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Raiders of the Lost Skull
- Thread starter njvc
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I've been waiting to see this one for a while though. I watched part of Q2's edit, but it just didn't cut the fire ants or a lot of other things I had been wanting it to cut. It didn't feel like Indy. :-( Then I watched most of Wraith's edit, but it didn't cut Doom Town! :-( But according to the cutlist this edit is going to cut all the things I was hoping would be cut in the other two, plus more. 
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cool. i'll work on the special edition after I have completed my silent consecution edit, so should be up in a couple of months. I'm reuploading the AVCHD of version 1 at the moment for anyone who wants to view it in the meantime.
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Viewed it, and loved it. Overall it's about as good as Indy 4 can ever bee (until Hebrides proves me wrong, that is). Really impressed by the use of the music, and by a certain newly created montage I won't discuss in detail so I don't spoil anything.
This said, I agree with other reviewers that the swordfight pretty much needs to be put back, as it's set up but never has a payoff. Otherwise, the references about Mutt knowing fencing should have to go. It's a Chekhov's Gun in the original and it becomes meaningless here.
Otherwise, I'd like to suggest a couple of small tweaks for version 2: One is, I don't know why you kept Spalko asking Indy if he has any last words, since you cut out the payoff (fortunately! No more Republican Indy! THANKS!!!). And other is, you left in one of my most hated bits in the movie: "Professor Henry Jones Jr., Associate Dean". WTF? He's accused of treason and fired, then goes to South America, wrecks some ancient ruins and comes back with an unbelievable story, just to be readmitted with all honors and promoted? Absolutely awful. He's still a Commie for the authorities, so that would just not happen. I would have cut from Stanforth running to him already in the office retrieving the book.
But in any case this is still an awesome edit, and highly recommended!
This said, I agree with other reviewers that the swordfight pretty much needs to be put back, as it's set up but never has a payoff. Otherwise, the references about Mutt knowing fencing should have to go. It's a Chekhov's Gun in the original and it becomes meaningless here.
Otherwise, I'd like to suggest a couple of small tweaks for version 2: One is, I don't know why you kept Spalko asking Indy if he has any last words, since you cut out the payoff (fortunately! No more Republican Indy! THANKS!!!). And other is, you left in one of my most hated bits in the movie: "Professor Henry Jones Jr., Associate Dean". WTF? He's accused of treason and fired, then goes to South America, wrecks some ancient ruins and comes back with an unbelievable story, just to be readmitted with all honors and promoted? Absolutely awful. He's still a Commie for the authorities, so that would just not happen. I would have cut from Stanforth running to him already in the office retrieving the book.
But in any case this is still an awesome edit, and highly recommended!
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Thanks Dwight! It's amazing with this movie, the various suggestions cover almost the entire film, and I guess that tells you something... Man this movie was bad. I'll certainly consider those changes!
Spalko's question is ok, then interrupted by the guard - and indy just Ignore's spalko and (accidentally on purpose?) shoots the guy in the foot. i think this is ok.
The line about fencing, debating etc... we don't see him debating, but that's ok right? I just think that convo sets up the payoff about school - and Indy's line, "if that's what makes you happy", then later "you're gonna go back and finish school!" once he realises he is the father. So that's payoff enough to me. Seriously, nothing in this world could make me consider putting that sword fight back in. I hate it with a passion.
As for the associate dean bit, I feel like there was a scene there that was deleted with the FBI agents clearing Indy's name. I mean talk about set up and no payoff, a scene where we are told he is of great interest, then nothing. So you're right, that's impossible, but I always assumed a scene we didn't get to see, of Henry's name being cleared, was meant to be in there. At least that is possible, unlike mutt having a sword fight on a moving cartoon car. Still I'll try that edit and see how it looks.
Thanks for watching it happy to hear it went down well.
Spalko's question is ok, then interrupted by the guard - and indy just Ignore's spalko and (accidentally on purpose?) shoots the guy in the foot. i think this is ok.
The line about fencing, debating etc... we don't see him debating, but that's ok right? I just think that convo sets up the payoff about school - and Indy's line, "if that's what makes you happy", then later "you're gonna go back and finish school!" once he realises he is the father. So that's payoff enough to me. Seriously, nothing in this world could make me consider putting that sword fight back in. I hate it with a passion.
