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Terminator 2 - Hands of Fate

ThrowgnCpr said:
I am glad someone likes it.

I thought it was great. I'm amazed you haven't had further positive comments on fanedit.org. I always try to see the good in an edit and see it as a different experience of the film. We can't expect faneditors to produce exactly the edits we would wish, as every time they are faced with a choice we can't expect them to choose what we would want.

This is how I try to approach the Star Wars prequel edits. Sith Lord's are the best for me so far, but the only way I'll ever get to see exactly what I want is to do it myself one day.

ThrowgnCpr said:
As for T3, I really think that T-HOPE and Uncanny Antman did fantastic jobs with it. It totally saves the film for me. While its still not as good as 1 or 2, they are at least versions of the film I can enjoy a lot, and fit in OK with the series.

I did watch UA's edit, as from the descriptions it seemed the more severe of the two, and I thought the film needed it. It was an amazing job, but I still don't like the whole idea of the film.

From what Elbarto said it looks like I'm going to be disappointed with Salvation too. :-(
 
Ok, here is my review of T2 HANDS OF FATE.
Now as a way of setting this up I must mention that I know of ThrowgnCpr, he's a talented graphic artist, a sort of visual effects guru and very good with the birds.
You should also know that I don't hold any hatred or animosity towards him.
Sometimes I have been accused of being unduly harsh and insensitive.
But that is not my intention, I just call it like I see it.
And in this medium, its pretty hard to hide, a bad edit is a bad edit and a good edit is a good edit.
it's there, you can see it.
So ThrowgnCpr, if you are ready for this read on...

Terminator 2: Hands of Fate

This one came out of nowhere for me. ThrowgnCpr reminded me of posting about it but I plum forgot.
But it was instantly exciting. Although I haven't seen it, ThrowgnCpr's work on BATMAN CONSECUTION is highly talked about and he's the go-to guy when it comes to visual effects questions.
It had been a while since I last checked out one of ThrowgnCpr's efforts. X-Files - Exordium being the last one.
I skipped BECAUSE YOU WERE HOME because i don't watch horror films.
So I wondered to myself, has ThrowgnCpr seasoned as a faneditor and has he brought his keen eye and artistic aesthetics to make T2: HANDS OF FATE a truly superb alternate T2 experience?
The answer is no. A resounding no.

LOVE CONQUERS ALL
Watching this fanedit was not unlike watching one the earliest fanedits ever.
It was made in 1985 and it's called LOVE CONQUERS ALL: THE SHEINBERG VERSION of what we know as Terry Gilliam's BRAZIL.
Don't know of the battle or heard of the cut? here are the stats:
In the red corner we had Terry Gilliam, a relatively inexperienced filmmaker fresh off the success of TIME BANDITS.
In the blue corner there was Sid Sheinberg, president of MCA-Universal and a man who had dealings with some of the most influential and powerful people in Hollywood.
And at the centre of it all was the film BRAZIL. A bleak story about the future in which a man can only escape the inhumanity around him by escaping into a fantasy world, the film came complete with an 'unhappy' ending. Well, if Gilliam had his way at least.
But Sheinberg had other ideas. He wanted to shorten the film, get rid of the bummer ending and emphasize the love story.
Gilliam wouldn't re-cut.
Sheinberg wouldn't release Gilliam's version.
So as head of the studio, Sheinberg got an editor and made his version of BRAZIL: LOVE CONQUERS ALL.

Much as how you can't help staring at a car wreck, there's a sick fascination with how Sheinberg was able to change BRAZIL from one of the greatest films of all time to a bland, unmemorable love story without any apparent sense of humor.
Which brings us back to T2 HANDS OF FATE.
Now I'm sure ThrowgnCpr had the best of intentions as I'm sure Sid Sheinberg thought he was doing good.
But ultimately, it's what's on the TV that counts.
And what I saw in this fanedit is that ThrowgnCpr had forgotten someone very important: the Audience.

THE CONS
The world of fanediting is vast. In it you are encouraged to do versions of films as you see fit.
You are in control, cut it like you want, bro!.
The complications arise when you want to share this with the world.
Because pleasing yourself and pleasing an audience requires 2 different mindsets.
James Cameron, Gale Anne Hurd, William Wisher are no dummies.
They didn't accidentally let comedy slip into their film.
They know the comedy is there for a reason.
For a true roller-coaster ride audiences need variety.
Pull and push, up and down, laugh and cry, rise and fall and yes, in and out.

Nothing illustrates this better than:
The "Bad to the Bone" scene.
ThrowgnCpr's main reason for this fanedit. He writes "We are supposed to fear the Terminator because of our previous experience with him. Though with this scene, suddenly he is cool!! and this totally spoils the surprise and shock of his new role."
Unfortunately that is the point of the scene. Changing the tone of the scene by expertly removing the rock track and even hiring an actor to ADR the scene does not change the fact that it is meant to be funny.
It adds nothing new to the T-800 as a bad-ass since he's just wiped out a club full of bikers.
Grabbing the shades from the bartender adds nothing in comparison and in ThrowgnCpr's version, brings the film to a grinding halt.

