The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power

[Moe_Syzlak]

Less of the politics please and I'm sure none of us could possibly guess who you mean anyway but it's a very valid general point. As this sketch points out...

...it's not exactly beyond real world humans to join a side that is obviously and proudly clothed in the icons of evil. Plus, satanic dark evil vs saintly light good is kind of fantasy's bag (and "true neutral" in the middle).

Sorry, couldn’t resist. But seriously, I’m living in Germany and LotR was written while many many good people chose or allowed unspeakable evil to happen. But honestly, I think it’s high fantasy and shades of grey really aren’t the point.

 

[DonKamillo]

I don't really see the $60 million that reportedly went into each episode. Yes there are some money shots (mostly establishing shots of the cities and the first 15 minutes of the first episode) but boy are there some bad green screen effects, especially in episode three.

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The cinematography and CGI in the scene where Isildur saves his mate was terrible.

I'll still watch because it's LOTR but if one constantly keeps checking how many minutes are left in the episode, it's not a good sign. Right now the whole thing feels like an expensive CW show most of the time. I'm just not getting that feeling that I'm in Middle Earth, which even the third Hobbit movie managed to evoke in me.

After Ep3 I'm going to upgrade my earlier 75/80% prediction to 100% .

I wouldn't be so sure...

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There are a couple of shots in the RoP trailer where we see Halbrand fighting against Sauron’s forces alongside Galadriel. But after the revelation that he is of royal blood, I could see him being corrupted by Sauron and eventually becoming one of the Nazgûl.

Regarding the Stranger...

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I'm also pretty sure, that they'll go the "fan service" route and reveal him as Gandalf BUT I noticed that the title of the musical theme, that is playing during his scenes is "Wise One" while listening to the RoP OST on Spotify (the music is also a major letdown btw) and there is another wizard in the LOTR universe, bearing that title...

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[Gibichung]

I'm really loving this show so much. I'm a sucker for slo-mo and melodrama. It's nailing everything I wanted from a LOTR show.

I've watched all the movies and played all the games, but I'm not what you call a Tolkien-head.

I really dig what they're doing with Galadriel because of where we know that character ends up. I appreciate character arcs- it makes the world less static.

As for the stranger:

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I don't think it's Gandalf or any "good" wizard. I think that's a bad guy right there. That's gotta be Sauron. Or a naive proto-Saruman. Because of those dead fireflies. I could be totally off though.

 

[DonKamillo]

As for the stranger:

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I don't think it's Gandalf or any "good" wizard. I think that's a bad guy right there. That's gotta be Sauron. Or a naive proto-Saruman. Because of those dead fireflies. I could be totally off though.

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It's probably going to be Gandalf. Two hints the show already gave:

1. He speaks to insects (in LOTR the moth and here a firefly)
2. The special effects used, when he gets angry are very similar, especially with the shadows growing around him. Just look at the scene from Fellowship where Gandalf frightens Bilbo and you'll know what I mean.

The fact, that he killed the fireflies could have been involuntary because he's got some kind of amnesia and has no full control over his powers yet.

I'm still rooting for the show to be a bit more gutsy, revealing him to be another character entirely, maybe even one of the blue wizards...

 

[TM2YC]

I wouldn't be so sure...

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There are a couple of shots in the RoP trailer where we see Halbrand fighting against Sauron’s forces alongside Galadriel. But after the revelation that he is of royal blood, I could see him being corrupted by Sauron and eventually becoming one of the Nazgûl.

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The Nazgul idea is a good one, perhaps even the Witchking but I'm not dissuaded from my original belief.