As for the associate dean bit, I feel like there was a scene there that was deleted with the FBI agents clearing Indy's name. I mean talk about set up and no payoff, a scene where we are told he is of great interest, then nothing. So you're right, that's impossible, but I always assumed a scene we didn't get to see, of Henry's name being cleared, was meant to be in there. At least that is possible, unlike mutt having a sword fight on a moving cartoon car. Still I'll try that edit and see how it looks.
Thanks for watching it
happy to hear it went down well.
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Fair enough, nj. As for that supposed name-clearing scene, since it doesn't happen, the readmission and promotion shouldn't happen either until the deleted scene resurfaces, if it ever existed.
As for that supposed name-clearing scene, since it doesn't happen, the readmission and promotion shouldn't happen either until the deleted scene resurfaces, if it ever existed.
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Just finished watching Raiders of the Lost Skull for a second time:
First of all, I have to commend NJVC for what I can only assume was a massive amount of audio editing. During my second viewing, I watched the AVI version of the film at a very high volume and was surprised at how well you distilled the sound effects and integrated your new score. There were only three scenes in the film where I noticed the audio was not seamless:
1. (36 minutes, 12 Seconds) There was a line of dialogue of Mutt's that you cut during the tipping platform scene, but there is still an echo in the surrounds.
2. (47 minutes, 20 Seconds) There are a number of tiny audio pops during this newly created vision sequence that were distracting at high volume.
3. (57 minutes, 25 seconds) The "s" sound from Indy's cut line can still be heard after he appears with the rocket launcher.
I also agree with other reviewers that the new score was too loud in the mix; however, upon a second viewing, I understood your preference. It seemed very dynamic and I got goosebumps when the choir came in during the trucks entering the gates of Area 51 and when Indy's theme initially kicked in at the warehouse. Though, I still agree it should be tempered.
Now on to the edit itself:
Overall, an improvement in the story but now lacking in action to back it up.
By trimming away the trivial, NJVC has brought the story into focus. Indy is a man newly jaded and lost who seeks greater purpose, Mutt and Marion representing the return of the passion and vigor that has been taken from his life, Mac representing the part of his past he needs to "let go," and Spalko tempting him with the ultimate treasure (knowledge of the universe and "why?"). It doesn't play out to its full potential but it resonates a little more in this cut.
The new score adds to the experience. The tonal shift during the opening by using the Ark theme pulled me into the film right away. The timing of Indy's theme as he kicks the Russian Muscle was quite fun. Hearing the Raider's love theme when Marion shows up at the camp really helped me connect to how Indy was feeling seeing her again. The reveal of the crystal skull itself feels more important with just a change in orchestration. I also liked some clever fun edits NJVC added, such as what he did with the Russians raising and lowering their guns so quickly in the warehouse within a couple shots, the only clue as to why being the positioning of Mac in the background. These kinds of cuts really reward the viewer for paying attention, which is what all film should seek to do.
The biggest success of this edit comes from the vision Indy has while staring into the crystal skull. It goes a long way in establishing this potential "mind weapon" as a threat, while concurrently revealing Indy's subconscious feelings for Marion. (Though, having seen Watchmen, I was slightly taken out of the moment upon first viewing.) This sequence provides well needed narrative thrust going into the finale, helping to better convey what is at stake on both sides.
Herein comes my main problem with the edit. There is no major climactic set piece anymore. The first three Indiana Jones films all have an extended action set piece, typically involving Indy fighting the "muscle" and a chase sequence before a smaller action beat involving the Macguffin. Raiders of the Lost Skull now has a medium action beat followed by the small Macguffin moment. There's a lack of visceral and literal payoff and engagement that one expects after so much exposition and set up.
