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Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice

I've said it before and I'll say it again. My expectations were rock bottom and they couldn't even make that. This film is unfortunately a steaming pile of garbage. Honestly. All I wanted from it was to enjoy the experience just a little bit and it couldn't even do that.

And no, I wasn't seething with anger afterwards and I don't hate Zack Snyder (I actually kind of liked MOS). The problem is this movie is just plain not good.
 
dangermouse said:
I think many people expected a different, "World's Finest" kind of vibe

That's assuming the hundreds of thousands of people that hated it, know what that is. I know I don't? I just expected hoped for a "MOS with the problems fixed and lessons learned" kinda vibe... and we got a MOS with the problems turned up to 11 and none of the good elements of that movie.

You are right about expectations though:

- If you expected MOS part 2... it was a disappointment.
- If you expected a Nolan-esque realistic vision... it was a disappointment.
- If you expected Marvel style fun and humour... it was a disappointment.
- If you expected Superman to behave like Superman and Batman to behave like Batman... it was a disappointment.
- If you wanted to see a live action version of the fight scene from TDKR and nothing else... then you were probably satisfied.

dangermouse said:
I actually think the scores will go up

They aren't, they are steadily going down, from audiences and critics.

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I think the super low scores in the first week were probably the high watermark, as that was when all the DC super fans watched it and god bless 'em, really wanted it to be good (Didn't we all). From now on it's just the average Joes going to the cinema, foolishly expecting Superhero entertainment.

DominicCobb said:
My expectations were rock bottom and they couldn't even make that.

Yep, I heard the bad reviews and I remembered how bad 'Sucker Punch' was but still I somehow managed to set the bar to high going into it.
 
hbenthow said:
a well-received animated movie in the 1990s.

Ahhhh, thanks. I loved the Batman show back in the day but never got into the Superman one as much (I don't think it was broadcast in the UK as frequently. Saturday morning kids TV etc). I'm gonna hold out on a rewatch 'til they get a Blu-Ray release (Fingers crossed).
 
Actually, I think most average Joe's expected a summer blockbuster action fest, and that's what they got (with a bit more depth than the usual schlock). I saw it with a bunch of people with no geek cred at all - and they all thought it was very enjoyable. (maybe we're just more easily pleased here up north :-D )
The one person who disliked it? A DC guy.... So I think BvS problem is that they pissed off their fans!
 
I think that as the initial excitement over the mere existence of a Batman/Superman movie fades, BvS will be rather poorly remembered. The Dark Knight justly remains very popular, but while The Dark Knight Rises was initially embraced also, I don't think many people profess to enjoying it all that much anymore. I know I certainly never intend on seeing it again. What happened to Bats after he rode off into the night, with the cops at his heels? We'll never know. :p

Also, if Civil War lives up to its buzz, I imagine there'll be a large wave of "see, WB, this is how you make a movie about heroes fighting each other" sentiment. With big ideas, characters with genuine disagreements, and a genuinely nasty villain to rally against, as opposed to a mindless cave troll. And when the WB releases the BvS blu ray, and hypes its R-rated cut, we'll have seen Civil War

Meanwhile...

I guess this scene means that Mirror Zuckerberg only learned about Darkseid after cooking up the cave troll? It also means that mere minutes after unleashing said cave troll, instead of monitoring the massive and ongoing battle he's unleashed, he decides to do more galactic research in the ship? What makes sense that does?!   :dodgy:
 
This BvS witty rant/review video had me in stitches :D . It's mostly the Geordie accent, especially when he's voicing the character's internal monologues in said Northern English accent. He also makes quite a few interesting critical observations. Do check it out but it's peppered with naughty language so be warned...

 
Ah the North East of England... That was pretty funny!  :D

I enjoyed the film personally but it is a mess and one thing that guy is bang on about is the lack of establishing shots, I noticed that on my first viewing!  :-/
 
TM2YC said:
This BvS witty rant/review video had me in stitches :D . It's mostly the Geordie accent, especially when he's voicing the character's internal monologues in said Northern English accent. He also makes quite a few interesting critical observations. Do check it out but it's peppered with naughty language so be warned...