Much better would have been to cut from
- Biker on the ground tossing the keys "Take it!"
- Terminator snatches the keys off the air.
- The cop car in another part of town as the T1000 arrives.


THE TECH
There are other editing choices that I disagree with but that have already been covered in other posts.
But it is mainly technically were this fanedit suffers the most.
The DVD-9 video I downloaded was pretty much un-watchable.
This takes me back to the days of vhs copies of vhs copies.

As an experiment go to any portion of this fanedit. Say like the truck chase. Now step through it frame by frame.
Every frame should be crisp and clear. Like a photo.
Instead what I see is stuff like this from the Bar fight.

trouble.jpg


I have my suspicions as to what went wrong but these technical explanations are beyond the scope of this review.

Also not helping is the dvd source for this fanedit.
Check out the black edges on the right of the frame. Also you can see the ghosting on the left and right created by EE.

98853534.jpg


Much better source would have been using the EXTREME DVD were the image goes right to end of the frame and there is no EE.

74902022.jpg



THE PROS
Is there any good in this fanedit? Yes. ThrowgnCpr has a real passion for the subject and a flair for entertainment.
These are evident on the DVD design and the supplements.
I imagine many late nights putting this show together.
I find that kind of dedication admirable. I always want people like this to succeed with their projects,
for the results of their up-late-at-night-after-work machinations to become interesting, wonderful fanedits.
It's too bad this one falls way short of the mark.

On my Street-wise rating system I give this fanedit
A RED LIGHT:

trafficlightsstop104037af3.jpg

DON'T CROSS.


Just to be clear, this review is of the DVD-9. Of which the main issues were technical.
If these were fixed were it became a non-issue, the fanedit itself would rate:
AN AMBER LIGHT: PROCEED WITH CAUTION.

If you're interested in BRAZIL: LOVE CONQUERS ALL. THE SHEINBERG VERSION check out this link.
 
you know what KBM, that is some review. what were you expecting from the edit? do you like the original T2? did you read my intent? I think a red light is pretty harsh. Did you want a complete new vision on T2?

I understand your issues with the video. When I was done I found out I probably used the worst transfer of T2, and I worked with some deinterlacing issues. But I dont think we need to get too detailed about it here.

you are a really funny guy, and never cease to amaze me.
 
It seems ridiculous for me to react to a review of an edit I haven't watched yet, but since I'm a ridiculous person, I'm going to do it anyway.
killbillme said:
Ok, here is my review of T2 HANDS OF FATE.
I have to say that Jorge's reviews are always a lot of fun to read, even if I don't agree with anything in the review. His style cannot be denied :)
killbillme said:
Now I'm sure ThrowgnCpr had the best of intentions as I'm sure Sid Sheinberg thought he was doing good.
But ultimately, it's what's on the TV that counts.
And what I saw in this fanedit is that ThrowgnCpr had forgotten someone very important: the Audience.
If I have understood Throw's intentions, then this edit was in part made for a specific audience - those who wish there wasn't so much "humor" in the movie (and those who don't see this movie as untouchable). And if that's the case, then this edit was made for me. That's not a case of forgetting the audience, but rather, targeting a specific (and probably very small) audience. Nothing wrong with that when box recepits aren't on the line :wink:
killbillme said:
Because pleasing yourself and pleasing an audience requires 2 different mindsets.
James Cameron, Gale Anne Hurd, William Wisher are no dummies.
They didn't accidentally let comedy slip into their film.
They know the comedy is there for a reason.
For a true roller-coaster ride audiences need variety.
Pull and push, up and down, laugh and cry, rise and fall and yes, in and out.
I need to actually see how this plays out, but I can't imagine that removing silly Arnold one-liners like "I need a vacation" will take away from the roller coaster experience.
killbillme said:
Nothing illustrates this better than:
The "Bad to the Bone" scene.
ThrowgnCpr's main reason for this fanedit. He writes "We are supposed to fear the Terminator because of our previous experience with him. Though with this scene, suddenly he is cool!! and this totally spoils the surprise and shock of his new role."
Unfortunately that is the point of the scene. Changing the tone of the scene by expertly removing the rock track and even hiring an actor to ADR the scene does not change the fact that it is meant to be funny.
But something that is meant to be funny is not the same thing as something that is funny. And we all have our opinions on what is funny, but I never found this scene funny, ever. And I like the idea of trying to preserve a little of Arnold's mystery, even though I know how it turns out.
killbillme said:
But it is mainly technically were this fanedit suffers the most.
The DVD-9 video I downloaded was pretty much un-watchable.
This takes me back to the days of vhs copies of vhs copies.
I am no videophile. If something looks good on my 30" HD set, I'm happy. And no, I haven't seen this edit yet. But comparing it to a copy of a vhs copy and calling it unwatchable? Could it possibly be that bad? Wouldn't someone else have mentioned this? I'm not saying there can't be problems with the video (as Throw alluded to himself), but if it is truly unwatchable, I think someone else would have brought it up. EDIT: I suppose it's possible that others who have watched this so far were only watching the AVI. I'm curious to hear what others think about the DVD9 quality. And yes, I will be looking at it myself, as soon as my blank DVD9s arrive...