There are quite a few things that don't amount to anything. Indy mentions the "Cradle"/Grave is guarded by the living dead, but the brief encounter with the natives was cut. Mutt not only mentions his fencing in passing but also a second time in the same scene, slightly boasting that he's "pretty good" at it. Spalko is constantly carrying and pulling out that rapier but never engages an opponent with it. The Russian Muscle has a score to settle with Indy but drives off road without a cutaway to him crashing, or anything that might indicate he's gone for good. Like others have said, since there is no resolution to the FBI subplot, the re-instatement and promotion comes out of nowhere. The continuity error with Mutt during the chase and the fade from Spalko with her eyes ablaze to her ashes flying upwards stood out upon rewatch, as well.
Additionally, I'm not attached to the wedding. It felt quite cheesy and forced then and now. I might have preferred if the movie had ended with Indy's line, "Somewhere your grandpa is laughing," the horns of Indy's theme kicking in as it cuts to credits.
On the hypocritical hand, there are cheesy things I do like and miss. I may be in the minority around this site who really enjoys "You gotta get out of the library," but the new chase ending works perfectly well and is good for pacing. The fight with the Russian Muscle, besides the ants, was one of the more grounded and tense action beats in the original film, and the Muscle's demise plus Indy's hat moment are guilty pleasures of mine. I quite liked "Shake, Rattle, and Roll" during the greaser/preppy brawl. I would be lying if I said my friends and I haven't repeated "You don't know him" and "Three times it drops" in random conversation, even though their omissions are for the better. I also would prefer the grave-robber fight re-inserted and just cut out Indy's "Part time," having him just grin at Mutt. (I like this action beat to break up the exposition before and after it.)
In conclusion, Raiders of the Crystal Skull improves narratively on the original but sacrifices payoff and an extended climax to avoid cheese. I'm sure NJVC is aware of this, but I wish he could have refined the cheese instead, mostly in service of the climax.
7/10 (Orignal Film: 6/10) -- Two steps forward, one step back, in my opinion. Keep up the good work, NJVC.
First of all, I have to commend NJVC for what I can only assume was a massive amount of audio editing. During my second viewing, I watched the AVI version of the film at a very high volume and was surprised at how well you distilled the sound effects and integrated your new score. There were only three scenes in the film where I noticed the audio was not seamless:
1. (36 minutes, 12 Seconds) There was a line of dialogue of Mutt's that you cut during the tipping platform scene, but there is still an echo in the surrounds.
2. (47 minutes, 20 Seconds) There are a number of tiny audio pops during this newly created vision sequence that were distracting at high volume.
3. (57 minutes, 25 seconds) The "s" sound from Indy's cut line can still be heard after he appears with the rocket launcher.
I also agree with other reviewers that the new score was too loud in the mix; however, upon a second viewing, I understood your preference. It seemed very dynamic and I got goosebumps when the choir came in during the trucks entering the gates of Area 51 and when Indy's theme initially kicked in at the warehouse. Though, I still agree it should be tempered.
Now on to the edit itself:
Overall, an improvement in the story but now lacking in action to back it up.
By trimming away the trivial, NJVC has brought the story into focus. Indy is a man newly jaded and lost who seeks greater purpose, Mutt and Marion representing the return of the passion and vigor that has been taken from his life, Mac representing the part of his past he needs to "let go," and Spalko tempting him with the ultimate treasure (knowledge of the universe and "why?"). It doesn't play out to its full potential but it resonates a little more in this cut.
The new score adds to the experience. The tonal shift during the opening by using the Ark theme pulled me into the film right away. The timing of Indy's theme as he kicks the Russian Muscle was quite fun. Hearing the Raider's love theme when Marion shows up at the camp really helped me connect to how Indy was feeling seeing her again. The reveal of the crystal skull itself feels more important with just a change in orchestration. I also liked some clever fun edits NJVC added, such as what he did with the Russians raising and lowering their guns so quickly in the warehouse within a couple shots, the only clue as to why being the positioning of Mac in the background. These kinds of cuts really reward the viewer for paying attention, which is what all film should seek to do.
The biggest success of this edit comes from the vision Indy has while staring into the crystal skull. It goes a long way in establishing this potential "mind weapon" as a threat, while concurrently revealing Indy's subconscious feelings for Marion. (Though, having seen Watchmen, I was slightly taken out of the moment upon first viewing.) This sequence provides well needed narrative thrust going into the finale, helping to better convey what is at stake on both sides.
