The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power

[Moe_Syzlak]

Called it after his first two minutes on screen : https://forums.fanedit.org/threads/the-lord-of-the-rings-the-rings-of-power.25708/post-400823

An excellent finale. Like the whole series, not perfect but I enjoyed it a lot and got used to looking forward to every Friday episode. The prospect of going off an adventure to somewhere entirely new with two of the most promising characters sounds like fun... plus they will surely meet two characters virtually unknown to Tolkien lore (IIRC).

I’ve been a pretty staunch—if not defender—supporter of this show. Mostly because I didn’t feel the hate was justified to the level it was coming at this show. I think it was a combination of truly racist sentiments mixed with the bandwagon of increased metrics for hating on it for social media creators. But I never want to dismiss legitimate criticism even if those opinions conflict with mine. Though I’ve had my criticisms of the show, I had hoped against hope it wouldn’t suffer the same fate of so many prequels. Namely, demystifying that which made the original story so intriguing. Many of you probably know more about the prehistory of Middle Earth, but for me learning that (apparently) Gandalf came from space a la Superman and Sauron is just some guy kinda ruins things on the scale of Darth Vader is a lovesick teenaged brat that never grew up. YMMV. So, I guess I held out hope but I am disappointed with the writing in retrospect. Not disappointed enough to write off the show or to quit watching. I mostly enjoyed it and, as far as prequels go, this one is actually not as bad as most.

 

[TM2YC]

I had hoped against hope it wouldn’t suffer the same fate of so many prequels. Namely, demystifying that which made the original story so intriguing. Many of you probably know more about the prehistory of Middle Earth

My knowledge of anything outside of the main LotR/Hobbit narrative is vague (I only just realised what the "middle" bit of middle earth refers to) but I've learned a few things from reading up on some of the characters/places/events from this show.

but for me learning that (apparently) Gandalf came from space a la Superman and Sauron is just some guy kinda ruins things on the scale of Darth Vader is a lovesick teenaged brat that never grew up. YMMV.

I sort of get the Gandalf demystifying bit, as in seeing it literally depicted. Although I loved every minute of it. If I ever imagined it all, this was how I'd have imagined it. I always knew he was some sort of angelic servant of the middle earth gods, far more powerful than he appears but I didn't have the full picture like in the show. Just re-read the first chapter of LotR and it describes the bit where Gandalf gets angry with Bilbo for trying to keep the ring:

"He took a step towards the hobbit, and he seemed to grow tall and menacing; his shadow filled the little room"

Then after he's calmed down:

"He turned away, and the shadow passed. He seemed to dwindle again to and old grey man, bent and troubled".

I think "old grey man, bent and troubled" is how Gandalf likes to appear, being more humble than he could be, unlike Saruman. Similarly I think Sauron can appear as somebody pleasing/friendly/benevolent like Halbrand, in order to deceive but IIRC at some time after the events shown in this episode he becomes so evil and corrupted that he forever loses the ability to appear in any other form than the hellish dark lord. Something like that, as I say I'm pretty vague on it. So this Sauron isn't "just some guy", he's just chosen to appear as "some guy" to suit his purposes, he'll become the unknowable dark lord vague spirit of evil at some point in the show I imagine. Plus doesn't eventually losing the ring to Isildur, mean Sauron can't even take corporeal form any more.

If Sauron can be seen as analogous to Satan and Gandalf is his opposite, I like that they are playing up the Moses/Jesus/Superman imagery in the way that he is sent to (middle) earth. The Harfoots being the equivalent of the down-to-earth upbringing Superman gets from a folksy farm in Kansas. Kneel before Zod/Sauron/Pharoah/Satan .


In short, I think there is still plenty of mystery for me.

 

[TM2YC]

I’ve been a pretty staunch—if not defender—supporter of this show. Mostly because I didn’t feel the hate was justified to the level it was coming at this show. I think it was a combination of truly racist sentiments mixed with the bandwagon of increased metrics for hating on it for social media creators. But I never want to dismiss legitimate criticism even if those opinions conflict with mine.

If I'm right in my assumption that Gandalf(?) and Nori are going to journey to Rhun to meet the legendary two "Blue wizards" (2 of the 5 wizards, three of which we've met), which Tolkien never described anything about, other than their existence in the east at some stage in the pre-history, not even definitively deciding what their names were...

