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Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice
- Thread starter ShortRound24
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I saw the film at IMAX last night, and gotta say, I was pleasantly surprised. My expectations were as low as possible, given the scathing reviews, so perhaps I was attuned to what was good in it, and ready for what was bad. Regardless, I enjoyed myself and I think my dad did too.
Some thoughts:
- I felt really sorry for Superman in this movie. Rather than seeing him as mopey and disinterested in the human race, I thought he was conflicted about how to fulfil the intention to "save the world". It seems that no matter what he does, he gets people worshipping him like a god or rejecting him/blaming him for the consequences of his efforts. I do think his intention was to do good, and to help the world. I liked Cavill's performance in this movie more than in MOS, and was pleased that he got to smile twice... It's not my ideal version of Superman, but I understand what Snyder was going for.
- Batman was amazingly good. I didn't care that he killed people. Burton's Batman was a murderer too, and he's probably still my favourite Batman. But Affleck was a highlight in this film. And wonder woman was great too, for what little time we got to spend with her.
- I enjoyed Eisenberg's performance. Yes he was hammy/campy, but I enjoyed it and found it gave the movie a much needed different flavour (Cherry?). I also felt that his motivations were simple, but made sense to me. He was abused by his father, and came to hate God as a result. So he's a crazy, entitled, abused, god hating psychopath. I can buy that as reason to want to kill superman and unleash a monster on the city. I've heard people criticise his motives, saying "What was his endgame in unleashing the monster?". I guess I'm ok with the idea that he assumed the monster would kill Superman, but also because he is a crazy, entitled, abused, god hating psychopath.
- The first 2/3 of the film was really enjoyable. I didn't mind that the plot jumped around all over the place, I was able to follow it and it made sense. The dense plotting was part of the enjoyment for me, whereas MOS felt predictable and bland. I was also pleasantly surprised to find that most of the film was quite artistically directed, photographed and well acted. There are a few plot holes or confusing elements, and some strange editing choices, but nothing that made me cringe or groan. I thought it was fine, and understood why every element was there. (Except perhaps for the experimental bullets plot point...)
- Once the BvS fight begins, the movie goes downhill for me. It was out of character for Superman to say "If I wanted it, you'd be dead already". This line was only there to keep the fight going because the movie needed it to. Superman should have said something very different there, given his motivations at that point in the film, which I won't spoil here, or use spoiler tags because I'm lazy.
- The fight with big D is perhaps the ugliest, noisiest, crappiest looking thing I've seen in any Superhero movie. It's a complete and utter mess, and looks like it belongs in a different film, compared to all the carefully composed and well-directed shots from earlier on the film. The creature is poorly rendered with a crappy looking design, and the setting for the fight just never looks in any way believable. There are several aspects of this scene that make no sense (eg, nukes in space), but I had checked out and waited for it to be over at this point.
- the multiple endings didn't bother me either. It felt like it found its footing again after a big drop of the ball in the final battle scene, but truthfully, many superhero movies are guilty of this sin, dating back to the first X-Men movie.
So all in all, the biggest relief was that Superman was in this movie. I was worried Snyder had butchered his character, but I ended up disagreeing with the critics on this one. That was Superman, but he's still figuring out how best to save the world and help humanity. I have full confidence he'll get there.
7/10
Some thoughts:
- I felt really sorry for Superman in this movie. Rather than seeing him as mopey and disinterested in the human race, I thought he was conflicted about how to fulfil the intention to "save the world". It seems that no matter what he does, he gets people worshipping him like a god or rejecting him/blaming him for the consequences of his efforts. I do think his intention was to do good, and to help the world. I liked Cavill's performance in this movie more than in MOS, and was pleased that he got to smile twice... It's not my ideal version of Superman, but I understand what Snyder was going for.
- Batman was amazingly good. I didn't care that he killed people. Burton's Batman was a murderer too, and he's probably still my favourite Batman. But Affleck was a highlight in this film. And wonder woman was great too, for what little time we got to spend with her.
- I enjoyed Eisenberg's performance. Yes he was hammy/campy, but I enjoyed it and found it gave the movie a much needed different flavour (Cherry?). I also felt that his motivations were simple, but made sense to me. He was abused by his father, and came to hate God as a result. So he's a crazy, entitled, abused, god hating psychopath. I can buy that as reason to want to kill superman and unleash a monster on the city. I've heard people criticise his motives, saying "What was his endgame in unleashing the monster?". I guess I'm ok with the idea that he assumed the monster would kill Superman, but also because he is a crazy, entitled, abused, god hating psychopath.