Herein comes my main problem with the edit. There is no major climactic set piece anymore. The first three Indiana Jones films all have an extended action set piece, typically involving Indy fighting the "muscle" and a chase sequence before a smaller action beat involving the Macguffin. Raiders of the Lost Skull now has a medium action beat followed by the small Macguffin moment. There's a lack of visceral and literal payoff and engagement that one expects after so much exposition and set up.
There are quite a few things that don't amount to anything. Indy mentions the "Cradle"/Grave is guarded by the living dead, but the brief encounter with the natives was cut. Mutt not only mentions his fencing in passing but also a second time in the same scene, slightly boasting that he's "pretty good" at it. Spalko is constantly carrying and pulling out that rapier but never engages an opponent with it. The Russian Muscle has a score to settle with Indy but drives off road without a cutaway to him crashing, or anything that might indicate he's gone for good. Like others have said, since there is no resolution to the FBI subplot, the re-instatement and promotion comes out of nowhere. The continuity error with Mutt during the chase and the fade from Spalko with her eyes ablaze to her ashes flying upwards stood out upon rewatch, as well.
Additionally, I'm not attached to the wedding. It felt quite cheesy and forced then and now. I might have preferred if the movie had ended with Indy's line, "Somewhere your grandpa is laughing," the horns of Indy's theme kicking in as it cuts to credits.
On the hypocritical hand, there are cheesy things I do like and miss. I may be in the minority around this site who really enjoys "You gotta get out of the library," but the new chase ending works perfectly well and is good for pacing. The fight with the Russian Muscle, besides the ants, was one of the more grounded and tense action beats in the original film, and the Muscle's demise plus Indy's hat moment are guilty pleasures of mine. I quite liked "Shake, Rattle, and Roll" during the greaser/preppy brawl. I would be lying if I said my friends and I haven't repeated "You don't know him" and "Three times it drops" in random conversation, even though their omissions are for the better. I also would prefer the grave-robber fight re-inserted and just cut out Indy's "Part time," having him just grin at Mutt. (I like this action beat to break up the exposition before and after it.)
In conclusion, Raiders of the Crystal Skull improves narratively on the original but sacrifices payoff and an extended climax to avoid cheese. I'm sure NJVC is aware of this, but I wish he could have refined the cheese instead, mostly in service of the climax.
7/10 (Orignal Film: 6/10) -- Two steps forward, one step back, in my opinion. Keep up the good work, NJVC.
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Thank you for the detailed and very particular review AEmovieguy, I will definitely take all those thoughts into consideration while preparing version 2. Not much I can do about the lack of a grand finale short of reshoots, or putting the ants back in (yuck), but the technical aspects I will certainly look into. As for the other missing payoffs etc, this is about as good as I can get it I think. We await Hebrides to take story elements to the next level...
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I'm not going to offer a final rating on this because there is a V2 in the works, but I wanted to post my review of the edit as it exists for now.
I have watched every released fanedit to date of Indy 4, waiting for someone to rescue this film and make it something not just watchable, but enjoyable. The two previous versions by Jorge and Q2 both brought excellent changes to the film, but both left a lot of room for improvement, and oddly enough tended to be different things. I've considered making my own edit which combines the best of both into something even better, but I've spent 2 years cleaning up after Lucas, I'm ready for a break!
So, along comes njvc and Raiders of the Lost Skull. Will this be the one?
Not quite, but a huge step in the right direction, and I am hopeful that V2 will help close that gap.
I have to defer a lot to AEmovieguy's review regarding the edit's overall strengths and weaknesses. Particularly with regards to how the action beats play out. Before I get to the glowing part of my review I'll post my thoughts on a few specific points which I hope nj will consider.
1) I believe it was Jorge's version that cut Indy under suspicion. While you lose the nice sequence between Ford and Broadbent in Indy's home, the FBI's watching Indy plot line just evaporates. Even if you cut out the promotion to Dean at the end of the movie, the film makes a huge deal about him getting fired because the FBI thinks he's a person of interest. When I watched the film in the theater I thought this would set up Indy not only racing against the Russians, but also against the Americans as well, perhaps knowing that this power couldn't end up in either government's hands, and eventually clearing his name in the end. That might have actually been a nice twist. But sadly, Indy just jumps on a plane and that's the last we see of that plotline. So personally I'd recommend cutting that entirely because it goes nowhere.
