The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power

[DonKamillo]

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"One cannot quench thirst by drinking sea water" I get the metaphor but it seemed a little too absurd and obvious at the same time. It was trying desperately to make a Tolkien-esque metaphor and make a trope-y scene where the hero struggles with sparing the villain (nothing necessarily wrong with that) more unique or interesting, but it made me laugh out loud in a scene that's supposed to be dramatic. I don't know what everyone else thought of it but it'd be one of the first things I'd cut in an edit.

You weren't the only one who was laughing at that. Unfortunately the show is riddled with lines like that, where they try dressing up the weak writing by using fancy words.

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[DonKamillo]

Unfortunately episode 6 didn't manage to change my opinion of the show for the better.

Yes, there are well constructed scenes here and there (one I enjoyed in this episode being how they showed Adar burying the seeds before attacking the tower and Arondir explaining the Elven tradition later on) but they are few and far between.

Yes, the show is stunning at points but the writing, acting and character development make or break a show and for me it's just not there in this one.
Most of the time I do not see well developed characters acting believably in an engaging story but actors playing dress up in their (often) cheap looking costumes.

The pacing is also a disaster IMO. I like my slow burn shows but not if it takes 6 hours (the length of the theatrical cuts of Fellowship and Two Towers) until something interesting happens. At the end of Episode 4 the Numinorians decide to go to Middle Earth. At the end of Episode 5 the Numinorians decide to go to Middle Earth. Then in Episode 6 they suddenly teleport to a hill overlooking the Southlands village. You get my drift.

I don't hate the show. I don't think it's the worst or anything. I'm just disappointed that they practically had the budget of the whole LOTR trilogy for one season and that's what we got out of it...

 

[Masirimso17]

You weren't the only one who was laughing at that. Unfortunately the show is riddled with lines like that, where they try dressing up the weak writing by using fancy words.

True, but I actually really like the boat/rock metaphor because it is the theme of the whole episode and drives Galadriel’s character. The seawater line was just random and forced

The pacing is also a disaster IMO. I like my slow burn shows but not if it takes 6 hours (the length of the theatrical cuts of Fellowship and Two Towers) until something interesting happens. At the end of Episode 4 the Numinorians decide to go to Middle Earth. At the end of Episode 5 the Numinorians decide to go to Middle Earth. Then in Episode 6 they suddenly teleport to a hill overlooking the Southlands village. You get my drift.

I absolutely agree with this though. As much as I really like eps 1, 2 & 6, the entire season is a mess with regards to pacing. I think a good LOTR-movie-length edit would benefit this show greatly.

 

[DigModiFicaTion]

I found Adar's backstory interesting, but the rest of the episode was pretty terrible for me. Laughable acrobatics and telegraphed fighting that was on par with something I'd expect from fox kids power rangers during the 90's, but with excessive amounts of gore. Just not what I'm interested in or in line with the LOTR movies. Sure there was blood and some dismemberments in LOTR, but nothing like this gore show. The costumes continue to look like something from an expensive fan film trying to look and feel like a LOTR film. Also, the fact that the Numenor army shows up at the time that they do is pretty much a Deus Ex Machina moment. The Southlands are wide, and they just happen to find that area and save the people at that critical moment? Are those all of the people of that kingdom? If so, having a King is a bit over the top. And how did they get all of those horses on those tiny boats? Also, that sword was essentially a key to open a dam? Why didn't Adar just break the dam and finish his plan to blow the mountain.......ridiculous plot points, ridiculous narrative, convenient action scenes that kill everyone but never really cause any doubt as to if the main characters will survive. This is turning into the same disaster the Wheel of Time was, except this time I actually had some expectations. Too bad Peter Jackson wasn't part of this production. It would of at least been as bad as the Hobbit. This is so much worse.

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

Pacing issues, long stretches where nothing much consequential to the main story seems to happen, questionable character motivations, characters speaking in semi-poetic idiom to sledgehammer you with the moral of the story, the “cavalry” showing up exactly when needed for dramatic effect/plot advancement…. sounds like Tolkien to me.

 

[DigModiFicaTion]

Pacing issues, long stretches where nothing much consequential to the main story seems to happen, questionable character motivations, characters speaking in semi-poetic idiom to sledgehammer you with the moral of the story, the “cavalry” showing up exactly when needed for dramatic effect/plot advancement…. sounds like Tolkien to me.