- The first 2/3 of the film was really enjoyable. I didn't mind that the plot jumped around all over the place, I was able to follow it and it made sense. The dense plotting was part of the enjoyment for me, whereas MOS felt predictable and bland. I was also pleasantly surprised to find that most of the film was quite artistically directed, photographed and well acted. There are a few plot holes or confusing elements, and some strange editing choices, but nothing that made me cringe or groan. I thought it was fine, and understood why every element was there. (Except perhaps for the experimental bullets plot point...)
- Once the BvS fight begins, the movie goes downhill for me. It was out of character for Superman to say "If I wanted it, you'd be dead already". This line was only there to keep the fight going because the movie needed it to. Superman should have said something very different there, given his motivations at that point in the film, which I won't spoil here, or use spoiler tags because I'm lazy.
- The fight with big D is perhaps the ugliest, noisiest, crappiest looking thing I've seen in any Superhero movie. It's a complete and utter mess, and looks like it belongs in a different film, compared to all the carefully composed and well-directed shots from earlier on the film. The creature is poorly rendered with a crappy looking design, and the setting for the fight just never looks in any way believable. There are several aspects of this scene that make no sense (eg, nukes in space), but I had checked out and waited for it to be over at this point.
- the multiple endings didn't bother me either. It felt like it found its footing again after a big drop of the ball in the final battle scene, but truthfully, many superhero movies are guilty of this sin, dating back to the first X-Men movie.
So all in all, the biggest relief was that Superman was in this movie. I was worried Snyder had butchered his character, but I ended up disagreeing with the critics on this one. That was Superman, but he's still figuring out how best to save the world and help humanity. I have full confidence he'll get there.
7/10
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njvc said:
Yeah, I don't understand people beeing upset by Batman killing people. Plus most of the time you don't really see them "dead" anyway. They could just be "really injured" if you wish to think so, lol.
What I find interesting is that a lot of people who did not enjoy the movie a lot find that it has redeeming quality anyway and can rate it a 6,5/10 (like myself), and people who seem to like it way more (like you) don't rate it a lot more than 7/10.
So, you always have people who loved it or hated it but it seems that the vast majority agree about this movie's qualities and flaws and can find a way to somehow enjoy the movie.
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Yeah, I can't give it more than a 7 because a genuinely hated the climactic battle at almost every level. But there was certainly enough to enjoy around that monstrosity of a scene.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I really enjoyed a lot of the music. They borrowed heavily from Mozart's Requiem Mass, very dramatic chords and choral voices, much more melodically interesting that the Man of Steel score, which was rhythmically interesting, but had almost no interest melodically.
EDIT 2: The scenes shot specifically for IMAX looked incredible. I wish there had been more of them. Also, the opening credits font was nice and understated. Also, going back into the final battle of Man of Steel from a different vantage point reminded me of Back to the Future 2, and I loved it. Ok done.
EDIT: I forgot to mention that I really enjoyed a lot of the music. They borrowed heavily from Mozart's Requiem Mass, very dramatic chords and choral voices, much more melodically interesting that the Man of Steel score, which was rhythmically interesting, but had almost no interest melodically.
EDIT 2: The scenes shot specifically for IMAX looked incredible. I wish there had been more of them. Also, the opening credits font was nice and understated. Also, going back into the final battle of Man of Steel from a different vantage point reminded me of Back to the Future 2, and I loved it. Ok done.
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I personally don't care if Batman kills. Almost all of the movie ones do, after all. The only reason it annoyed me this time is because Batman is on a crusade against Superman for engaging in a fight that ended lives. And then he goes on to do the same thing several times himself, killing and destroying property to get what he wants.TMBTM said:
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I think the fact that ^ really isn't clear is a great example of character motivations that were problematic for me. Also, Batman purposefully leads a massive threat from an uninhabited area INTO Gotham. All the conversation about this movie seems to sort of come down to whether character motives which are not very clear in the text of the movie make it hard to get into and care about OR whether you viscerally respond to the characters regardless and they put them in a convoluted story that was fine and then packed in tons of nods to a really cool DC Universe.
EDIT: I mean the conversations as a whole on the web and in person, not just here. Also, there are TONS of other aspects of the movie which factor in but I think this is sort of the heart of it. If you can't get into characters, it is easy to pick apart all the seams of a film.