2) The Ants. While the ants are a tad silly, I feel the movie really suffers for losing them, on multiple levels. First and formost that was the one time in the entire film where I saw INDIANA JONES. Nobody takes a punch like Harrison Ford, and even at his age that sequence showed that he could make me believe he was still Indy, get his ass kicked, and then find the strength to beat the crap out of the heavy. Hands down that fight itself is the best action in the entire film. If I can suspend my disbelief long enough to think a man can rip another man's still-beating heart from his chest, and the now heartless victim doesn't die? Well I can accept AOUS's. I know that recommendation won't sit well with everyone, but there it is. But also, by including the fight it also fixes what I feel is the only major continuity issue of the edit and that is Spalko and her team RUNNING to start heading down the cliff. It makes no sense. The entire sequence happens so fast that you can't tell what is going on. I can understand an argument that it's a good thing, that the less we think about it the better but even an action movie needs to come up for air once in a while.
3) A minor annoyance is the Brody statue gag. Quite simply it's poorly executed. While I can accept Flaming Hearts and AOUS, I cannot accept the physics of a car hitting a statue and the head launching TOWARDS THE CAR unless it was just resting on top of the statue, fixed there with tape. But that is a minor gripe and at least the library scene is gone
4) Lastly, I agree that the wedding ending is unnecessary. I for one don't care about the possibility of Mutt taking up the mantle, and the mountaintop scene, complete with reference to Henry Jones Sr. is all the emotional resolution needed.
HOWEVER....
Beyond the surgical improvements that AEmovieguy outlined, and what really separates this edit from the others is impressive use of the Raiders of the Lost Ark soundtrack. While I'm in agreement with everyone that it needs to be turned down a bit, even as is, the music adds so much to the experience that it almost tricks you into enjoying the movie. Even when the action on screen isn't as fantastic as it deserved to be, NJ's masterful use of the score all the right places to evoke all the right emotions, particularly if you were raised on RotLA and know where all the music belongs. Truck chases, foot races, fist-a-cuffs, mysterious revelation... this new version of Indy 4 brashly and unashamedly rides the coat tails of its namesake for all it's worth, and because of this I think it may actually make the viewer feel the movie is better than it may actually be. By borrowing (quite respectfully) one of Williams' most masterful scores of all time, this edit feels fun, feels like adventure, and finally feels mysterious, and also shows what a truly amazing score the original Raiders was.
As the edit currently stands I would give it a solid 7.5 (with the original film being a 5). My hope is that with improved audio balance and perhaps a few minor adjustments this has the potential to hit a 9/10 in my book.
And all from a first-time faneditor, AND in HD.
I have watched every released fanedit to date of Indy 4, waiting for someone to rescue this film and make it something not just watchable, but enjoyable. The two previous versions by Jorge and Q2 both brought excellent changes to the film, but both left a lot of room for improvement, and oddly enough tended to be different things. I've considered making my own edit which combines the best of both into something even better, but I've spent 2 years cleaning up after Lucas, I'm ready for a break!
So, along comes njvc and Raiders of the Lost Skull. Will this be the one?
Not quite, but a huge step in the right direction, and I am hopeful that V2 will help close that gap.
I have to defer a lot to AEmovieguy's review regarding the edit's overall strengths and weaknesses. Particularly with regards to how the action beats play out. Before I get to the glowing part of my review I'll post my thoughts on a few specific points which I hope nj will consider.
1) I believe it was Jorge's version that cut Indy under suspicion. While you lose the nice sequence between Ford and Broadbent in Indy's home, the FBI's watching Indy plot line just evaporates. Even if you cut out the promotion to Dean at the end of the movie, the film makes a huge deal about him getting fired because the FBI thinks he's a person of interest. When I watched the film in the theater I thought this would set up Indy not only racing against the Russians, but also against the Americans as well, perhaps knowing that this power couldn't end up in either government's hands, and eventually clearing his name in the end. That might have actually been a nice twist. But sadly, Indy just jumps on a plane and that's the last we see of that plotline. So personally I'd recommend cutting that entirely because it goes nowhere.