I'll end this post on a lighter note. I actually like the smiling scene, so I'm glad it's still in this edit. But I sure wish Arnold was available that day and they didn't have to call in Huey Lewis at the last moment:

74902022.jpg
 
TV's Frink said:
I'll end this post on a lighter note. I actually like the smiling scene, so I'm glad it's still in this edit. But I sure wish Arnold was available that day and they didn't have to call in Huey Lewis at the last moment:

:lol: :lol: You certainly know how to do that!

You mean killbillme though, not Jorge! Never again do I wish to see so uncharacteristic a slip from you, my friend. :)
 
Captain Khajiit said:
You mean killbillme though, not Jorge! Never again do I wish to see so uncharacteristic a slip from you, my friend. :)
You've got to get up pretty early in the morning to catch me in that kind of slip :)

killbillme = Jorge
 
Well I never knew! I'm still confused by the different names for individuals and production companies or whatever. I thought it didn't seem like a TVF mistake. Thanks for pointing it out.

Your reputation for precision and eloquence remains intact, TVF. :grin:
 
ThrowgnCpr said:
you know what KBM, that is some review. what were you expecting from the edit? do you like the original T2? did you read my intent? I think a red light is pretty harsh. Did you want a complete new vision on T2?

I understand your issues with the video. When I was done I found out I probably used the worst transfer of T2, and I worked with some deinterlacing issues. But I dont think we need to get too detailed about it here.

you are a really funny guy, and never cease to amaze me.
Hey T.
I just amended my review. I realize the red light could be confusing. Is it clearer now?
Also if you need any help dealing with the tech just let me know.
Jorge
 
Jorge, you made it pretty clear in your initial post how you feel about this edit and the fanedit community in general. no amending needed, you came through loud and clear.
 
Ok, so I've been waiting patiently for new DL discs for a while now (stupid free shipping :) ), but tonight they finally arrived. I immediately burned Hands of Fate and took it for an extremely fast test drive. I only had about 15 minutes to play around with it, so at this point I can't speak to the quality of the editing. I certainly will watch the movie from beginning to end at some point and share my thoughts. But I wanted to get a feel for the audio/visual quality, in light of Jorge's review.

I should mention that while I don't know Throw personally, it is entirely possible that I am am biased in his favor. He and Jorge (along with Boon) have been the most helpful and supportive forum members I have encountered ever since I joined up.

First off, as others have mentioned, the DVD presentation is top-notch. Great menus, easy navigation, and the fanedit featurette was very enjoyable. Throw, I can't imagine how much work it was to rebuild the sound for the "Bad to the Bone" scene, and for me it worked great. Very impressive.

So after checking out the presentation, I dived into the movie itself. I skipped around a bit just to see what things looked and sounded like. On the video side, things seemed to be occasionally slightly blurry, especially during scenes with a lot of motion. It wasn't extreme or anything, but I did notice something seemed slightly off. I put in my Extreme DVD for comparison and didn't notice the same issue. I tried Hands of Fate a second time just to make sure, and the issue was still there. But I have to stress, it didn't seem to be major. If Jorge had not written his review, I might not have even noticed. I am often a lazy viewer. ;) I assume the issue is related to the transfer used, as Throw alluded to above.

The audio was a bit surprising to me. One of my first questions in the ITW thread for this edit was if there would be full 5.1 audio. Throw indicated yes, but as with other upconverted 5.1 edits, I heard dialogue in the rear speakers. Now, it is possible something was set incorrectly on my setup - my receiver was set to "auto decode." But I tried several different modes and I heard dialogue from the rears in all modes. I should ask, Throw, if this is indeed an upconvert. It seems very likely that I simply misunderstood the ITW thread. Wouldn't be the first time :)

So for me personally, while I see where Jorge is coming from, I think the edit should not get a red light for technical quality. I have seen much worse that is approved on FE.org (Blankfist's Star Wars Prequel Trilogy, which I am slowing working through at the moment, has some weird video going on that I don't even know how to describe). Ultimately, the question I have to ask is, with what I've seen, will I still devote 2-1/2 hours to watch this edit? And the answer is most definitely yes. The video did not seem overwhelmingly distracting, and I suspect I'll forget all about it once I get into the movie. And while the upconverted 5.1 is a bit of a disappointment, I'm sure I'll forget about it as well (I had the exact same experience with CBB's Dezionized and UA's Coming Storm, and I still thoroughly enjoyed both edits). Other people may have different opinions on the A/V quality, but for me, it is in no way a deal-breaker.

