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Terminator 3: The Coming Storm

elnino14 said:
There IS no story if the future never sent anything to the past in the first place.
Click to expand...

THAT's the key.

There is no "in the first place" in this loop story.
There is no "first" timeline where nothing happen until someone build a time machine and a war between machines and men starts somehow. That "somehow" is what happens in 1984.


And yes, Neglify is correct about the thread for WOST. I'm french and sometime I can be a bit unclear (imagine when I try to explain a terminator movie! haha)
 
Yes, but the loop can be broken. It's not necessary, and that's what you learn in the second film when Sarah becomes an agent of change.

The first timeline is the timeline you're referring to.

The second timeline would be the timeline would be the timeline that changed things for T2, T3 and T4. Judgement Day got pushed back because of the actions in T2. So it's not the same timeline anymore. That future that Terminator came from is different from the future that Kyle Reese and the Terminators from T-2 came from.


RE: WOST, Oh okay, I'll do that.
 
elnino14 said:
Yes, but the loop can be broken. It's not necessary, and that's what you learn in the second film when Sarah becomes an agent of change.

The first timeline is the timeline you're referring to.

The second timeline would be the timeline would be the timeline that changed things for T2, T3 and T4. Judgement Day got pushed back because of the actions in T2. So it's not the same timeline anymore. That future that Terminator came from is different from the future that Kyle Reese and the Terminators from T-2 came from.
Click to expand...

In the end I think we can agree.

That's why I prefer the first movie. The one where the loop is not broken yet.
T2 is great but opens the door to time change extravaganza, that I like a lot in movies like Back to the Future, but that is, IMO, not in line with what I liked the most in the first movie.
 
Here's the thing though...although T2's message is "No Fate" there's nothing in the film to say that everything isn't still the way it always was. Sarah faces the unknown future with a sense of hope...but the key word there is hope. There's no way for her to know if the future will be any different. (In fact, a deleted part of the T2 script confirms that it is the way things always happened, where older John chooses the CSM101 Terminator specifically because he remembers it from his childhood experiences. This made it into the novelization too.)

It's not until T3 that things are confirmed to have been changed. T1 and T2 complement each other just fine.
 
It's true there is nothing to suggest that they've actually changed things and there's nothing to suggest the opposite either, that it's still going to happen. From my (admittedly foggy) memory, there's no pieces of the Terminators lying around, the main operations and main architects of Skynet have been completely foiled. So neither direction is given clear cut bias by the end of the second film.

And None of that was confirmed until T-3 where it's definitive that basically yeah they changed things, but they can't stop Judgement Day from happening ever, which turned me off from the film as it flies in the face of finding hope built across both films.

But if you want go on about deleted things...there's a deleted scene from the second film that shows Sara Connor sitting on the bench at the playground like the one in her nightmares where everybody dies when the bomb goes off, except this time, she's older and a grandmother, and John Connor is playing with his son, and is a senator. Again definitively giving us an ending in the absolute opposite direction of predetermination. I'm not saying one way was better than the other, honestly this was a major concern but even if this was address smartly in the third film and everything else let the same it still would be pretty awful.

Still love T-2, anyways
 
re: predetermination in T3, it's just john connor's opinion (from his voice-over) that judgment day was going to happen regardless of what he tried to do. he could very well have been wrong, but from his perspective in that timeline (by which time the nukes started to rain down), nuclear war was the only possible reality. he didn't get to experience an alternate, peaceful outcome, so of course he's going to think judgment day was inevitable.

that's not to say that at any point in time post-T2 but pre-T3, if history had taken a different course, that judgment day couldn't have been averted.
 
twotstfimv2.jpg
 
ssj said:
re: predetermination in T3, it's just john connor's opinion (from his voice-over) that judgment day was going to happen regardless of what he tried to do.
Click to expand...
There's more than that. The Terminator also states clearly, "You only postponed it. Judgment Day is inevitable."