EDIT: I mean the conversations as a whole on the web and in person, not just here. Also, there are TONS of other aspects of the movie which factor in but I think this is sort of the heart of it. If you can't get into characters, it is easy to pick apart all the seams of a film.
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There was almost zero characterization. It's so funny that people are complaining about Batman killing people. Who cares? The movie had bigger problems. That's a legitimate interpretation of the character (there are actually many interesting ideas here, which is probably the best I can say for the film, except none of them are explored in any sort of meaningful/sensical way). What's dumb is that they should have used that to show an ideological difference between Batman and Superman, but no. Motivations are never clear and often inexistent. This might have one of the worst screenplays I've ever seen for a blockbuster of this kind. Total failure on pretty much every level, and fairly unenjoyable for the most part. I'd give it a 3/10, and this is going in with rock bottom expectations.
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^ Wait what...
Why would Snyder do that and what was the point of doing it?
On another subject... as far as I understand Nolan had little to do with BvS? (He's listed as one of the 7 exec producers but that can just be a name only thing sometimes). However, Nolan co-wrote the story for MOS, co-produced MOS and Nolan's Syncopy was one of the companies involved with producing it. MOS was generally good and BvS generally sucked. Did this movie simply lack Nolan reigning Snyder in?
...the poor guy that got brutally shot in the face in the opening act was Jimmy Olsen?
Why would Snyder do that and what was the point of doing it?
On another subject... as far as I understand Nolan had little to do with BvS? (He's listed as one of the 7 exec producers but that can just be a name only thing sometimes). However, Nolan co-wrote the story for MOS, co-produced MOS and Nolan's Syncopy was one of the companies involved with producing it. MOS was generally good and BvS generally sucked. Did this movie simply lack Nolan reigning Snyder in?
Fettclone1
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I'm going back on what I said when Affleck was announced and I'm going to see this soon. Ironically, it's because he actually won me over and I hear he's the best part of the movie.
I've read the negative reviews and sometimes positive fan comments and figured, screw it, it's a decent Batman being featured.
For the extended release we'll have a movie with some good moments in an already bloated film along with (reportedly) an additional 30 minutes of material.
It's a faneditor's wet dream.
I've read the negative reviews and sometimes positive fan comments and figured, screw it, it's a decent Batman being featured.
For the extended release we'll have a movie with some good moments in an already bloated film along with (reportedly) an additional 30 minutes of material.
It's a faneditor's wet dream.
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TM2YC said:
I just listened to his Empire interview yesterday and his logic was that he wanted to make sure and do that early on to symbolically represent the death of the old comic world you knew. Basically, to let you know what kind of world you're in.
I found his reasoning logical but very tone-deaf. Plus you generally shouldn't have to set the tone in a sequel.
The interview is only about fifteen minutes but very enlightening. He talks about secret identity knowledge, Lex creating the JL members' logos, killing Supes (it was obviously the way to go from the start, because Snyder wanted Batman to be the one to assemble the team, seriously) and more. If you're like me and fascinated with how some of the stranger choices in the film came to be, check it out. I've never prescribed to the whole "he did a bunch of dumb shit seemingly randomly because he hates Superman" crap. Thought goes into pretty much every frame of most movies, and definitely here. Snyder is mega obsessed with the idea of killing a god and very proud of finding the Martha thing in order to humanize Supes to Batman, so...yeah. I think he doesn't "get" old school Superman at all and super loves Frank Miller's Batman and samurai.
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TM2YC said:
It's on the Empire podcast so you can use any podcast app on your phone, or it's embedded here: http://www.empireonline.com/movies/...batman-v-superman-zack-snyder-empire-podcast/
They also speak with Deborah Snyder and Charles Roven in detail about it. It's actually a lot of explaining what was going on in parts, as well as some big picture stuff.
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Wow. I thought the Batmobile was CG - but it's REEEAAAAL!
Check these behind the scenes shots - cooler than what was in the movie, perhaps?
From 2:31 onwards
Check these behind the scenes shots - cooler than what was in the movie, perhaps?
From 2:31 onwards
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Sweet, Christopher Reeves saves the day again 
I didn't hate BvS, it just bored the life out of me. Never thought I'd say that about a Bats or Supe film, never mind the two characters actually being in the same film. So bad.
I didn't hate BvS, it just bored the life out of me. Never thought I'd say that about a Bats or Supe film, never mind the two characters actually being in the same film. So bad.