...then since the other three wizards are already established to be old white guys (if RoP sticks to PJ's LotR) then it would only be natural to make the blue wizards female and/or young and/or non-white for verity/inclusion etc. Why not. So at that point, it's going to be pretty easy to spot who are the racist/sexist critics and who are the genuine hardcore Tolkien nerds who only want everything to be 100% "accurate", given that there is no basis for any level of accuracy, or inaccuracy for these two characters.

 

[Masirimso17]

Last episode was by far the best among Wayne Che Yip's episodes. That was quite good, very satisfying. I'm interested to see where Galadriel's story goes from here, who is by far the most interesting character in the show for me.

Overall this episode was kind of a microcosm of how I felt about the whole seasons. Some high heights, some low lows, but an overall solid return to Middle Earth. I'm very pleased.

Reveal message

And that new credits song. OH MY GOD IT'S SO GOOD I CAN'T GET ENOUGH OF IT

 

[DonKamillo]

 

[DonkeyKonga]

This show apart from not following the lore to please die hard fans, they don't seem to even follow the basic rules of storytelling to please avarage viewers. Although I absolutely do not like, I wonder if a faneditor can make it work. I think alot of fanedits will make certain events feel like 'visions'.

 

[asterixsmeagol]

learning that (apparently) Gandalf came from space a la Superman and Sauron is just some guy kinda ruins things on the scale of Darth Vader is a lovesick teenaged brat that never grew up.

The issue with those two revelations are that neither of them are correct. Both Gandalf and Sauron are Maiar.

Reveal message: Middle-Earth history

In the Tolkien pantheon, there is a creator god Eru Ilúvatar, who created the universe, including Arda (the world) and the Ainur (god-like beings). They are divided into Valar (major gods) and Maiar (minor gods). Fourteen Valar are essentially the good guys, and then there's Melkor/Morgoth who is the bad guy they talked about early in the show who has been defeated. Some Ainur still live in the heavens with Eru, and some live in Valinor. Sauron at one point was one of the Maiar in Valinor, who left to support Morgoth in his war against the other Valar. The Wizards (Gandalf, Saruman, Radagast, and the two unnamed Blue Wizards) were five of the heaven-dwelling Maiar who were sent to Arda to fight against the Sauron, but not until well into the Third Age, thousands of years after the forging of the Rings.

 

[DonkeyKonga]

To be honest him crashing down from the heavens makes sort of sense as a Maiar. They cant fly. It's just everything else surrounding him that doesn't work. Sauron also being SO OBVIOUSLY sauron didnt help lol.

My knowledge of anything outside of the main LotR/Hobbit narrative is vague (I only just realised what the "middle" bit of middle earth refers to) but I've learned a few things from reading up on some of the characters/places/events from this show.



I sort of get the Gandalf demystifying bit, as in seeing it literally depicted. Although I loved every minute of it. If I ever imagined it all, this was how I'd have imagined it. I always knew he was some sort of angelic servant of the middle earth gods, far more powerful than he appears but I didn't have the full picture like in the show. Just re-read the first chapter of LotR and it describes the bit where Gandalf gets angry with Bilbo for trying to keep the ring:

"He took a step towards the hobbit, and he seemed to grow tall and menacing; his shadow filled the little room"

Then after he's calmed down:

"He turned away, and the shadow passed. He seemed to dwindle again to and old grey man, bent and troubled".

I think "old grey man, bent and troubled" is how Gandalf likes to appear, being more humble than he could be, unlike Saruman. Similarly I think Sauron can appear as somebody pleasing/friendly/benevolent like Halbrand, in order to deceive but IIRC at some time after the events shown in this episode he becomes so evil and corrupted that he forever loses the ability to appear in any other form than the hellish dark lord. Something like that, as I say I'm pretty vague on it. So this Sauron isn't "just some guy", he's just chosen to appear as "some guy" to suit his purposes, he'll become the unknowable dark lord vague spirit of evil at some point in the show I imagine. Plus doesn't eventually losing the ring to Isildur, mean Sauron can't even take corporeal form any more.

If Sauron can be seen as analogous to Satan and Gandalf is his opposite, I like that they are playing up the Moses/Jesus/Superman imagery in the way that he is sent to (middle) earth. The Harfoots being the equivalent of the down-to-earth upbringing Superman gets from a folksy farm in Kansas. Kneel before Zod/Sauron/Pharoah/Satan .


In short, I think there is still plenty of mystery for me.

Peter Jacksons rendition of this scene is litterally perfection.

 

[seekeroftruth]

I think McCreary's score is fantastic, and that it would be wrong to take the undoubtably amazing score from the Lotr Trilogy and put it in this series.

