Transformers 2

[Gieferg]

Alice was a Pretender

She was pretender in name only. I mean, screenwriters call her that name, but she has nothing to do with G1 pretenders. Just T-X clone like JasonN said. But I dont hate her that much as retarded Twins and perverted Wheelie (but her scene with Sam in BBB had to go).


And in the third movie I would like to see:
- Unicron, or at least Decepticon transforming into aircraft carrier
- Sam as headmaster (cause he must have his big role, and if he will running with some sort of ancient artefact for a third time I will puke...)
- some aerial fight between bots & cons
- battle in the rain (new challenge for CGI artists working on TF series)

And I definitely dont want to see:
- twins and Wheelie
- Leo
- another useless blond chick

 

[Remixed by Jorge]

Not me. But I do love a little spirited discussion now and then.

Nope.

Probably not, killbillme, but I hate this movie so god-damn much that I'm gonna try anyway!

Oh, ok. Just checking.

 

[TV's Frink]

- another useless blond chick

No such thing

 

[Kevinicus]

It came from out of NOWHERE and was NEVER EXPLAINED at all to the audience, so why should they just automatically accept that certain Transformers have instant teleportation abilities?

Why does everything have to be explained in this movie?? I swear this is the only movie that I've seen people want every single shred of information past, present, and future explained for every individual frame. They're extremely advanced robots that Transform. That's not explained, it's just accepted that they can do that. Why is it such a jump to think they've figured away to manipulate space? They're not exactly from the moon, they had to get here somehow.

Nooo... she was a younger, slutty T-X from Terminator 3. :roll:

So, what's the problem with a young slutty blonde again? I agree her character wasn't that great and had minimal purpose, but outside of a few of her lines, it wasn't awful.

I don't have to have that much knowledge of "Transformer lore" or whatever to be able to spot a "near-death experience" scene in a movie, because that is exactly what this was: an NDE in which Sam meets the ghosts of the former Primes, in which they give all this talk about "Fate", how bringing Optimus back to life was always Sam's "destiny", how he needs to return and "Fulfill your Destiny", yada, yada yada.... :|

Yeah, it was a near death experience, it still wasn't robot heaven, and they weren't ghosts either. And I agree that it's not a great scene (particularly the look and feel), and I don't care much for the talk of "fate" either, but entering the Matrix where the other Prime's exist is a part of the Transformers lineage and not completely out of place. This is one part I wish they had touched on a little more, perhaps in the 3rd one they will, along with more revelations about what the Matrix really is.

In other words, EXACTLY like Leo and the twins Skids and Mudflap.
(who all contributed utter jack-sh*t NOTHING to the plot... and weren't as good looking as Maggie )

No, the Twins didn't contribute to the plot, but they were entertaining as hell IMO. The best characters in the movieverse outside of Optimus. Leo was pretty useless and Simmons could have been brought in some other way, but for the most part he was in the background and basically just a minor annoyance.

The film isn't great by any means, or even very good (I would just say good and leave it at that), but IMO it was leaps and bounds better than the original. The original would get about a 5/10 from me whereas ROTF probably around a 7.5/10. Even if it was almost entirely just Sam watching grass grow, if the forest battle was included it would be better than the original.

UA:


Jetfire was in stasis lock, not dead. How did he get to the museum? I'm not sure, how did all the other planes get there? I'm sure the military moved him in there at some point after he went into stasis. He was an old broken down Transfomer. He didn't have to be asleep since the 70's as that plane was around long after that. And why didn't they notice an extra jet?? Could be any number of reasons. Why didn't they notice an extra F22 with Starscream? Why didn't they notice that an F22 that was on base had flown off on it's own (though it's plausible they did but couldn't tell anyone because communications were down)? Why didn't they know about an extra tank, a mine sweeper, etc? I don't need to know Jetfire's entire history for it to make sense.

There's plenty of ways people can come up with to explain how he got there, and I think one of the prequel novels actually does have an explanation, but I haven't read them. As for his logo, I don't think a small little emboss on his underside is going to make anyone think he isn't a real jet. The few who really looked at it may have wondered about it, but probably felt it was ultimately unimportant.