Was there ever actual knowledge that said event was happening? In TTT Gandalf knew where they were and went to get the Rohiram. In the Hobbit, he sent the moth to get the Eagles, the Eagles came to the Battle of Five Armies already knowing about it. Gandald went with the eagles to get Frodo and Sam, the dead army was summoned by the king, Bilbo went to the spiders to save the dwarves, Mart and Pippin told the Ents about Isengard......there wasn't always a random saving. This only had the, "we must return the king to the southlands", but every shot of them showed them riding as if they knew exactly where to go and that the people were in peril. It's not terrible, but it was just extremely convenient. The most I tentional thing was the reveal of Adar's plan near the end of the episode. I suppose it's ok. It's just not my bag of storytelling. I am glad that so many are feeling better about the show though. Also, my apologies for potentially butchering Tolkien names in this post

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

Was there ever actual knowledge that said even was happening? In TTT Gandalf knew where they were and went to get the Rohiram. In the Hobbit, he sent the moth to get the Eagles, the Eagles came to the Battle of Five Armies already knowing about it. Gandald went with the eagles to get Frodo and Sam, the dead army was summoned by the king, Bilbo went to the spiders to save the dwarves, Mart and Pippin told the Ents about Isengard......there wasn't always a random saving. This only had the, "we must return the king to the southlands", but every shot of them showed them riding as if they knew exactly where to go and that the people were in peril. It's not terrible, but it was just extremely convenient. The most I tentional thing was the reveal of Adar's plan near the end of the episode. I suppose it's ok. It's just not my bag of storytelling. I am glad that so many are feeling better about the show though. Also, my apologies for potentially butchering Tolkien names in this post

It’s fine if you don’t like it. I don’t think it’s a home run either. I just speculate that there’s something other than the quality of this series fueling the hate. It’s not great, but it’s not bad either. Yet, the level of hate (not necessarily here) is outsized. FWIW, everyone I’ve talked to here in Germany that’s watching it loves it. Way more than I do. And, for the record, I’ve got no issues with your or anyone else’s issues with the show. If it wasn’t clear in my previous post, I just find it funny that so much of criticism I hear is criticism that Tolkien himself faced with his own storytelling.

ETA: I’m just glad I’m hearing actual storytelling criticism here instead of BS black elf and dwarf criticism.

 

[DigModiFicaTion]

The most intriguing thing for me was when Adar explained who he was and made the connection of dark guiding both of them. Galadriel's character had never looked so flawed as in that moment and it really explains the scene where she is tested by the ring in FotR. That was great story telling. For me, there are just too few of these moments in this show. I hear you on the crazy hate this show is getting simply for existing and its cast. It's ridiculous and driven by close mindedness. It looks great for a show, I just hope they improve their narrative and storytelling for season two, if they get that green lit.

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

I’m currently reading the Song of Ice and Fire novels. I read the Wheel of Time novels last year. And, as I alluded to in my previous posts, I think Tolkien (both in prose and adaptation) is the same. This is fantasy storytelling. This series is a leagues better adaptation of Tolkien/fantasy to me than The Hobbit was. Of the currently airing fantasy series I watch it’s still third behind HotD and Andor, but I feel fortunate to have all three to watch weekly.

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

For the penultimate episode of the season, they seem to have taken a deep breath/set the stage approach as opposed to a build the tension approach. I think I would’ve preferred the latter. It’s a fine episode if not my favorite. I do feel I’ve gotten to know the main characters at this point and I care about some more than others. The pacing is still not great and the music still bothers me. But even with this, for me, weaker episode will struggle to see why this show is so reviled. Maybe I’m not a big enough Tolkien fan. I’ve read the main LotR and the Hobbit, but only once. And I’ve not read any of the ancillary stuff or the Simarillion. And, of course, I’ve seen the movies. But I’m not a hardcore Tolkien fan nor a purist. So I watched a couple of YouTube videos laying out the criticism. And it seems to boil down to two things: 1. It should be better given its budget; and 2. It’s too woke. I can’t argue that at times it ls hard to see the budget on screen, but the second issue is just dog whistle to me. I’m looking forward to the season finale.

 

[Wraith]

I’m watching this and as I watch I’m making notes of what parts make me feel MIDDLE EARTHY so to speak.

I think the error, so far having watched only one (now 3) is that it dives into action immediately when we are not invested in the protagonists. This can be fixed.

Fellowship statutes light, after the prologue, and the threat was articulated in flashbacks.

Two Towers and Return of the King were able to launch into action coz the previous movies had established our protagonists and our invested viewing. So the first thing to tackle will be the structure in order to draw in the audience IMHO.

Action, without an invested audience is just that, action.

I’m not saying I’ll be taking this on ( in 11 Months time) but I’m viewing it with a keen eye…

The Durin and Elrond encounter certainly evoked the feel I sought….