 

[Gibichung]

I think McCreary's score is fantastic, and that it would be wrong to take the undoubtably amazing score from the Lotr Trilogy and put it in this series.

In my opinion it got a tad bit repetitive, especially in the finale episode. I was almost rolling my eyes at the motif everytime it came on. It came on like 10 times, I swear.

 

[LOGIC_INC]

McCreary is my guy! Did an awesome job on one of my other fav shows... Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles.

 

[Gieferg]

...and Black Sails, and Outlander... His music quite often clicks with me, so I use it in my mountain hiking videos.

 

[LOGIC_INC]

...and Black Sails, and Outlander... His music quite often clicks with me, so I use it in my mountain hiking videos.

YES! Black Sails too!

 

[DonKamillo]

Food for thought...

Reveal message

Things that happened TO Sauron, meaning he couldn't have planned or had control over those events:

1. Getting shipwrecked...
2. ...trapped on a raft...
3. and almost eaten by a sea worm (twice)
4. Meeting Galadriel in the middle of the ocean
5. Getting rescued by the Numenoreans (more precisely the father of the guy who much later would take his ring)
6. Galadriel refusind to believe that he stole that symbol from a dead man, as he told her numerous times
7. Galadriel insisting that he was a king, while he told her he wasn't
8. Getting imprisoned
9. Galadriel somehow convincing the Numenorians to send ships to Middle-Earth
10. Getting caught in the eruption of Mount Doom
11. Stabbed by an Orc...
12. ...resulting in an infected gut wound
13. Galadriel taking him to Eregion (basically the strong hold of his worst enemies)
14. Getting cared for by the best Elven healers, who somehow don't sense he's Maiar (= a semi-divine supernatural being)
15. Celebrimbor letting him assist in a project he couldn't have had any knowledge of prior

Sauron didn't lie to Galadriel. He didn't kill her when he had the chance (twice). He even gave Galadriel her brother's dagger back after it was taken from her (twice). He gave Celebrimbor the solution to allowing his "enemies" to be saved.

I thought Sauron was supposed to be manipulative, cunning, seductive, deceitful and all that evil stuff.

Or maybe he just wanted to escape his former evil life and be good for a change. He wanted out, until a certain Elf pulled him back in...

Conclusion: Is the show setting Sauron up to be the ultimate anti hero in Season 2 or am I missing something?

 

[TM2YC]

My spoiler response to your thoughts @DonKamillo :

Reveal message

Food for thought...

Things that happened TO Sauron, meaning he couldn't have planned or had control over those events:

I'd realised he was Sauron from the first instant, so I've really enjoyed seeing how the writers have both dropped hints about the truth, had him saying lines with double meanings all the time and portrayed him manipulating people, without trying to tip their hands to obviously to the audience. It's quite the tightrope they've walked. So I've viewed his every action from that perspective.

[*]Getting shipwrecked...
[*]...trapped on a raft...
[*]and almost eaten by a sea worm (twice)
[*]Meeting Galadriel in the middle of the ocean

I assumed from the first appearance that the sea monster was some evil creature in his power and he was never really one of the passengers to begin with. He might've joined them in the confusion after the first attack on the ship.

(Much like what happens with the similarly named Dr. Tolian Soran in 'Star Trek Generations', when he appears aboard the Enterprise-B with the rest of the real survivors from the "shipwrecked" Lakul.)

He quickly separated himself from the others on the raft, so the others could be killed by it but not him. The instant they're all dead and it's just him and Galadriel, the creature magically disappears and never comes back.

[*]Getting rescued by the Numenoreans (more precisely the father of the guy who much later would take his ring)

He encourages Galadriel to go to sail in the direction of Numenor doesn't he? Then presumably summons the summoned the sudden titanic storm to blow them there. Again the instant the storm disappears, they are in Numenor waters.

[*]Galadriel refused to believe that he stole that symbol from a dead man, as he told her numerous times
[*]Galadriel insisting that he was a king, while he told her he wasn't

Those fall into the category of tricking her to believe those things. She assumes he's lying about those things because he's afraid of his destiny, he cleverly allows her to believe this, by ironically telling her the truth. The more he told her the truth, the more she believed her own wrong assumptions. I thought it was great writing.

[*]Getting imprisoned

Surely that was a direct result of him trying to join the smithy guild (for ring smithing purposes) but having to brutally murder the guild members, when they attack him, for which he is caught.