As for Wheelie, I don't believe he was ever concerned with Prime at that point, he was just trying to locate the seekers. There's a good chance he doesn't even know Prime is dead at that point, and since he's still acting as a Decepticon there's a good chance he wouldn't chime in on a way to fix him if he did know. And just because he knows the splinter could wake up Jetfire doesn't mean that the splinter could revive anyone or if he would know that. As a Decepticon he knows more than most Autobots probably, but he certainly didn't come across as a huge expert or anything, the other Decepticons brought in a "doctor" to revive Megatron with a much larger piece of the cube.

 

[TV's Frink]

Why does everything have to be explained in this movie?? I swear this is the only movie that I've seen people want every single shred of information past, present, and future explained for every individual frame.

You've never seen The Matrix Reloaded or Revolutions?

 

[Gieferg]

No, the Twins didn't contribute to the plot, but they were entertaining as hell IMO.

They would be. If I were 10 year old kid.

The best characters in the movieverse outside of Optimus.

The original would get about a 5/10 from me whereas ROTF probably around a 7.5/10.

For me 8/10 and 5/10 respectively.

 

[JasonN]

Why does everything have to be explained in this movie?? I swear this is the only movie that I've seen people want every single shred of information past, present, and future explained for every individual frame. They're extremely advanced robots that Transform. That's not explained, it's just accepted that they can do that. Why is it such a jump to think they've figured away to manipulate space? They're not exactly from the moon, they had to get here somehow.

Funny... I thought that they all came on the those giant f***ing meteorites that were shown in both movies, but I guess you must have hidden knowledge that no one else in the audience possesses...

So, what's the problem with a young slutty blonde again? I agree her character wasn't that great and had minimal purpose, but outside of a few of her lines, it wasn't awful.

It was a pointless and idiotic character who served no purpose than to give Michael Bay and a few thousand teenage boys hard d*cks...

Yeah, it was a near death experience, it still wasn't robot heaven, and they weren't ghosts either. And I agree that it's not a great scene (particularly the look and feel), and I don't care much for the talk of "fate" either, but entering the Matrix where the other Prime's exist is a part of the Transformers lineage and not completely out of place. This is one part I wish they had touched on a little more, perhaps in the 3rd one they will, along with more revelations about what the Matrix really is.

And pray tell, where in the movie is this specific information? Was it in the "G1 TV series"? A "prequel novel", perhaps? Maybe a "video game"?
(God, this is just like the Matrix sequels all over again...)

No, the Twins didn't contribute to the plot, but they were entertaining as hell IMO. The best characters in the movieverse outside of Optimus.

.... Why?
I'm not joking, I'm being flat-out serious here - what specifically is it about these two retarded, sh*t-spewing, biggot-inducing, intellegence-dropping, pointlessly-asinine FOOLS that you believe makes them the best characters of the movie next to Optimus Prime?

The film isn't great by any means, or even very good (I would just say good and leave it at that), but IMO it was leaps and bounds better than the original. The original would get about a 5/10 from me whereas ROTF probably around a 7.5/10. Even if it was almost entirely just Sam watching grass grow, if the forest battle was included it would be better than the original.

A five minute battle sequence doesn't make one movie "leaps and bounds" better than another, which pretty much tells me that I'm completely wasting my time arguing over this movie with you...

 

[Kevinicus]

Why does everything have to be explained in this movie?? I swear this is the only movie that I've seen people want every single shred of information past, present, and future explained for every individual frame. They're extremely advanced robots that Transform. That's not explained, it's just accepted that they can do that. Why is it such a jump to think they've figured away to manipulate space? They're not exactly from the moon, they had to get here somehow.

Funny... I thought that they all came on the those giant f***ing meteorites that were shown in both movies, but I guess you must have hidden knowledge that no one else in the audience possesses...

So, what's the problem with a young slutty blonde again? I agree her character wasn't that great and had minimal purpose, but outside of a few of her lines, it wasn't awful.

It was a pointless and idiotic character who served no purpose than to give Michael Bay and a few thousand teenage boys hard d*cks...

Yeah, it was a near death experience, it still wasn't robot heaven, and they weren't ghosts either. And I agree that it's not a great scene (particularly the look and feel), and I don't care much for the talk of "fate" either, but entering the Matrix where the other Prime's exist is a part of the Transformers lineage and not completely out of place. This is one part I wish they had touched on a little more, perhaps in the 3rd one they will, along with more revelations about what the Matrix really is.