After Galadriel drops the "revelation" at the end of Ep3, Halbrand talks about the person she is saying he is (by the medallion) in the third person and then warns Galadriel "I am not the hero you seek." We're supposed to see him like Aragorn, or Bard, a man from an ignoble/noble bloodline who sees himself cursed by the failure of his ancestor, so is a reluctant "hero". I think this is just something to distract us the viewer (and Galadriel) from the moments like when Halbrand looks longingly at the first smithy he passes, uses honeyed words to easily get onside with the Numenorian top brass, then his first priority is to try and join the smithy guild, seemingly contemplating murdering all the guilds people for an instant before quickly switching back to those honeyed words and buying them drinks but ultimately he does brutally kill them all. He seems to be on a mission to learn and/or teach forge craft from/to the Numenorians, then presumably at some point in the show, he's going use that as an introduction and passport to Celebrimbor's favour. From little I know of the LotR backstory, this seems like the MO of "Sauron the deceiver".

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

I know nothing about the appendices and so forth that this show is drawn from, but I’m really enjoying it. Yes, I still have some complaints about the music. And there are some really wonky looking scenes, particularly when on boats, for a show that has such a huge budget. We watched the latest HotD episode followed by the latest RoP episode and I wonder if the brighter tone of RoP makes the compositing or whatever (I’m no expert on such things) more difficult. But to my eyes HotD looks much better. Still, I’m enjoying both shows quite a bit, despite being near opposites in the fantasy genre.

 

[DonKamillo]

The biggest problem for me right now, if we leave aside the music and sfx, is the writing. Right now RoP feels like style over substance combined with lazy exposition dumps. For example that elven guy telling the audience Arondir stuff like "We all know that the love between elves and humans is forbidden, so what you're doing is not a good idea..." while in LOTR we had Aragorn showing us by trying to avoid contact with Arwen, even when it was obvious that they're in love. There's just a serious lack of show-don't-tell in this show.

And regarding the characters in general. After three episodes In HotD we know how the main characters think, what their motivations and fears are etc. They're, all in all, multifaceted characters, while the same cannot be said for RoP. Yes, there are more characters in RoP but right now, they're all pretty one dimensional. The rebel, The naive one, The mysterious one, etc.

The only intriguing thing for me at the moment is guessing who could be a legacy character from LOTR and what this could mean for the series in the long run. There is still potential there to develop into a great series but depending on the answers to who is who and the character development in future episodes, there's also potential for an even greater fall.

 

[asterixsmeagol]

We watched the latest HotD episode followed by the latest RoP episode and I wonder if the brighter tone of RoP makes the compositing or whatever (I’m no expert on such things) more difficult. But to my eyes HotD looks much better. Still, I’m enjoying both shows quite a bit, despite being near opposites in the fantasy genre.

We watch RoP and then HotD last night and made the observation that the things we could see in HotD looked better, but we were also complaining that like GoT, a lot of HotD is just too dark.

 

[asterixsmeagol]

Wait, was the Isildur in this episode meant to be the same Isildur who cuts the One Ring off of Sauron's hand at the end of the Second Age? Isn't that like 2000 years after this series is set?

 

[DonKamillo]

Wait, was the Isildur in this episode meant to be the same Isildur who cuts the One Ring off of Sauron's hand at the end of the Second Age? Isn't that like 2000 years after this series is set?

Isildur is a Númenórean.

Númenóreans were granted especially long lives when compared to that of other Men, with the average lifespan ranging from 350 years to as much as 420.

 

[TM2YC]

Wait, was the Isildur in this episode meant to be the same Isildur who cuts the One Ring off of Sauron's hand at the end of the Second Age? Isn't that like 2000 years after this series is set?

I don't really care about the exact chronology personally, I just wanna see this stuff dramatised. But I looked it up, Isildur was 232 and Elendil was 322 when they defeated Sauron, which was about 120 years after the fall of Numenor. So that is reasonable but the ring was made about 1800 years before, so that means some significant condensing already. I'm totally fine with that, as long as they keep to all the key events, in the right order, with the right people etc.

