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The Brothers Grimm: The Fairytale Workprint by TM2YC

grimint4.jpg


Edit rendered, released, uploaded, finished, posted etc etc :). It's already available from the usual place, as an SD-MP4 and NTSC-DVD-5.

I hope you all enjoy 'The Fairytale Workprint'. It's been a hard road getting this thing finished but I think it really does work now. The wonderfully maniacal Cavaldi was already my favourite character but now in this 'Extended Edition', I think his character arc now makes much more sense. So you're now not just laughing at him but feeling for him too.

This is a film I've longed to see recut/extended, right from when I got the DVD almost a decade ago. Now thanks to the modern magic of fanediting I can :).

I hope you all enjoy it to!

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Did you crop the borders when making the HD version? I take it you tried x264's slower presets. Of course, it's better to use CRF encoding if the result does not need to fit on a disc. May I ask what you consider a reasonable file-size and why? :) I might be able to help.
 
Captain Khajiit said:
Did you crop the borders when making the HD version? I take it you tried x264's slower presets. Of course, it's better to use CRF encoding if the result does not need to fit on a disc. May I ask what you consider a reasonable file-size and why? :) I might be able to help.

I aim to keep my 1280x720 mp4s to around 4-5GB and at that level (Or anything near it) Brothers Grimm didn't look like I wanted (It looked good for the most part though). I'm using handbrake btw. But at a lower res I could keep the filesize under that and all the grain and texture looked the way I wanted plus the quality drop going into the deleted material wasn't so noticeable.

And as for the DVD, I trimmed a few pixels above and below the image to give an image at the right ratio without recourse to pillarboxing (Squashing it a little seemed the other option, which I was not keen on).
 
According to Blu-ray.com, Brothers Grimm is 1.85:1. While the gains from cropping the borders are not as great as they would be for a scope movie, you should be able to crop the image a bit to improve quality and still maintain aspect ratio (because you'd encode with an SAR of 1:1) If you send me an unresized screenshot of a frame from your edit in which the borders are clearly visible, I'll have a look, and we'll see if we can modify the AviSynth script with which I assume you are feeding HandBrake. (I'll probably be able to suggest something for the DVD too.)

I'm not a HandBrake user, but judging by the website, it presents x264's presets as options. In which case, I recommend you try the appropriately-named veryslow preset (if you haven't already and if you can tolerate the speed) with a CRF of 20 (to start) and see how it comes out. (I can show you a command-line too if you'd like.)
 
Captain Khajiit said:
According to Blu-ray.com, Brothers Grimm is 1.85:1. While the gains from cropping the borders are not as great as they would be for a scope movie, you should be able to crop the image a bit to improve quality and still maintain aspect ratio (because you'd encode with an SAR of 1:1) If you send me an unresized screenshot of a frame from your edit in which the borders are clearly visible, I'll have a look, and we'll see if we can modify the AviSynth script with which I assume you are feeding HandBrake. (I'll probably be able to suggest something for the DVD too.)

I'm not a fan of script based editing (It's full user interface or nothing with me ;-)) although I'm well aware that you are the AviSynth script Genius round these parts if I ever change my mind.

Will PM you a screenshot.

Captain Khajiit said:
I'm not a HandBrake user, but judging by the website, it presents x264's presets as options. In which case, I recommend you try the appropriately-named veryslow preset (if you haven't already and if you can tolerate the speed) with a CRF of 20 (to start) and see how it comes out. (I can show you a command-line too if you'd like.)

Those are the exact settings I've tried and weren't satisfied with (Among many others I trialed). I think I went with CRF 15 for the finished render.
 
TM2YC said:
Those are the exact settings I've tried and weren't satisfied with (Among many others I trialed). I think I went with CRF 15 for the finished render.

Ah, I see. It seems that you have a good understanding of the relevant options, but your source is particularly difficult to compress. As long as you are setting tune to film (rather than grain) and using a soft resizer such as BilinearResize() and no sharpening, which you almost certainly are, I'm unlikely to be of any help.

Re: AviSynth

Alas! I'm little more than a basic-level user and abuser of other people's functions and plugins.
 
Congrats on finishing. While I am not a fan of the original, I am blown away by the incredible work you have put into this project. Your posted screen caps and clips have been jaw dropping amazing! And your dvd front cover art is gorgeous! You are an inspiration buddy! :)
 
bionicbob said:
Congrats on finishing. While I am not a fan of the original, I am blown away by the incredible work you have put into this project. Your posted screen caps and clips have been jaw dropping amazing! And your dvd front cover art is gorgeous! You are an inspiration buddy! :)

Thanks!
 