[*]Galadriel somehow convincing the Numenorians to send ships to Middle-Earth

I'm a bit hazy on this one without a rewatch but him tricking Galadriel into thinking he was the king of the southlands was in part behind her argument to go there. The Numenorians only take note of him because he's let Galadriel think believe he is worth taking note of.

[*]Getting caught in the eruption of Mount Doom
[*]Stabbed by an Orc...
[*]...resulting in an infected gut wound

Didn't that happen off screen and so is dubious if it was true.

[*]Galadriel taking him to Eregion (basically the strong hold of his worst enemies)
[*]Getting cared for by the best Elven healers, who somehow don't sense he's Maiar (= a semi-divine supernatural being)

I'd imagined the wound was a ruse to get taken there. In the books I believe Sauron is amongst the Elves for centuries (I think?) and they don't suspect. I think he have to accept that he can conceal his true nature.

[*]Celebrimbor letting him assist in a project he couldn't have had any knowledge of prior

Like in LotR, he has spies everywhere. It's not difficult to imagine he'd be aware of it. Having said that, there are a few points in the series where we see him react to events and change tack.

Sauron didn't lie to Galadriel. He didn't kill her when he had the chance (twice). He even gave Galadriel her brother's dagger back after it was taken from her (twice). He gave Celebrimbor the solution to allowing his "enemies" to be saved.

The first part is because she was used by him to manipulate events. It's a key bit of LotR lore that Sauron wanted the Elves and co to have rings, so he could rule over them with his one ring. It says something like when the Elves realised they'd been deceived, they hid the three rings and didn't use them.

I thought Sauron was supposed to be manipulative, cunning, seductive, deceitful and all that evil stuff.

He very much was for me.

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

My spoiler response to your thoughts @DonKamillo :

Reveal message

I'd realised he was Sauron from the first instant, so I've really enjoyed seeing how the writers have both dropped hints about the truth, had him saying lines with double meanings all the time and portrayed him manipulating people, without trying to tip their hands to obviously to the audience. It's quite the tightrope they've walked. So I've viewed his every action from that perspective.



I assumed from the first appearance that the sea monster was some evil creature in his power and he was never really one of the passengers to begin with. He might've joined them in the confusion after the first attack on the ship.

(Much like what happens with the similarly named Dr. Tolian Soran in 'Star Trek Generations', when he appears aboard the Enterprise-B with the rest of the real survivors from the "shipwrecked" Lakul.)

He quickly separated himself from the others on the raft, so the others could be killed by it but not him. The instant they're all dead and it's just him and Galadriel, the creature magically disappears and never comes back.



He encourages Galadriel to go to sail in the direction of Numenor doesn't he? Then presumably summons the summoned the sudden titanic storm to blow them there. Again the instant the storm disappears, they are in Numenor waters.



Those fall into the category of tricking her to believe those things. She assumes he's lying about those things because he's afraid of his destiny, he cleverly allows her to believe this, by ironically telling her the truth. The more he told her the truth, the more she believed her own wrong assumptions. I thought it was great writing.



Surely that was a direct result of him trying to join the smithy guild (for ring smithing purposes) but having to brutally murder the guild members, when they attack him, for which he is caught.



I'm a bit hazy on this one without a rewatch but him tricking Galadriel into thinking he was the king of the southlands was in part behind her argument to go there. The Numenorians only take note of him because he's let Galadriel think believe he is worth taking note of.



Didn't that happen off screen and so is dubious if it was true.



I'd imagined the wound was a ruse to get taken there. In the books I believe Sauron is amongst the Elves for centuries (I think?) and they don't suspect. I think he have to accept that he can conceal his true nature.



Like in LotR, he has spies everywhere. It's not difficult to imagine he'd be aware of it. Having said that, there are a few points in the series where we see him react to events and change tack.



The first part is because she was used by him to manipulate events. It's a key bit of LotR lore that Sauron wanted the Elves and co to have rings, so he could rule over them with his one ring. It says something like when the Elves realised they'd been deceived, they hid the three rings and didn't use them.



He very much was for me.