And pray tell, where in the movie is this specific information?
The "G1 TV series"? A "prequel novel", perhaps? Maybe a "video game"?
(God, this is just like the Matrix sequels all over again...)

No, the Twins didn't contribute to the plot, but they were entertaining as hell IMO. The best characters in the movieverse outside of Optimus.

.... Why?
I'm not joking, I'm being flat-out serious here - what specifically is it about these two retarded, sh*t-spewing, biggot-inducing, intellegence-dropping, pointlessly-asinine FOOLS that you believe makes them the best characters of the movie next to Optimus Prime?

The film isn't great by any means, or even very good (I would just say good and leave it at that), but IMO it was leaps and bounds better than the original. The original would get about a 5/10 from me whereas ROTF probably around a 7.5/10. Even if it was almost entirely just Sam watching grass grow, if the forest battle was included it would be better than the original.

A five minute battle sequence doesn't make one movie "leaps and bounds" better than another, which pretty much tells me that I'm completely wasting my time trying arguing over this movie with you...

The Autobots/Decepticons didn't come all the way from Cybertron as meteorites, that's how they entered the atmosphere. If you notice Jetfire is a seeker, an older, more knowledgeable Transformer. They know how to do things the current Transformers don't. It took the current Autobots a very long time (thousands of years) to make it to Earth. If they had the ability to travel via space bridge they wouldn't have taken so long. I just don't see why this is something that is difficult to accept.

Alice wasn't completely pointless, her character served a purpose for the Decepticons which was to keep tabs on Sam. Not a great character by any means, but serves more of a purpose than Maggie/Glenn.

No, they didn't explain Sam going in the Matrix well, and I said that's one part I wished they had explained more. But it is a nod to the series. Are they not allowed to have any of those? You know things that fans (or fans' husbands) would catch that not everyone would be aware of.


The Twins are just funny. If you don't understand why, or don't find them funny, I can't explain it to you. And I think a grown adult would actually find them much more enjoyable than a 10 year old. What they say is stupid sure, but the way they say things, and their attitude and the fact that they're robots saying those things and acting that way just makes them immensely humorous and enjoyable in an odd quirky way. To me those characters lampoon the many people who try to act like that in real life, and I find it very amusing. If that's outside of your humor, then so be it. They are a matter of taste, many people love them, many hate them. Though, to call them biggot inducing, or racist is pretty foolish IMO.


An action sequence normally wouldn't make it better than some other decent movie, but most of the original Transformers wasn't much better than watching grass grow, and the forest fight was leaps and bounds beyond anything in the original as far as action goes. It was leaps and bounds above anything else in ROTF too for that matter, but not by such a large degree. My statement was a hyperbole, and just used to make a point, or repeat it rather, that ROTF was easily the better movie, and nothing in either movie comes close to that scene.

 

[zeppelinrox]

I forgot about the whole "Only a Prime can kill a Prime" rule and yet Megatron killed Optimus Prime, yes?
My memory is a bit fuzzy but I'm pretty sure that this is correct... and that Megatron is NOT a Prime and well...

I guess rules are made to be broken so it's all part of a great movie and adds to the thematic plot, right ChldsPlay?

 

[Uncanny Antman]

I forgot about the whole "Only a Prime can kill a Prime" rule and yet Megatron killed Optimus Prime, yes?
My memory is a bit fuzzy but I'm pretty sure that this is correct... and that Megatron is NOT a Prime and well...

I'm a little fuzzy on it too...is it "Only a Prime can kill the Fallen"? But is it a special rule just for the Fallen, or is it that he is a Prime, and only a Prime can kill a Prime? In which case, as you said, Megatron killed Optimus.

But then, Optimus calls Megatron his brother in TF1. So if you want to take that literally, Megatron is also a Prime, no? And if he is, why doesn't he just kill the Fallen and be the boss? (Which is what the 'real' Megatron would do. The TF2 Megatron is a simpering little bitch.)

Jetfire was in stasis lock, not dead. How did he get to the museum? I'm not sure, how did all the other planes get there?

They were put there by the museum administrators, naturally. That's why I asked about Jetfire. Did he 'fall asleep' one day on the tarmac and then they came along and put him in the museum? Or did he go there specifically and remove the Blackbird that was already there?

And why didn't they notice an extra jet?? Could be any number of reasons. Why didn't they notice an extra F22 with Starscream?