2) The Ants. While the ants are a tad silly, I feel the movie really suffers for losing them, on multiple levels. First and formost that was the one time in the entire film where I saw INDIANA JONES. Nobody takes a punch like Harrison Ford, and even at his age that sequence showed that he could make me believe he was still Indy, get his ass kicked, and then find the strength to beat the crap out of the heavy. Hands down that fight itself is the best action in the entire film. If I can suspend my disbelief long enough to think a man can rip another man's still-beating heart from his chest, and the now heartless victim doesn't die? Well I can accept AOUS's. I know that recommendation won't sit well with everyone, but there it is. But also, by including the fight it also fixes what I feel is the only major continuity issue of the edit and that is Spalko and her team RUNNING to start heading down the cliff. It makes no sense. The entire sequence happens so fast that you can't tell what is going on. I can understand an argument that it's a good thing, that the less we think about it the better
but even an action movie needs to come up for air once in a while. 3) A minor annoyance is the Brody statue gag. Quite simply it's poorly executed. While I can accept Flaming Hearts and AOUS, I cannot accept the physics of a car hitting a statue and the head launching TOWARDS THE CAR unless it was just resting on top of the statue, fixed there with tape. But that is a minor gripe and at least the library scene is gone
4) Lastly, I agree that the wedding ending is unnecessary. I for one don't care about the possibility of Mutt taking up the mantle, and the mountaintop scene, complete with reference to Henry Jones Sr. is all the emotional resolution needed.
HOWEVER....
Beyond the surgical improvements that AEmovieguy outlined, and what really separates this edit from the others is impressive use of the Raiders of the Lost Ark soundtrack. While I'm in agreement with everyone that it needs to be turned down a bit, even as is, the music adds so much to the experience that it almost tricks you into enjoying the movie. Even when the action on screen isn't as fantastic as it deserved to be, NJ's masterful use of the score all the right places to evoke all the right emotions, particularly if you were raised on RotLA and know where all the music belongs. Truck chases, foot races, fist-a-cuffs, mysterious revelation... this new version of Indy 4 brashly and unashamedly rides the coat tails of its namesake for all it's worth, and because of this I think it may actually make the viewer feel the movie is better than it may actually be. By borrowing (quite respectfully) one of Williams' most masterful scores of all time, this edit feels fun, feels like adventure, and finally feels mysterious, and also shows what a truly amazing score the original Raiders was.
As the edit currently stands I would give it a solid 7.5 (with the original film being a 5). My hope is that with improved audio balance and perhaps a few minor adjustments this has the potential to hit a 9/10 in my book.
And all from a first-time faneditor, AND in HD.
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Thank you L8 for the detailed review. I am very impressed at the time you guys take to really give fantastic feedback, it is really appreciated, so thank you to everyone who has done so.
To respond directly to your points L8wrtr, I'm not sure I agree on these points, but I will certainly have a think about them...
The points made, by AE and others regarding beats, action and payoff... It really is a catch 22 hey. Do you want to see Indy throwing some great punches? Well if you do, you must also see him attacked by stupid looking CGI ants that at no point look real, and therefore are completely non-threatening/scary. I realise the story suffers though, so I'm willing to take a vote on this one. Version 1 was how I wanted to see the film, but I'm willing to take group votes on Version 2 and see what everyone feels about it. So let me know, Ants or no Ants? (I vote no, for the record. I'll aim to improve the scene without putting them back in, but if enough people ask for it, then ants there will be.)
As for the FBI scenes, seriously I don't think removing them is a good idea. Those scenes all flow on from one another, and if you remove them, you really are destroying the narrative in the first half of the film. FBI scene achieves more than just telling indy he is of great interest. It's most important feature is that we learn who Spalko is and what she wants. The following scene in the school, where Indy gets fired, is a direct response from the FBI scene, which flows on to the scene in the house, and is the reason Indy gets on the train. Seriously, I have no idea how you would remove the FBI interest without completely destroying the flow of the early narrative. I think living with no conclusion is the lesser of two evils here. I'll consider removing the 'promotion' at the end, but I fear this will remove an important beat before the wedding (which I want to keep by the way. I honestly don't find it too hideous, especially now that the weird jealous look from Mutt has been removed. I also like the moment with Shia at the end.