I'm not sure, if this was mentioned here, but Terry Gilliam is one of the few directors with a positive attitude towards fanediting. I remember reading an interview (and I think it was about Brothers Grimm), where he mentioned that he puts the deleted scenes on the discs for people to make their own cut. But if they do, he wants a copy. So, here is your chance to contact Terry Gilliam. :)
 
boon23 said:
I'm not sure, if this was mentioned here, but Terry Gilliam is one of the few directors with a positive attitude towards fanediting. I remember reading an interview (and I think it was about Brothers Grimm), where he mentioned that he puts the deleted scenes on the discs for people to make their own cut. But if they do, he wants a copy. So, here is your chance to contact Terry Gilliam. :)

I quoted some of his comments in the first post...

TM2YC said:
Terry says on the deleted scenes commentary:
"You can probably take this and cut it back into the movie and see what you think. That's the joy of DVDs... you can make the movie the way you want it!"

...but I hadn't heard him say he wanted copies, cool :).
 
Firstly,Congrats on the completion of this Fanedit.....:thumb:

Just as a matter of interest (sort of) i was looking up 'The Brother's Grimm' on IMDB and read within the trivia section that Steven Soderbergh had done his own cut of this movie and whilst these IMDB trivia facts are not set in stone I just kinda found it interesting given your work on 'Heavens Gate The Butcher's Cut'......Cheers :)
 
sgp1428 said:
Firstly,Congrats on the completion of this Fanedit.....:thumb:

Just as a matter of interest (sort of) i was looking up 'The Brother's Grimm' on IMDB and read within the trivia section that Steven Soderbergh had done his own cut of this movie and whilst these IMDB trivia facts are not set in stone I just kinda found it interesting given your work on 'Heavens Gate The Butcher's Cut'......Cheers :)

Really? :?

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I just need to recut Psychos in HD and I've got the hat-trick.
 
Yay somebody watched and reviewed this at last! :lol: Thanks plurmonger for the review...

This was a valiant attempt to salvage what is considered by many (including myself) to be a major disappointment from Terry Gilliam's filmography. I like a lot of things about the movie, first and foremost the cast, but it never feels like it gels into something that truly works. Unfortunately, even after all of the work that TM2YC put into fixing the film, I still feel the same way. It's just not as much fun as it should be. I was rather generous with my "enjoyment" rating, however, as this edit does not at all deserve to end up with a low overall rating.

The amount of work put into this was staggering! Considering the generally poor quality of the available deleted scenes (most of them unfinished), they look and sound great cradled into the existing film. The editor built sound beds, fixed color timing, finished VFX, and cut these new scenes seamlessly into what was already there, and it's nearly perfect. Short of actual magical intervention, these scenes will never be fully on par with what the studio finished, but fear not, they're far from experience-ruining. They were also placed in logical spots, so as not to disrupt the flow of the narrative. This was both a blessing and a curse....on the one hand, they're mostly a lot of fun and dial the quirkiness up a notch (always a benefit when discussing Gilliam), but they also made this (IMO) already-dragging film into an even longer one.

I would say that, if you liked the original film, there's no reason you shouldn't enjoy this version even more. But if, like me, you don't remember The Brothers Grimm fondly, this edit isn't going to change that. Either way, it's an impressive edit made even more mind-boggling when you actually see what went into bringing it to us. And how awesome is that cover?!

I'm really glad that it sounds like I achieved my goal of integrating the footage seemlessly, even if it didn't improve the film for you (Or made it worse :oops:).

FYI: The artwork (Front and back) is based on Production Designer Guy Dyas' concept art. I think the film captured it perfectly...

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You can view a few of his sketches here...

http://www.smart.co.uk/dreams/grimguyd.htm
 
No problem, sorry it took me so long to finally get it done! And I'm with you on the production design. They nailed it.

Anyway, keep up the good work.
 
Thanks for the review [MENTION=9578]Neglify[/MENTION]...

I've only seen "The Brothers Grimm" once before, a year or so after it was released. I barely remember it and I'm pretty sure I fell asleep off-and-on throughout. This is definitely a fanedit for those who are fans of the film, as it's still a snoozefest for me.

BUT, in terms of fanediting skill, this was excellent. Aside from the quality of the deleted scenes, you'd never be able to tell anything was different than the theatrical film. TM2YC's editing is invisible and the amount of work put into this is commendable.

For me though, this remains one of Gilliam's biggest misfires.

Oh well, another review that at least is full of praise for the technical efforts... even if the edit itself is boring :-D. This is a true "extended-edition" I think e.g. It adds more of whatever you saw in the original. So if you think The Brothers Grimm is Gilliam's masterpiece, then this fanedit may be for you! (I realise there is nobody in this subset of movie fans).

Thanks for taking the time to review it.
 