They should have, but even then it's quite different. There were only ever 32 Blackbirds.

As for his logo, I don't think a small little emboss on his underside is going to make anyone think he isn't a real jet. The few who really looked at it may have wondered about it, but probably felt it was ultimately unimportant.

A museum is generally a place where exhibits are examined in minute detail. Do you think if the Mona Lisa had a Decepticon logo on a pendant around her neck that people might notice?

 

[Kevinicus]

I forgot about the whole "Only a Prime can kill a Prime" rule and yet Megatron killed Optimus Prime, yes?
My memory is a bit fuzzy but I'm pretty sure that this is correct... and that Megatron is NOT a Prime and well...

I guess rules are made to be broken so it's all part of a great movie and adds to the thematic plot, right ChldsPlay?

No, it was only a Prime could kill The Fallen, not only a Prime could kill a Prime.

I'm going to guess that only original Primes, or their descendants are capable of killing other original Primes.
Optimus being a descendant can be killed by anyone.

Or it could be that it's not really a hard rule, but more of the basic belief that only a Prime would stand a chance because of a natural resistance to the abilities of The Fallen.

 

[Kevinicus]

Jetfire was in stasis lock, not dead. How did he get to the museum? I'm not sure, how did all the other planes get there?

They were put there by the museum administrators, naturally. That's why I asked about Jetfire. Did he 'fall asleep' one day on the tarmac and then they came along and put him in the museum? Or did he go there specifically and remove the Blackbird that was already there?

And why didn't they notice an extra jet?? Could be any number of reasons. Why didn't they notice an extra F22 with Starscream?

They should have, but even then it's quite different. There were only ever 32 Blackbirds.

[quote:355q2m1v]As for his logo, I don't think a small little emboss on his underside is going to make anyone think he isn't a real jet. The few who really looked at it may have wondered about it, but probably felt it was ultimately unimportant.

A museum is generally a place where exhibits are examined in minute detail. Do you think if the Mona Lisa had a Decepticon logo on a pendant around her neck that people might notice?

[/quote:355q2m1v]

Where or when he went into stasis I have no idea, though I doubt he would be able to replace one once it was already in the Museum.

32, 187, either way the military is going to know where every single one of these extremely expensive aircraft are at all times.

And I am sure that some people at the Museum noticed it, but what are they going to do about it? They might ask a few questions, but they're not going to say it's not genuine or remove it when everything else about the ship is as it should be. A small logo on the underside of the plane around the landing gear is not going to be any cause for great concern.

 

[Uncanny Antman]

And it's lucky too, that The Fallen's rep is completely undeserved. Not only does Optimus finish him off in two minutes flat, he does it at the same time as handing Megatron and Starscream their asses. :-D

 

[Kevinicus]

And it's lucky too, that The Fallen's rep is completely undeserved. Not only does Optimus finish him off in two minutes flat, he does it at the same time as handing Megatron and Starscream their asses. :-D

And there we have the biggest flaw with the movie outside of the pacing. I cannot argue that. Apparently it was supposed to be a much bigger battle, but they didn't have the time (though why you wouldn't give the Climax more time than other areas I don't know).

 

[JasonN]

"They didn't have the time"?

They evidently thought that we needed to watch 30+ minutes of "Shia the Beef" and "Maxim-Ho" running across the desert, the US miltary being worthless, and Turturro "facing-off" against Devastator... but they couldn't spare more than a minute and a half (yeah, I actually timed it) on OP's battle with both Megatron and the Fallen???

If I didn't know any better... I'd say that Bay really doesn't give a sh*t about the Transformers themselves... :roll:

 

[Kevinicus]

"They didn't have the time"?

They evidently thought that we needed to watch 30+ minutes of "Shia the Beef" and "Maxim-Ho" running across the desert, the US miltary being worthless, and Turturro "facing-off" against Devastator... but they couldn't spare more than a minute and a half (yeah, I actually timed it) on OP's battle with both Megatron and the Fallen???

If I didn't know any better... I'd say that Bay really doesn't give a sh*t about the Transformers themselves... :roll:

You are aware that CG takes time right? They barely got the CG that's in the movie done as it was and were still working on things the day of the premiere. So running through the desert, and the military wouldn't have anything to do with preventing them from getting it done. Now doing all the CG for Devastator I'm sure took quite a bit of time, but that was one of the big draws so you know they weren't going to cut that. The biggest problem was the delay caused by the writer's strike. Though I'd prefer a delayed release than a truncated battle.