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

As I said earlier, I know precious little about the events described in the appendices. But I feel like it was pretty well documented that this show would be drastically condensing the material. I am fine with that as well if it makes for a better adaptation. I don’t mean to be constantly comparing the two, but many are complaining about the time jumps in HotD and, if I’m not mistaken, the two young female leads of that show will be replaced by older actresses with the next time jump. It remains to be seen which approach works better. I, or one, am hoping the right choices were made for both and both work well.

 

[seekeroftruth]

I hope someone talented is planning on making a fanfix of the rings of power. I would watch the crap out of that.

 

[Masirimso17]

As per the new rules, you would have to wait at least a year for that. However, we can of course talk about ideas until then--although since it's been only a few episodes and we don't know the full story of even the season yet, I wouldn't know what to change. I've been thoroughly enjoying the series so far. What would you like to change about it?

Spoilers, obviously, but... I did really dislike a moment where at the start of Episode 4, the Numenorians are rioting over Elves coming to "steal their jobs" and then Pharazon becoming a sort of Trump-analogue... That was really cringy, not because of any political reasons but for the fact that the show made this sort of analogy on immigration in America in the first place... in a show based on Tolkien...

As far as I know, Tolkien, unlike C.S. Lewis with his Narnia books, did not intend for anything to be a direct analogy. He constructed his world and the conflicts in it to be similar to real life yet ambiguous enough to be a universal story for everyone about relatable human struggles both individually and socially. This isn't Star Wars or Game of Thrones. So I am worried about what the show is going to turn into regarding things like this.

 

[DigModiFicaTion]

Approach: remove all unnecessary slowo scenes. Remove all needless exposition. Remove extended shots of Galadriel scowling all the time. Remove overt character development scenes. Perhaps I'm just getting old, but so many of these shows now feel formulaic in that they intend to show in your face things that lead to something else later, ala Galadriel's brother whispering in her ear (obviously will be revealed later) or actions a character takes now that won't be revealed why until later. It's too on the nose for my taste. Subtlety that is realized if paying attention is so much more powerful, imho. That's like picking up a Where's Waldo book and Waldo says, "I'm feeling like eating a hotdog today" and the next page is street vendors and a sea of people. It's a no brainer where he's going to be.......

 

[JohnCarlton]

I find it fascinating & honestly quite hilarious that the main character aka Galadriel is literally the worst character in the show. Did they purposely make us hate her so that we would like everyone else or something ? Or is this literally their idea of a main character ?

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

I find it fascinating & honestly quite hilarious that the main character aka Galadriel is literally the worst character in the show. Did they purposely make us hate her so that we would like everyone else or something ? Or is this literally their idea of a main character ?

I guess this is a YMMV, because I find her the most compelling character in the show so far.

 

[Masirimso17]

Approach: remove all unnecessary slowo scenes. Remove all needless exposition. Remove extended shots of Galadriel scowling all the time. Remove overt character development scenes. Perhaps I'm just getting old, but so many of these shows now feel formulaic in that they intend to show in your face things that lead to something else later, ala Galadriel's brother whispering in her ear (obviously will be revealed later) or actions a character takes now that won't be revealed why until later. It's too on the nose for my taste. Subtlety that is realized if paying attention is so much more powerful, imho. That's like picking up a Where's Waldo book and Waldo says, "I'm feeling like eating a hotdog today" and the next page is street vendors and a sea of people. It's a no brainer where he's going to be.......

That’s a very understandable take. I’m asking as an up and coming writer, where would you draw the line between character development being just right and “overt”? I still haven’t nailed the balance between subtlety and clarity, and I worry that what I think is subtle comes across as lacking or vague, or something I think is clear enough is on-the-nose…

I guess it changes from person to person but there has to be a good middle ground right? I know depends on what the writers have put in the script as givens/facts that are clues to an interpretation, but where’s the middle ground between being too obvious and being too vague for you?

Hopefully that’s not too off topic but maybe we can use this show for the examples.