I was 15-years-old when "The Brothers Grimm" was originally released, and a hardcore Gilliam fan. At the time, I wasn't disappointed. While the plot was a bit of mess and the central characters mostly cliches, Gilliam's dark imagery and visual comedy were what really made it pop. Remember that this movie preceded Pan's Labyrinth and other, emotionally stronger entries in the fantasy renaissance that didn't really kick off until the late '00s.

When I had some friends over and popped in my DVD again to watch this for the first time in years, it sadly did not hold up as well as I had hoped. With so many more fairytale-inspired films on my shelf today, the general confusion and bad characterizations felt a bit less forgivable. I still throughly enjoyed much of the visual style and comedy — particularly in the many wonderful scenes in which children are captured by dark, magical creatures. My read was that this was a case of a great director stymied by an overbearing studio and a weak script.

So last night I stumbled upon TM2YC's edit, and was intrigued by an effort to create a cut of this film more faithful to Gilliam's original vision. Not only are the deleted scenes that TM2YC has reincorporated expertly polished, but many of them actually strengthen the narrative and characterizations to the point where I would be happy to recommend this movie to Gilliam fans without a tremendous amount of equivocation. Some specific thoughts on the additions and changes:

1. Yes, the Red Riding Hood scene belongs at the beginning. it's just a much more powerful opener. Without the introduction of the Grimm brothers as adults, the audience has no reason to care about the "fake magic bean" story. It just feels like a magic-less bummer, which is just exactly the wrong way to start a movie the promises to be a fairytale. With Red Riding Hood, we get a visually interesting take on an old standard — no justification needed, and from that point on the audience knows exactly what sort of movie they are watching.

By putting the "magic beans" sequence later as a flashback, it does a much better job of characterizing the differences between Will and Jacob. We know from the scene in the barn that Jacob is not entirely happy with the trickery he and his brother just executed on the townsfolk, and the beans flashback explains why. This establishes a dramatic conflict between the two leads that we can then follow until it reaches a climax by movie's end. 

2. The additional moments with Cavaldi are nearly all essential. In the original cut, Cavaldi was perhaps the most baffling character. The entire film built him up to be a sinister torturer with no regard for human life, only for him to turn and choose not to shoot the Grimm brothers during the climax. Why would someone who had no problem torturing innocents suddenly becomes squeamish when asked to shoot enemies of the state? From that point on, the audience was simply asked to regard this scoundrel as one of the film's gang of protagonists. What? While Peter Stormare's performance was wonderfully hammy, the character just didn't make any sense.

Now, it's much more clear — in "The Chef Gets Chopped" scene, we discover that Captain Delatombe suspects Cavaldi of being a con artist (just like the Grimm's!) who is in fact, too squeamish to maim and murder. His elaborate machines are meant to be over the top — they're just bits of theatrics! Just this short scene makes Cavaldi's turn after Delatombe's death much more sensible. With Delatombe alive, he had to appear to be the Grimm's enemy in order to prevent his own execution. Once Delatombe is gone, Cavaldi no longer needs to maintain the ruse.

3. In the original cut, the audience is given virtually no reason to root for Will until the very end, at which point his affection for Jacob and Angelica seems to come from nowhere. This is why the "Will to the Rescue" is also essential. This ends the second act, and it is the first time we see Will risking his own safety in order to save another's life. From then on, despite his gruffness, we know he really is a man with a good heart.

4. The original cut sorely misses the moment when Angelica thanks Jacob for aiding their escape from Delatombe. Without it, the audience has no evidence that she has any affection for the brothers, or Jacob in particular. Will's rescue attempt and her acknowledgement of Jacob's aid means that the following scene of romance and jealousy in Angelica's house feels much more grounded.

5. The establishment of Delatombe's distrust of Cavaldi means that Delatombe's intervention into the village prior to the climax feels, again, far less arbitrary. 

The "Fairytale Workprint" doesn't make Grimm a perfect movie, but it does elevate it to something that feels much more worthy of Gilliam's filmography. If you found no redeeming value to the original cut, you probably won't be converted here. If, however, you thought Grimm was a visually enthralling fairytale with a confused narrative and baffling character moments, TM2YC goes a long way toward redeeming it. 

I would love to hear Gilliam's thoughts on this cut, if someone were ever able to convince him to watch it. 

This is my first review of a "fan edit." Great work, TM2YC!
 
nvader90 said:
Great work, TM2YC!

Thanks for the very detailed review nvader90. All those comments you made about the deleted scenes being important character moments are very true. It's just a shame they are only available in terrible quality. One of the big strengths of the movie is the dazzling fairytale production design and that is best appreciated in HD. So my SD "Workprint" was never going to be an ideal way to watch TBG but hopefully it's an interesting glimpse at what might have been. I'd love Gilliam to put these scenes back in one day but that seems very unlikely.
 
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