Thank you @"TM2YC" for that vid. I still haven't seen BvS, and by all accounts, I refuse to reward Snyder or Warner Brothers for this. I'll eventually catch this on cable, but every review, even ones where it's clear the reviewer is just being as harsh as they can to pile on, makes it abundantly clear just how much this movie pisses all over the DC universe, and in particular, one of my all-time favorite characters in Superman.

Now granted, it's really impossible to say that there is a 'definitive' Superman to betray. Superman has become, like James Bond or Westerns, a method for exploring stories using a filter of the current time period, culture, values, fears, and beliefs. But through all the various origin mythologies, rules for his universe and tonal varieties, Superman is always consistently about a few core things:
  • Unflagging moral certainty in right and wrong. Yes there are short-run off-shoots or stand-alone stories where Superman may have doubts on how he integrates those beliefs with culture of the day, but Superman is confident and unflagging in his moral uprightness. Now some people despise this boy scout nature of the character, and that's fine, you can despise his construct or scoff at such a binary world view, but it is a constant core aspect of his character. He may have some issues with particulars of a politician or government, but he operates from a place of moral certainty that defines how he responds to any crisis. He is decisive. He is a character of action, but pretty much always with a sense of humility (war years Superman was admittedly a little rough around the edges and could be a bit cocky from time to time when dealing with villains)
  • Idealist - A representation of all the best things that we aspire to. Now this may be a particularly, or acutely American thing to latch on to with regard to his character, but throughout the ages, throughout his various incarnations, Superman is idealistic. Again, right or wrong, naive or silly, this is a core aspect of his character.  He seeks to help humanity (the United States in particular.. again, right or wrong) be better.. to be all that they can be, to fight for the little guy and defend them against the wrongs of oppressors.
  • Hope - Lastly, Superman is about hope. FFS, it's even a straight line from MoS, but they can't manage to translate that on screen. Superman is at his core, a symbol of hope. A reassurance that we SHOULD be aspiring to be high ideals and value morals, that wrongs can be righted, that the little guy CAN overcome impossible odds.
Man of Steal was a jumbled mess, but not so far off target that it didn't have promise. While it didn't spit on Superman, it fell way short on most levels. In fact I found the most interesting/intriguing part of the film to be the Krypton sequence. I left the theater wanting a prequel that told more about Jor-El's story on Krypton, and not wanting to think about the destruction porn that the Smallville midpoint and Metropolis finale represented. This wasn't Superman fighting shadows from his father's past, it was just two low-brow near-gods having an MMF battle in Metropolis. Even worse, I found Zod's character infinitely more interesting and compelling than Superman's. Snyder's take on Superman was the least interesting or compelling part of the story (never mind the horrible screen treatment)

Unfortunately every indication is that this newest iteration of Superman takes all of the worst aspects of MoS and doesn't just double-down, but bets the entire house on them. The video merely confirms all the worst aspects of every write-up I could stomach through. 

So in response I've been immersing myself in my Son of Jor-El edit, the joy that is Chris Reeve, Tom Mankiewicz and Richard Donner's take on Superman, as well as Brian Singer's tragically maligned love letter that is Superman Returns. 

Hope. Grace. Humility. Confidence. Those are the trademarks of what make a compelling and enjoyable Superman for me, and there doesn't appear to be an ounce of that in Snyder's cynical, violent and murky approach to Earth's Greatest Protector.
 
Well said, L8!

I've seen multiple sources (including the otherwise brilliant Half in the Bag review) that said that there's no way to do Superman like he's been done in the past, because these are much darker and more cynical times than we've had in the past. But as an article I read points out, that notion is ridiculous. Superman first became popular when Hitler was on the rise to power and it wasn't certain that he wasn't going to win. The movies came about in the late '70s, after a couple of decades of significant social unrest, political assassinations, an oil crisis and the Watergate scandal. How were those less dark or cynical times?