 

[JasonN]

You are aware that CG takes time right? They barely got the CG that's in the movie done as it was and were still working on things the day of the premiere. So running through the desert, and the military wouldn't have anything to do with preventing them from getting it done. Now doing all the CG for Devastator I'm sure took quite a bit of time, but that was one of the big draws so you know they weren't going to cut that. The biggest problem was the delay caused by the writer's strike. Though I'd prefer a delayed release than a truncated battle.

I've worked with CG in the past and present and am fully aware of how long it can take to produce. :|

But since you brought it up (for absolutely no reason....), their CG production has nothing to do how poorly thoughtout the climax was or why we had to watch 30-40 minutes of Sam running across a desert to get to OP, yet OP's final battle was less than 2 minutes:

It's called "bad story structure", "terrible screenwriting", and "poor conceptual planning".

 

[Uncanny Antman]

I'd gladly sacrifice Devastator's entire screen-time for a better finale. If only it were possible.

...But then, I'd gladly sacrifice a lot of the movie to make the remaining parts better.

 

[Remixed by Jorge]

ok I'm gonna jump into the fray because you're pretty good at explaining things and maybe you can explain my issues with this movie.
So in TF1m Megatron is called the Iceman because he's been frozen in ice for hundreds of years.
He got frozen chasing after the All-Spark which all the transformers are looking for.
Megatron gets a clue that its dropped on this unknow backwater world know as earth. but as he flies in somehow the gravitational force does something to his doohickie and he crashes and becomes frozen.
here are my questions:
- In TF2 he flies in and out of the planet without nary a struggle, so when did he fix his doohickie?
- If he can fly in and out of orbit why does everyone else arrive via meteor. they did say he was frozen a long time. think time enough for all transformers to get megatron's advance technology.
- why was megatron left frozen for all those years? because apparently not only was earth not "an unknow backwater planet" but the Transformers knew it quite well, had settle here, had marshalled a workforce that had built the pyramids and The Fallen actually lives here within earth's orbit.

I'm sure i just missed something and all will be explained.

You know i just thought of something. why didn't the tranformers join in for either WWI or WWII?
they should do a retro film were the transformers are part of either war.
Imagine the Decepticons wearing Gestapo outfits! Talking with german accents.
"yes captain Optimus, we have vays of making you talk"
The Autobots of course would be Marines!
Go Joe-bots!

Cheers

 

[Kevinicus]

You are aware that CG takes time right? They barely got the CG that's in the movie done as it was and were still working on things the day of the premiere. So running through the desert, and the military wouldn't have anything to do with preventing them from getting it done. Now doing all the CG for Devastator I'm sure took quite a bit of time, but that was one of the big draws so you know they weren't going to cut that. The biggest problem was the delay caused by the writer's strike. Though I'd prefer a delayed release than a truncated battle.

I've worked with CG in the past and present and am fully aware of how long it can take to produce. :|

But since you brought it up (for absolutely no reason....), their CG production has nothing to do how poorly thoughtout the climax was or why we had to watch 30-40 minutes of Sam running across a desert to get to OP, yet OP's final battle was less than 2 minutes:

It's called "bad story structure", "terrible screenwriting", and "poor conceptual planning".

The length of time is precisely why it was short. If they had a much longer "thought out" climax but had to cut it short due to time restraints on the CG, that makes sense. Shooting all the other stuff wouldn't hinder them at all. Working on Devastator however I'm sure did take up a massive amount of their time and I agree with UA that I would have preferred no Devastator at all in exchange for a longer, more epic battle between Prime and The Fallen, but I understand that there was no way Devs was going to get cut because of the massive draw of a huge ass robot.

My problems with the movie are:

1. The Pacing, particularly the last 45-60 min.
2. The rather weak villain in The Fallen.
3. The disappointing and almost completely useless Devastator.
4. The stupid guy the President kept sending to bi*** and moan about the Autobots.
5. Other misc. things - dogs humping, the opening with voice over, devastator balls, Simmons' ass, and some lines here and there ("They're generally amazing...in bed", "We're not cheating...not yet." etc.)