Of course, why the hell should his word be sacrosanct? How does he know, exactly?
 
Uncanny Antman said:
Of course, why the hell should his word be sacrosanct? How does he know, exactly?
Click to expand...

maybe his cereal toy said so. ;-)
 
Uncanny Antman said:
There's more than that. The Terminator also states clearly, "You only postponed it. Judgment Day is inevitable."
Click to expand...
No offense, but it always amazes me when people quote that line as evidence that JD absolutely must happen, because the Terminator has just said "there is insufficient time" to stop it - a pretty clear indication that that's not the case. He's saying that JD is inevitable in the 2-3 hour time frame before it occurs - the computer virus has grown too strong by that point; it will/already has find a way/multiple ways. Maybe if General Brewster hadn't flipped the switch, it would have overridden the fail-safes and prevailed anyhow.

In my understanding, it goes like this:

- Original timeline: CRS/military develops Skynet. JD occurs around 2004.
- T1 timeline: the T-800's remains in the Cyberdyne plant allow for a sped-up Skynet development. JD will now occur in 1997 (a date, IIRC, not mentioned in T1).
- T2 timeline: Cyberdyne is destroyed; the CRS/military program continues. JD will occur in 2004 again.
- T3 timeline: despite our heroes' efforts, no change to original JD timeline.

I fully respect anyone who chooses to stop the series at the end of either T1 or T2, but think T3 also meshes with both rather well. ;-)
 
some terminator humor:
click me.

(scroll down to the comment, please.)
 
Gaith said:
- Original timeline: CRS/military develops Skynet. JD occurs around 2004.
- T1 timeline: the T-800's remains in the Cyberdyne plant allow for a sped-up Skynet development. JD will now occur in 1997 (a date, IIRC, not mentioned in T1).
- T2 timeline: Cyberdyne is destroyed; the CRS/military program continues. JD will occur in 2004 again.
- T3 timeline: despite our heroes' efforts, no change to original JD timeline.
Click to expand...

Good thinking, but the problem here would be:
There IS a John Connor, leader of the resistance, in your "original" timeline no matter what.
The fact that his father would not be Kyle Reese but someone else, in your original timeline, makes the story of the first movie less good, IMO. I always liked the fact that John send Kyle Reese because he knows that he is his father, thanks to the recording of his mother. In your version he would randomly send Kyle Reese, and Kyle will "replace" his father, so he would not be the same John Connor anyway. A bit weird huh? Once again, for me there is no original timeline. 1984 always was the way it is in T1.
So, if we take your version of the timeline, we have to "rethink" the meaning of the first movie. So even if I guess we can rationalize the timeline the way you did, T3 is forcing you to see T1 in a way that it was not meant to be.
I'm not saying that it's something forbbiden in a movie franchise though. But it's sure no to please everyone. James Cameron first, as far as I know.
 
@ TMBTM:

There IS a John Connor, leader of the resistance, in your "original" timeline no matter what.
Correct.

The fact that his father would not be Kyle Reese but someone else, in your original timeline, makes the story of the first movie less good, IMO. I always liked the fact that John send Kyle Reese because he knows that he is his father, thanks to the recording of his mother.
Ah, but this is still the case! See below. :wink:

In your version he would randomly send Kyle Reese, and Kyle will "replace" his father, so he would not be the same John Connor anyway.
Again, correct.

A bit weird huh?
In the words of John Connor... "messes with your head." ;-)


My expanded take:
- Original timeline: CRS/military develops Skynet. JD occurs around 2004. John Connor is fathered by some non-Reese dude. Post-JD John sends Kyle back without any inkling that he and his mom will knock boots.
- T1 timeline: the T-800's remains in the Cyberdyne plant allow for a sped-up Skynet development. JD will now occur in 1997 (a date, IIRC, not mentioned in T1). John Connor is now fathered by Reese. When adult John Connor 2.0 sends Reese back, he knows Reese will be his dad.
- T2 timeline: Cyberdyne is destroyed; the CRS/military program continues. JD will occur in 2004 again.
- T3 timeline: despite our heroes' efforts, no major Skynet-related changes to original JD timeline... other than that Reese is still the father of John Connor 2.0.
 