Indeed, I think that it's during our darkest and most cynical times that we most need a positive character like Superman.
 
i can vouch that L8's son of jor-el is worth touching yourself to. :shy:

gotta watch that again soon.
 
ssj said:
i can vouch that L8's son of jor-el is worth touching yourself to. :shy:

gotta watch that again soon.

t'ank you good sir.

Would you then enjoy it in glorious HD?
 
Anyone else feel kinda bad for Doomsday, even in the theater? He's born without a mother into a world without a sun, and people immediately try to kill him. Maybe it had to be done, but a Spock or a Data would have taken a moment to mourn nevertheless. Even if Doomsday was a fundamentally irredeemable cockroach, because alien genetics, let the record show that in their first-ever live action meeting, Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman teamed up to slaughter a baby.

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I still haven't seen the movie, but based on everything I've heard, that's a strong insight that others haven't noted yet, Gaith. 

It feels like we're living in a dark alternate universe. How are we not living in a world where there was already a more lighthearted live-action team-up between these characters in the '80s or '90s? 

That said, the people in this thread who like the movie have been very eloquent. I've read a lot of ridiculous stuff on Facebook and elsewhere, but this thread has been very measured and thoughtful by people on both sides.
 
A shocking comparison to make is between the financial success (or lack thereof) between BvS and Deadpool.

One features three of the most famous, lucrative and bankable comic-book characters of all time. One features an obscure character that nobody outside of a tiny minority had ever heard of.

The shocking part is that they have done very similar business (Around the $800 million mark). It's also astonishing to consider that Fox could have made Deadpool and three sequels to Deadpool, for the same amount of cash WB spent on BvS. Only adults were able to see Deadpool (and some kids of irresponsible parents) while everyone from adults to the smallest children wanted to see and were able to see a Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman movie.

Okay BvS isn't tecnically a box office bomb, having more than recouped it's budget (and then some) and is still playing to a rapidly dwindling audience but still jesus christ, some heads should role over this movies performance. If WB and DC don't drastically rethink the direction they are heading with this franchise, they are stuborn beyond the expression of words. But sadly it's too late, they already started shooting Justice League as of last week, with all the same team working on it. They are on a train hurtling to disaster that they can't get off.

Help them Superman!!!  :D

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(^ I've got this cover framed on my wall btw)
 
^ As much as I enjoy whaling on the Synderverse, and snickering that BvS won't be joining the billion club, I do think the WB is in a bit of a bind with their DC movies. If they made them light and fun and frothy, lots of people would say they're just aping the MCU formula, and that could hurt them at the box office as well, so the decision to make more somber and serious movies with darker/richer color palettes isn't necessarily a bad one.

Trouble is, if you're going to make more somber and more serious movies, they've got to actually be good, as it's a lot easier to forgive the flaws of more lighthearted flicks. You can't have newspaper editors telling random journalists "you're on sports today", or dropping in pointless dream sequences that confuse even major geeks, or having a villain whose motivations make little to no sense. And maybe Superman, Batman, and WW shouldn't share a cinematic universe at all; maybe they're just too tonally and powers-wise mismatched...
 
Well said, both TM2YC and Gaith.

I do wish that the filming of the Justice League movie had been set for several months from now, so that WB could have time to figure out how to do a course correction (if one is even possible at this point). In fact, considering that Ben Affleck's Batman is one of the few things receiving nearly unanimous praise, I think moving forward with a Batfleck movie next would be more prudent than moving forward with JL until the filmmakers figure out the next step.

But that's not what's going to happen, so what can you do? I have a feeling that there are going to be some extremely forced, awkward moments of humor in JL in the middle of a story that will probably be as bleak as this one seems to be.

And, yes, making the movies dark can work. I have a friend who mostly only likes Golden and Silver Age DC, and even he says that The Dark Knight is the best Batman movie, because it's just that good

Having said all that, I look forward to the 4-hour director's cut. I confess that I didn't understand the appeal of Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings movies until after I had the chance to see the extended version of Fellowship. Once scenes had some space to breathe and characters had a chance to develop, I was all in for the whole franchise. 

I hope Warner's even releases B v S across two discs like they did with Fellowship, so that there's a natural stopping place / intermission to digest what they've seen of the movie so far.
 
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