I know many people hate the statue gag, but seriously, it has never bothered me that much. Actually I kind of like it, and it doesn't mess with my sense of physics as much as it does for you L8 (I never was very good at physics in high school). Physics is one of those things in movies that is always ignored - I know it shouldn't be, but for the creative payoff and the folloup that we get the mirror of the father/son moment from Last Crusade, I really think it's ok. Far less offensive than those bloody ants! And lastly, it's the perfect beat to end in the scene, providing a perfect full stop (to allow for cutting out the library without feeling the loss).
Oh, and one other point you made L8, regarding Spalko opening the warehouse door with her mind? Look again (now in HD, so it's clearer). She doesn't, there's a guy with an explosive device waiting for her order. When she gives the go ahead, he presses the button and blows up the door mechanism on the warehouse, causing the doors to open. So all good there, no mystical powers being utilised that need to be cut.
So unfortunately it appears you may need to recut the film afterall L8, as it seems we disagree on these points! I completely agree that story is sacrificed in order to create an Indy 4 edit, but again, it's catch 22 and you have to decide on the lesser of two evils I guess.
I now throw it open to all of you. Please give me your suggestions and I will take them into consideration to try and create an Indy 4 we can all enjoy... However I am beginning to doubt this is possible.
(Help me Hebrides, you're my only hope...)
Version 2. so far...
- re-balance audio
- minor sound issues (see AEmovieguy and others for details)
- Try and fix the ending of the forest chase (unfortunately, the continuity error with Mutt in the cars will remain, as I will never put the sword fight back into this edit....)
- possibly remove mention of fencing.
I know there are more suggestions in the reviews. I'll take a look through and build a better list soon.
Anything else people would like to suggest?
To respond directly to your points L8wrtr, I'm not sure I agree on these points, but I will certainly have a think about them...
The points made, by AE and others regarding beats, action and payoff... It really is a catch 22 hey. Do you want to see Indy throwing some great punches? Well if you do, you must also see him attacked by stupid looking CGI ants that at no point look real, and therefore are completely non-threatening/scary. I realise the story suffers though, so I'm willing to take a vote on this one. Version 1 was how I wanted to see the film, but I'm willing to take group votes on Version 2 and see what everyone feels about it. So let me know, Ants or no Ants? (I vote no, for the record. I'll aim to improve the scene without putting them back in, but if enough people ask for it, then ants there will be.)
As for the FBI scenes, seriously I don't think removing them is a good idea. Those scenes all flow on from one another, and if you remove them, you really are destroying the narrative in the first half of the film. FBI scene achieves more than just telling indy he is of great interest. It's most important feature is that we learn who Spalko is and what she wants. The following scene in the school, where Indy gets fired, is a direct response from the FBI scene, which flows on to the scene in the house, and is the reason Indy gets on the train. Seriously, I have no idea how you would remove the FBI interest without completely destroying the flow of the early narrative. I think living with no conclusion is the lesser of two evils here. I'll consider removing the 'promotion' at the end, but I fear this will remove an important beat before the wedding (which I want to keep by the way. I honestly don't find it too hideous, especially now that the weird jealous look from Mutt has been removed. I also like the moment with Shia at the end.
I know many people hate the statue gag, but seriously, it has never bothered me that much. Actually I kind of like it, and it doesn't mess with my sense of physics as much as it does for you L8 (I never was very good at physics in high school). Physics is one of those things in movies that is always ignored - I know it shouldn't be, but for the creative payoff and the folloup that we get the mirror of the father/son moment from Last Crusade, I really think it's ok. Far less offensive than those bloody ants! And lastly, it's the perfect beat to end in the scene, providing a perfect full stop (to allow for cutting out the library without feeling the loss).