At any rate, I will share my thoughts on the actual edit once I can watch the whole movie.

Quick side note 1: I had forgotten that the Extreme DVD had an amazing 80 chapters! I fully support a healthy number of chapters (14 is a bit thin for my taste), but 30-40 seems to be about right. Do we really need 80? Was Cameron paid for his commentary by the chapter?

Quick side note 2: Throw, you have an unrelated PM, in case you missed it. Thanks.
 
In Jorge's post where he shows the two pictures of Arnie "smiling" and the picture not extending to the side of the screen in one of ths shots, what is EE? I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean extended edition. :smile:

Is there any way to correct this using software? If so, how would one go about doing it? I'm starting to see this on other commercial DVDs (not fanedits) now he's pointed it out. I notice that when I set my TV to "wide" mode it cannot be seen.
 
Captain Khajiit said:
In Jorge's post where he shows the two pictures of Arnie "smiling" and the picture not extending to the side of the screen in one of ths shots, what is EE? I'm pretty sure it doesn't mean extended edition. :smile:

Edge Enhancement.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edge_enhancement

Captain Khajiit said:
Is there any way to correct this using software? If so, how would one go about doing it? I'm starting to see this on other commercial DVDs (not fanedits) now he's pointed it out. I notice that when I set my TV to "wide" mode it cannot be seen.

Your TV (most likely) cant see it when you zoom because of overscan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overscan

You can fix it by cropping the frame to remove the black line - my true lies source has a similar bar on the left hand side.
 
Thanks very much, elbarto. How did you crop the bar at the side for True Lies? Or if you didn't how would you? :smile:

EDIT: I just found your other thread and posted there, rather than continuing to discuss it here, as it's going off topic.
 
TV's Frink said:
The audio was a bit surprising to me. One of my first questions in the ITW thread for this edit was if there would be full 5.1 audio. Throw indicated yes, but as with other upconverted 5.1 edits, I heard dialogue in the rear speakers. Now, it is possible something was set incorrectly on my setup - my receiver was set to "auto decode." But I tried several different modes and I heard dialogue from the rears in all modes. I should ask, Throw, if this is indeed an upconvert. It seems very likely that I simply misunderstood the ITW thread. Wouldn't be the first time
No, this is indeed how it is mixed on the Ultimate Edition DVD. I was pretty grumpy about the mixing of the channels. I did check the audio from the Extreme DVD (someone sent me a sample) and while it was better, it had weird inconsistencies that I didnt like. Sometimes the channels were nicely separated, while other times things mixed into channels in a weird nonsensical way. In the end I stuck with the UE audio, because I had it already, and it was consistent. T2:HOF is not an upconvert. All in all, I am really disappointed with the T2 DVD releases. I guess I should have tried working completely with HD video (though my PC probably would have slapped me), but audio wise, I have no idea what the best source is, and how much of an improvement it is.


TV's Frink said:
Quick side note 1: I had forgotten that the Extreme DVD had an amazing 80 chapters! I fully support a healthy number of chapters (14 is a bit thin for my taste), but 30-40 seems to be about right. Do we really need 80? Was Cameron paid for his commentary by the chapter?
The Ultimate Edition has this ridiculous number of chapters too. Personally I think its way overkill. I think there should be enough chapters to skip around a bit, or pick up near where you left off easily, but I don't think too many are needed. I also hate having to flip through 5 or more chapter menus to get to where I want to go. 14 was enough for me, and it resulted in 3 chapter menus. Plenty for my tastes :)


TV's Frink said:
Quick side note 2: Throw, you have an unrelated PM, in case you missed it. Thanks.
I got it, and responded. Sorry for my slow as usual response :)
 
so does the bluray suffer from all this bullshit? a crappy transfer and junk audio channel gobbelidygook?
 
joebshmoe said:
so does the bluray suffer from all this bullshit? a crappy transfer and junk audio channel gobbelidygook?

I dont think so (at least for video), but I have no way to verify this. No Bluray at my house... I wouldnt too be surprised if the audio were the same.
 
yep, thats a useful site. I should also point out that the PAL UE doesnt seem to suffer from as many problems as the NTSC UE. It is a progressive disc.
 
so the only way to avoid all that crap is to do use one of the non-R1 DVDs or blurays as source? wtf?

that japanese premium edition looks badass, btw. and i see two ARs listed: 2.20:1 and 2.35:1 in the comparison.

(and what about the skynet edition? anyone know how that compares?)
 
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