My annoyance wasn’t with any of that. It was more the attempt to fool the audience. The first scene of the finale trying to pull the rug out with a see, we tricked you the one you thought was Gandalf is actually Sauron only to later be no, we tricked you again bothered me. Not because of the mystery but because I thought it poorly executed. The show seemed to walk a knife’s edge where it expects you to have some knowledge of Tolkien lore but not too much. Both the films and the show set up Sauron as this huge imposing figure, never giving any indication that it’s, what, not his true form or that he can assume other forms? Maybe those with a deep knowledge of Tolkien lore know this. I did not and found it annoying that Sauron would be “just some guy.” I think at least the Sauron part, if not the Gandalf, would’ve been better served if the audience was in on it from the beginning or if they had at least provided more information about Sauron for those of us that haven’t read about it. But maybe they did and I missed it. And maybe I’d find the whole Sauron piece more compelling on rewatch. Unfortunately, while I enjoyed the show, I didn’t like it so much that I’d consider rewatching anytime soon.

 

[DonKamillo]

I'd realised he was Sauron from the first instant, so I've really enjoyed seeing how the writers have both dropped hints about the truth, had him saying lines with double meanings all the time and portrayed him manipulating people, without trying to tip their hands to obviously to the audience. It's quite the tightrope they've walked. So I've viewed his every action from that perspective.

You made some good points, even though most of it was essentially: "He is the almighty Sauron, so of course he planned that!"

I am curious about something else though. How would you explain the last scene of Episode 5 where we see Sauron sitting there, staring at the token, he took from a dead man and pondering what to do? He is then called upon by the Queen Regent, puts the token on the table and walks out, just to snatch it up again.

For the unknowing, it was supposed to show, that Halbrand was thinking of his talk with Galadriel and about accepting his responsibilities as king of the Southlands. He seems to decide against it, just to change his mind in the last second. It was played as a triumphant scene. Galadriel was successful in convincing him to "do the right thing"...

But in hindsight that scene doesn't make any sense to me. If he was Sauron all along why the theatrics? There was nobody there to manipulate or deceive. He was alone. Was that supposed to be a meta-fourth-wall-break-manipulation of the audience or what were the writers thinking there?

 

[Revan100]

Was that supposed to be a meta-fourth-wall-break-manipulation of the audience?

I'm pretty sure that was the case.

 

[TM2YC]

You made some good points, even though most of it was essentially: "He is the almighty Sauron, so of course he planned that!"

I am curious about something else though. How would you explain the last scene of Episode 5 where we see Sauron sitting there, staring at the token, he took from a dead man and pondering what to do? He is then called upon by the Queen Regent, puts the token on the table and walks out, just to snatch it up again.

For the unknowing, it was supposed to show, that Halbrand was thinking of his talk with Galadriel and about accepting his responsibilities as king of the Southlands. He seems to decide against it, just to change his mind in the last second. It was played as a triumphant scene. Galadriel was successful in convincing him to "do the right thing"...

But in hindsight that scene doesn't make any sense to me. If he was Sauron all along why the theatrics? There was nobody there to manipulate or deceive. He was alone. Was that supposed to be a meta-fourth-wall-break-manipulation of the audience or what were the writers thinking there?

I'll give the show some leeway in moments like that for, as I said earlier, walking a tightrope of not making it too obvious and still having it there, plus also having a third aspect of is he, isn't he to keep people guessing. @Moe_Syzlak made a very good point about if it would've been wiser to have the audience know from the beginning and to allow everyone to enjoy watching how the machinations unfolded. That's sort of how I enjoyed watching it anyway. Then they wouldn't have had to worry about walking that tightrope. There are shows and films with secret bad guys we love to hate and love being in on their plots, that have worked very well. e.g.

 

[DonKamillo]

I'll give the show some leeway in moments like that for, as I said earlier, walking a tightrope of not making it too obvious and still having it there, plus also having a third aspect of is he, isn't he to keep people guessing. @Moe_Syzlak made a very good point about if it would've been wiser to have the audience know from the beginning and to allow everyone to enjoy watching how the machinations unfolded. That's sort of how I enjoyed watching it anyway. Then they wouldn't have had to worry about walking that tightrope. There are shows and films with secret bad guys we love to hate and love being in on their plots, that have worked very well. e.g.

I get what you're saying but it was still their call to set everything up as a twist with hints along the way, so they should've looked at everything from both sides. One of the main reasons for writing it that way is, that when you go back after you have all the information and rewatch the Season, you'll have a different, probably even more enjoyable experience.

It makes planning and writing the story much more challenging but when done right you create something special (like The Sixth Sense for example). To achieve that you have to make every red herring and every hint work both ways and this is just not the case here (not only with that particular scene but others as well).

Anyway, I read that Season 2 will be very Sauron centric, so I'm curious how/if they'll explain his actions in Season 1...