Oh, and one other point you made L8, regarding Spalko opening the warehouse door with her mind? Look again (now in HD, so it's clearer). She doesn't, there's a guy with an explosive device waiting for her order. When she gives the go ahead, he presses the button and blows up the door mechanism on the warehouse, causing the doors to open. So all good there, no mystical powers being utilised that need to be cut.
So unfortunately it appears you may need to recut the film afterall L8, as it seems we disagree on these points! I completely agree that story is sacrificed in order to create an Indy 4 edit, but again, it's catch 22 and you have to decide on the lesser of two evils I guess.
I now throw it open to all of you. Please give me your suggestions and I will take them into consideration to try and create an Indy 4 we can all enjoy... However I am beginning to doubt this is possible.
(Help me Hebrides, you're my only hope...)
Version 2. so far...
- re-balance audio
- minor sound issues (see AEmovieguy and others for details)
- Try and fix the ending of the forest chase (unfortunately, the continuity error with Mutt in the cars will remain, as I will never put the sword fight back into this edit....)
- possibly remove mention of fencing.
I know there are more suggestions in the reviews. I'll take a look through and build a better list soon.
Anything else people would like to suggest?
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Well, I haven't even seen this yet, but I vote NO ANTS. Payoffs and beats and all that aren't as important to me as the removal of those ants. Also, I agree with AEMovieGuy - if the wedding was just cut that would be great
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NO ANTS please.... They felt so out of place in the original. In my opinion i can live without them
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While I understand L8's point, my vote is NO ANTS.
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Regarding L8wrtr's suggestion of cutting the FBI scenes, there is one, very BOLD, way of dealing with this subplot... cut Indiana Jones out of the Warehouse opening scene.
Make the scene about the Russians breaking into Area 51 and finding the mummified remains, and then cut away after Spalko's eyes bulge.
The next scene would be Indy and Jim Broadbent's character in Indy's home. The scene itself is very ambiguous about why Indy is moving away: "I guess when hysteria reaches academia, it's about time to call it a career." You could just use the Communist/Red Scare subplot as the catalyst for Indiana's retirement from teaching, leaving no loose thread to wrap up with Broadbent's character.
Both Spalko and Mac have long re-introduction/background chats with Indy in the tent later on in the movie anyway, explaining their motives. Mac would just be a mysterious figure tailing Mutt and Indy until he captures them at the Cradle and it's revealed that they know eachother (it also makes Indy less stupid as that is one less double cross).
This would make the first half of the movie more of a mystery about why the Russians are after Indiana Jones. And Indiana Jones wouldn't initially be in the Hat and Jacket until Mutt pulls him into the adventure.
Make the scene about the Russians breaking into Area 51 and finding the mummified remains, and then cut away after Spalko's eyes bulge.
The next scene would be Indy and Jim Broadbent's character in Indy's home. The scene itself is very ambiguous about why Indy is moving away: "I guess when hysteria reaches academia, it's about time to call it a career." You could just use the Communist/Red Scare subplot as the catalyst for Indiana's retirement from teaching, leaving no loose thread to wrap up with Broadbent's character.
Both Spalko and Mac have long re-introduction/background chats with Indy in the tent later on in the movie anyway, explaining their motives. Mac would just be a mysterious figure tailing Mutt and Indy until he captures them at the Cradle and it's revealed that they know eachother (it also makes Indy less stupid as that is one less double cross).
This would make the first half of the movie more of a mystery about why the Russians are after Indiana Jones. And Indiana Jones wouldn't initially be in the Hat and Jacket until Mutt pulls him into the adventure.
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njvc said:
Edit: Sorry for the slightly snarky movie quote response.
The movie would then be ~70 minutes before credits, but I'm not saying it should be done... but just mentioning it could be done. I actually prefer the opening as is.
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I guess it really just highlights how deep the problems in this film actually go. This was what I was trying to say before, if you honestly only keep what is indisputably great about the film, of which everyone can agree...you're left with a shell of a movie, which is really all we have. It's a matter of which painful bits are you willing to live with. I would love to know if there is a deleted scene lying around with the FBI agents showing up at the end. It seems impossile that professional screenwriters (and I understand there were many on this movie) set up such a plot device only to leave it hanging...