We shall see… it’s early days for me so I’ve only skimmed this thread for now to avoid spoilers for myself.

 

[DonKamillo]

And it seems to boil down to two things: 1. It should be better given its budget; and 2. It’s too woke.

I think there were enough valid points of criticism already voiced in this thread:

1. How about there's practically no character development and we're seven hours in. Nearly all the characters in this show are already "finished". Neither personalities, backgrounds, desires or flaws are fully developed. Therefore I can't relate to any of them and don't care what happens to them.
   
   Just ask yourself: Was there any character death in this season, where you got emotional? Any moment at all?
   
   Also the main character (Galadriel) is way too overpowered. The fight against that cave troll is just one example. Her companions were fighting for their lives and then she comes in and kills it without even looking. You can argue the same for Legolas in the LOTR trilogy BUT he was not the main character. It's hard to root for someone when the show makes a point out of showing you over and over again, that they can do whatever they want, with barely any consequences at all.
   
   
2. Saying "It should be better given its budget" is a big oversimplification of a whole lot of problems like cheap costumes that regularly break the immersion, generic music or the CGI which is a hit and miss most of the time.
   
   
3. The writing is just bad for a show of this magnitude. Nothing is earned in this show. Everything just happens because the writers want things to happen that way. There are no difficult situations to get out of or any real consequences, just a sequence of events happening one after the other, which results in a boring story with no stakes.

There are other minor quibbles I have with the show but seeing as it fails to deliver

1. compelling characters, that have you feel and fear for them
2. an immersive and awe inspiring look and feel
3. an exciting story, that continuously leaves you wanting more

I don't think I need to list them.

Yes, there are bigots criticizing the diversity in the show as being too "woke" but let's not pretend that there aren't also a lot of voices (financially or otherwise invested in the success of the show) who are undermining valid criticism by painting all the critics with the same brush.

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

I think it’s perfectly fine to have valid criticism of the show and I’ve made that quite clear in this thread where I feel valid criticism lies, my own included. But the valid criticism isn’t consistent, in my opinion, with the level of criticism that this show has faced. Kenobi, for example, faced some valid criticism, but was largely praised. Except for the inclusion of a single character. Which, IMO, was the single best thing about the show. Terrible action, canon-bending story telling, soft character development, uneven pacing, etc. were all part of Kenobi. But no one cares because Darth Vader. This show, to me, is more enjoyable than that show. Anyone is free to disagree, but the level of hate is absolutely outsized. It’s a fine show. It’s not great and it’s not terrible.

 

[TM2YC]

Let's leave the "woke" talk alone please. If anybody wants to discuss that, the rest of the internet (aka Mordor ) is out there for you all to do so.

I think there were enough valid points of criticism already voiced in this thread:

1. How about there's practically no character development and we're seven hours in. Nearly all the characters in this show are already "finished". Neither personalities, backgrounds, desires or flaws are fully developed. Therefore I can't relate to any of them and don't care what happens to them.

I agree I'm not 100% (or a much lower percentage) on board with some of them but not sure about that stated reason. In this latest episode for example, Galadriel discussed new background info about herself, Durin Jnr and Senior's tempestuous relationship developed, the strength of the friendship with Elrond went deeper, the Harfoots embraced new thinking etc etc.

Also the Queen Regent of the Neumenorians has gone on such a journey. I didn't like or trust her or her motives much at first (which I think was the intention of the writers) but she's turned out to be very different from first impressions.

1. 
   Just ask yourself: Was there any character death in this season, where you got emotional? Any moment at all?

Not that I can think of but it's still early. There are certainly many characters (that we don't already know to survive into LotR) that I would miss.

1. 
   Also the main character (Galadriel) is way too overpowered. The fight against that cave troll is just one example. Her companions were fighting for their lives and then she comes in and kills it without even looking.

You mean like the way Aragorn kills the main orc easily at the end of Fellowship? (naturally because he and she are way more powerful than either foe)

1. Saying "It should be better given its budget" is a big oversimplification of a whole lot of problems like cheap costumes that regularly break the immersion, generic music or the CGI which is a hit and miss most of the time.

Yeah it's patchy. Some of it looks great, some poor. The most expensive epic shot so far in the whole show was the one in this episode with them just standing on top of mountain in New Zealand.


Ep 8 spoiler prediction:

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I predict when Galadriel said she was taking Halbrand away for "Elf healing" or whatever, it's going to be to Eregion, so Halbrand can offer his artisan smithy services to Celebrimbor.

