimagined" and b) because in one scene Morpheus in the middle when talking with Locke was wearing something different. Mind you, there was nothing wrong with Morpheus wearing something different, why shouldn't he?
I think that's objectively unjust.
I think people need to put some effort into their reviews and be a bit more accurate when grading, espescially in the objective aspects.
Sometimes, when I feel it's completely out of the whack, I will call it out.
Regarding grades for subjective aspects like "narrative" and "enjoyment" I won't ever complain again, but I will sometimes comment in spoilers as I like to discuss story-development.
Dealing with reviews is a learning-process as well as editing itself is. I could just not comment at all, but that would be lifeless. I believe in interaction between watcher and editor, but I'll considerably moderate my tone.
- Messages
- 23,686
- Reaction score
- 419
- Trophy Points
- 193
He's trying to help, even if it doesn't feel that way to you.
TV's Frink said:
I know, but I already got it. I'll just have to find a middleway in responding to reviews I think to be unjust.
I think the right way is to respond to reviews that are completely out of whack in the objective departments and not judge narrative and enjoyment-scores.
But commenting in spoilers arguments regarding story in a mild manner can be fruitful.
Moe_Syzlak
Well-known member
- Messages
- 3,498
- Reaction score
- 1,215
- Trophy Points
- 118
You can do what you want. You obviously put a lot of effort int9 your edits and I have no film editing skills. But if I may offer some unsolicited advice, I think holding your rebuttals for only the reviews you find overtly egregious might be the best course of action. Even if your points are valid it rarely is advantageous to refute criticism. Take the recent comments from filmmakers on the first Wolverine movie or, more recently, the Lone Ranger movie. In those cases, as in most cases, the filmmakers would've been better served keeping their criticism of the criticism to themselves. Again that's just my unsolicited $0.02.