 

[DigModiFicaTion]

That’s a very understandable take. I’m asking as an up and coming writer, where would you draw the line between character development being just right and “overt”? I still haven’t nailed the balance between subtlety and clarity, and I worry that what I think is subtle comes across as lacking or vague, or something I think is clear enough is on-the-nose…

I guess it changes from person to person but there has to be a good middle ground right? I know depends on what the writers have put in the script as givens/facts that are clues to an interpretation, but where’s the middle ground between being too obvious and being too vague for you?

Hopefully that’s not too off topic but maybe we can use this show for the examples.

I suppose I'm more forgiving in some areas. In a Nolan film, I'm looking for it, and I know he's going to show it. It's also usually not something that a character will say or do, but rather something in the environment that is interacted with. In inception, it's the totem. In Tenet it's the backpack. In inception it works perfectly. In Tenet, it was a bit on the nose, but I understand why he did it. It had to be that intentional as the whole movie making some semblance of sense needed that moment to connect for the viewer. Again, that was an environmental thing, not a character line or action of showing/telling the viewer. Harry Potter has tons of nuggets, but they aren't winking at you as you see them. They recall to you when you realize that you saw it in plain sight earlier in the journey. In the Rings of Power, I can't help but think we're essentially watching the Star Wars prequels. We knew Anakin was Vader, we knew Palpatine was the Emperor. Here it's not as on the nose, but it's basically a one off of that if things are going the way most of us think they are with characters. I also can't stand cliff hangers for the sake of cliff hanging. These streaming series all do it and it's annoying as all get out. The formula seems to be, snail pace with tiring exposition, then a bit of action or movement with a dramatic moment that doesn't conclude itself in the hopes that you will come back for the next moment. Those are things that I would take out of the show in an edit, and things I just can't stand in modern storytelling. FOTR told an amazing story without it being a come back for more moment at the end. It wasn't the end of the story, but it at least felt like a conclusion without begging you to return.

 

[Masirimso17]

I suppose I'm more forgiving in some areas. In a Nolan film, I'm looking for it, and I know he's going to show it. It's also usually not something that a character will say or do, but rather something in the environment that is interacted with. In inception, it's the totem. In Tenet it's the backpack. In inception it works perfectly. In Tenet, it was a bit on the nose, but I understand why he did it. It had to be that intentional as the whole movie making some semblance of sense needed that moment to connect for the viewer. Again, that was an environmental thing, not a character line or action of showing/telling the viewer. Harry Potter has tons of nuggets, but they aren't winking at you as you see them. They recall to you when you realize that you saw it in plain sight earlier in the journey. In the Rings of Power, I can't help but think we're essentially watching the Star Wars prequels. We knew Anakin was Vader, we knew Palpatine was the Emperor. Here it's not as on the nose, but it's basically a one off of that if things are going the way most of us think they are with characters. I also can't stand cliff hangers for the sake of cliff hanging. These streaming series all do it and it's annoying as all get out. The formula seems to be, snail pace with tiring exposition, then a bit of action or movement with a dramatic moment that doesn't conclude itself in the hopes that you will come back for the next moment. Those are things that I would take out of the show in an edit, and things I just can't stand in modern storytelling. FOTR told an amazing story without it being a come back for more moment at the end. It wasn't the end of the story, but it at least felt like a conclusion without begging you to return.

I see what you mean, I didn't feel like it's too on the nose in Rings of Power for me personally but I get why you say that.

I will say I like the way they did Galadriel's brother whispering in her ear because it drives her entire struggle in the first episode. Like yeah it's obvious they're gonna reveal it later because they know it would be more powerful to reveal it when she makes her decision, because it's the main thematic question of the episode that gets answered in the most important moment in the episode when Galadriel jumps off the boat, but the important thing is the audience is left wondering the same thing in the context of the events of the plot until Galadriel makes her critical decision. It's a shared journey and I think that's why it works, despite being done in an obvious way.