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

Let's leave the "woke" talk alone please. If anybody wants to discuss that, the rest of the internet (aka Mordor ) is out there for you all to do so

Do you mean we can’t address those criticisms? If so, I think that is absolutely a bad policy. There’s clearly a segment of the fantasy fandom that is aggressively combatting any representation in these stories and I don’t think it should be off limits to condemn that.

 

[TM2YC]

Do you mean we can’t address those criticisms? If so, I think that is absolutely a bad policy. There’s clearly a segment of the fantasy fandom that is aggressively combatting any representation in these stories and I don’t think it should be off limits to condemn that.

If you want to condemn it great, or have an intelligent debate about it maybe but when I see loaded terms like "woke" being thrown around, it's not a good place to start. Prove me wrong by all means (no sarcasm intended, genuinely ).

Having started to re-read LotR in recent weeks, it's interesting that Tolkien specifically states on page4 of the prologue that the Harfoots were people of colour, so one could complain that some of the actors in the show playing Harfoots are not but I very much doubt that the hordes on the rest of the internet are raging about that particular detail.

 

[DonKamillo]

I agree I'm not 100% (or a much lower percentage) on board with some of them but not sure about that stated reason. In this latest episode for example, Galadriel discussed new background info about herself,

More like fixed a plot hole the writer had dug for themselves because they had to explain why her husband was not present in the show.

Durin Jnr and Senior's tempestuous relationship developed, the strength of the friendship with Elrond went deeper, the Harfoots embraced new thinking etc etc.

Didn't see a whole lot of development there. Yes Elrond and Durin Jnr have good chemistry together but they were already established as friends in the first episode and not much has changed since then. The Harfoots changing their minds about the stranger was a complete 180 for me, especially the right hand of the Harfoot leader who completely changed her whole demeanor.

Also the Queen Regent of the Neumenorians has gone on such a journey. I didn't like or trust her or her motives much at first (which I think was the intention of the writers) but she's turned out to be very different from first impressions.

She was mean in the beginning, then Galadriel basically bullied her into cooperating with her. A tree lost some leaves and suddenly she was on board for all of it. Character development is not about a person being one way and then being another way but behaving and reacting to events in a believable manner based on developed motivations, fears, etc... We have one episode left and I still don't know anything of substance about her character.

Not that I can think of but it's still early.

You may feel that it's still early because the story moves at such a painstakingly slow pace but we're already seven hours in. Would you say the same about GoT Season 1 or were we already (heavily) emotionally invested in a lot of characters at that point?

You mean like the way Aragorn kills the main orc easily at the end of Fellowship? (naturally because he and she are way more powerful than either foe)

I'll ignore that you're comparing the strength of a cave troll to that of one orc but...

...you tell me, which fight was easy?

 

[TM2YC]

More like fixed a plot hole the writer had dug for themselves because they had to explain why her husband was not present in the show.

I'd just assumed he'd be introduced later on but a dramatic backstory for when they meet again is even better. I'm sure more characters and places will naturally be introduced as we go on.

She was mean in the beginning, then Galadriel basically bullied her into cooperating with her. A tree lost some leaves and suddenly she was on board for all of it.

That's not really true. IIRC didn't Galdriel climb into the tower where she assumed the Elf suspicious Queen regent was imprisoning her father for reasons of usurping his power but Galdriel (and us the audience) realise she's not like that.

You may feel that it's still early because the story moves at such a painstakingly slow pace but we're already seven hours in.

It is too slow.

Would you say the same about GoT Season 1 or were we already (heavily) emotionally invested in a lot of characters at that point?

It's a decade since I saw GoT S1 but they killed off Ned at the end of the first series. RoP might still do something similar. Killing off major characters was kind of GoT thing. Doing something different isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I'll ignore that you're comparing the strength of a cave troll to that of one orc

or comparing the strength of an immortal Elf, to that of a mortal man.

 

[DonKamillo]

or comparing the strength of an immortal Elf, to that of a mortal man.

Immortal and unbeatable is not the same thing...

Anyway, everyone has different tastes and it's definitely not my intention to take away from other people's enjoyment of this show. It just irks me when valid criticism is not recognized, watered down or lumped together with bigoted criticism, that's all.

And then I read "reviews" like these...

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

As stated, there are valid criticisms of this show. I have many. It’s the level of criticism that makes me think there’s more going on. One of the videos I watched called it a failure on the scale of The Room or Batman and Robin. That’s patently absurd. It could definitely be better, but it’s not bad to a conical level. To me, there was more comically bad about Kenobi (another show I enjoyed despite many flaws) than this show. It’s perfectly fine to not enjoy it, but when I see that sort of outsized criticism, it’s hard not to think there isn’t an agenda at play.