All right, I understand better now.
But this "original" timeline story with a John Connor 0.1 not fathered by Reese is exactly what I said: something fun to think about for throwing multiple timelines in the mix and explaining the events of T3 in the end. It's an afterthought. And again, nothing wrong about that (I'm the first to like movies that makes you think!). It's just that it feels a convoluted way to explain T3 by re-thinking the events of T1. T1 is a loop movie. T2 opens the doors to multiple timelines but without crossing the line, and T3 crossed the line.
So should we say that T3 was bold enough to cross the line? I guess some could say that. But you can also understand the fans of the first movie who think that it was not needed and that it somehow denatures the meaning of the first movie.
Plus T3 is not that bold, because it's more or less a kind of a remake of T2 (except the ending). So was it needed to change what made the first movies so good in the mind of most of the fans to make a fake remake?
To each his answer.
 
PS: and again, I liked T3 much more than the average T fan! And I liked its ending.
I'm just like Neglify: I like Terminator discussions! ;)

(Hope Uncanny Antman is not mad about us for talking that much in his thread!)
 
Yeah, we may need a more general Terminator thread.
 
TMBTM said:
T1 is a loop movie. T2 opens the doors to multiple timelines but without crossing the line, and T3 crossed the line.
Click to expand...
Here's how I see it:

Time can either be changed, or it can't. If it can't, then T1 is a complete closed loop. Everything depicted was "original".

But if time can be changed, then the events of T1 were not original. Which means that the accelerated Skynet developed from the Terminator's chip was not the original. Maybe the original always was a Cyberdyne project. But maybe not.

In a way, therefore, T2 requires us to think that, unless the Connors find and destroy the original Skynet, the threat is still out there. (Unless only Dyson could invent Skynet, I guess, in which case his death could ensure a peaceful future.)


I'm the first to admit that T3 is not the equal of the first two movies. It's sort of like the brand-new Rolling Stones single: unoriginal, and not as good as the classics... but, thanks in large part to the presence of its original star, still better than the vast majority of new stuff out there:



Ex:
"Doom and Gloom" > "Teenage Dream"
"Terminator 3" > Bayformers trilogy



... Now, T4, there's a movie with nothing to offer! :p
 
probably should have a general Terminator thread. watched T1 recently and didn't mind it. it's held up quite a bit. T2 didn't hold up so much anymore. and then T3, last time I watched T3 was probably around the time that it came out on dvd (when I received it as a christmas gift that year). It felt like while it was breaking a little bit of ground (doomsday ending) it was basically more of what we seen before.

When Salvation rolled around, I actually didn't mind it. Still don't really mind it all that much, mostly cause it gave us something different than what we had seen before. Yeah, I had some irks bout it. (John Connor still not the leader of the resistance? Come on. It's been how many years since judgement day started.) It could've been a lot more. But overall, it did something different than T3 by showing what happened after T3. I also tried to make sense of the multiple timelines introduced and just ended up giving up on it.
 
salvation is terrrrrrrrriiiiiiiibbbbbllllleeeeeee.

I love T1 + T2, and not in a "the timeline works for me" kind of way. They are just good films. UA's and T-HOPE's edits of T3 make the third installation enjoyable for me. I won't get into the debate, and the arguments that have already been made go on and on (LOL time-travel nerd talk), but for me, the movie works and is enjoyable after the fanedit treatment.

On the other hand, nothing can save Salvation. Nothing. It was a terrible film, with little point, a terrible protagonist, and no real connection to the characters.

I hope future films (yes, they will happen) will be more enjoyable. Even season 1 of TSCC was enjoyable.
 
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