Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King Feanor Edition

[Sauron]

I know what you mean about the slow-motion because of the framerate. Here, I'll show you exactly what I had in mind:

You see how the battle is wrapped up? Everything becomes choppy and the music starts to play? You could do it just like that, except with Pelennor Fields and the echos of "Red fell the dew in rammas-echor...". If it doesn't work, you can still play the clips in regular motion, but have it slowly darken then eventually fade to black. Then, cut to Pippin looking for Merry at night or something.

What I had in mind for the Army of the Dead scene is not to cut them. You take the shots where they are in the back of the scene. Where you can only see the army if you have to focus on the background. In after effects, select that portion of the shot and color correct it to remove the green. Not remove them from the shot, just colour that portion of the shot differently. Maybe it isn't possible though, I suppose you know better than I anyway.

As for not showing them, you could always use that horrible scene from the EE where they board the ships. If you don't end up showing them, worst comes to worst, people can assume that they didn't listen to Aragorn or you could simply leave it to the imagination with the scene of the king telling Aragorn "we will fight".

You can second me as someone who really didn't like Elrond showing up in the Palantir. It felt really impossible. There's a lot of good stuff coming from Ian Mckellen's voicework in the LOTR video game that could be used. Or you could even use some of Elrond's lines to Aragorn in their meeting as part of Legolas explaining the Paths of the Dead.




For TTT, as I told you by pm, I really loved a lot fo the character restructuring that you've done (the Theoden edits for example was masterful. So, I'm only going to provide criticism:

The scene of Faramir meditating works, but it comes out of nowhere. You have to frame it by showing Faramir at the beginning so you understand what is going on. The clip of Denethor looking at Faramir and saying "a chance to show his quality" works really well and feels like he's talking straight to us in a dream. Maybe put that at the start right after seeing the shot of Faramir meditating.

Also, some of the effects shots in Osgiliath didn't quite work which is surprising considering how good your rotoscoping work was in ROTK.

 

[mukankakuna]

I think this message should be also here and not only in the TTT thread.

You trimmed Gimli pretty mercilessly. Case in point: You removed Gimli and Eomer's sharp exchange when they first meet, as well as most of his early dialogue. The audience would feel removed from the character, whereas merely trimming a few bits would have been effective.

I know and you are right. Other people say me the same.
I feel sorry for Gimli. I, indeed, cut him mercilessy. But this is because PJ & co. They made a clown of Gimli, to be the comic relief. I dislike a lot such decision. He is out of context most of the time. It have not much to do with Tolkien’s Gimli.
To match the tone of the book I had to cut him drastically.

To trim him the less possible I even change his tone of voice (his tone was comic) to keep some of his lines.
I like you bring up the first meeting with Eomer. Here is a perfect example of what PJ did to Gimli. That scene is in the book, and even the lines are mostly the same, but I removed it, why? Because they removed, on purpose, just the firsts, and just a few, lines of the conversation between Gimli and Eomer. That way Gimli’s lines are out of context and the whole scene turned in a comic way. PJ succeeded creating a comic scene but it’s not respectful with Tolkien’s book.
Because I wanted to maintain the tone of the books I had to cut so much of Gimli.

Sorry Gimli, It is not your fault.

 

[mukankakuna]

You see how the battle is wrapped up? Everything becomes choppy and the music starts to play? You could do it just like that, except with Pelennor Fields and the echos of "Red fell the dew in rammas-echor...". If it doesn't work, you can still play the clips in regular motion, but have it slowly darken then eventually fade to black. Then, cut to Pippin looking for Merry at night or something.

How would you manage some key moments and their pace like the death of Theoden and Eowyn against Witch king?
What would you do with the dialogues? (Witch King, Eowyn-Theoden)

What I had in mind for the Army of the Dead scene is not to cut them. You take the shots where they are in the back of the scene. Where you can only see the army if you have to focus on the background. In after effects, select that portion of the shot and color correct it to remove the green. Not remove them from the shot, just colour that portion of the shot differently. Maybe it isn't possible though, I suppose you know better than I anyway.

Hmm, I just checked it and it is not as difficult as I thought (it will be just a pain, but not impossible) and also I think it can actually work.

As for not showing them, you could always use that horrible scene from the EE where they board the ships. If you don't end up showing them, worst comes to worst, people can assume that they didn't listen to Aragorn or you could simply leave it to the imagination with the scene of the king telling Aragorn "we will fight".

Oh, I was forgotten that scene, you are right. I think it fits well to the proposal.
How would you manage the arriving of Aragorn and co. to Pelennor?

You can second me as someone who really didn't like Elrond showing up in the Palantir. It felt really impossible.

:-(

There's a lot of good stuff coming from Ian Mckellen's voicework in the LOTR video game that could be used.
O my goodness, I didn’t know that. This is VERY interesting. Can I get those lines from some place?
Or you could even use some of Elrond's lines to Aragorn in their meeting as part of Legolas explaining the Paths of the Dead.

which meeting? Rivendel’s meeting?




PS: Thanks for the TTT's comments. I will answer them in his thread.

 

[Sauron]

How would you manage some key moments and their pace like the death of Theoden and Eowyn against Witch king?
What would you do with the dialogues? (Witch King, Eowyn-Theoden)

The way I see it, you'd show all of that before the "montage". You'd show the death of Theoden and then the coming of the black ships so that there is a feeling of despair. It's over, the battle is won by Sauron's forces. Then you see the black ships again and you could use the shot of the flag of the white tree unfurl (the one from Faramir's dream before Boromir's departure). You recycle that shot. Then have Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli all jump off the boats. Then montage begin as you see the battle shift to the side of forces of good. You can use the shots of Eomer saying "drive them to the river..." so it's like the book where they drove the orcs into the Anduin. Then you end the montage with the far shot of Minas Tirith from the north and the destruction of the battle field. Fade to black. It's night, and Pippin is looking for Merry.


Hmm, I just checked it and it is not as difficult as I thought (it will be just a pain, but not impossible) and also I think it can actually work.

Good. You've covered some of the biggest mistakes so far (Shelob's lair, the meeting with Saruman, Theoden's character, the Witch-King battle, etc). Taking out the army is absolutely essential since there's nothing worse in a narrative than deus ex machina. I think with the solution that I provided, not only can you successfully remove it, but you are really making something special by including the song that Tolkien wrote.



Oh, I was forgotten that scene, you are right. I think it fits well to the proposal.
How would you manage the arriving of Aragorn and co. to Pelennor?

See above. Maybe, it could be possible to salvage shots of people on ships from some other movie like you did for the Palantir scene. Regardless, it isn't terribly necessary, but would add a nice layer of believability.


:-(

. This was me when I saw the scene: OMG, Aragorn with Palantir at Dunharrow. Amazing. Looks like he's really there. But let's see what he does with "Arwen is dying." --- oO He put the shots of the Corsair ships. Wow. This is so good. Elrond shows up? Me: Whaaa??? But it was great overall!


which meeting? Rivendel’s meeting?

On second thought, I just got a better idea ! When Aragorn is packing the horse, take the shot from TTT where he's walking next to the horse with Eowyn on the other side and he is thinking of Arwen. Colour correct the shot to night, insert it. Then have it go to a flashback of his scene with Elrond at Dunharrow. That scene needs to be rotoscoped though so that the characters are in Rivendell. You would put the full scene where Elrond presents Anduril reforged to Aragorn in FOTR. You would only flashback to the part where he says, "Put aside the ranger, become who you were born to be. Take the Dimholt road." Then end the flashback with Eowyn who startles him, saying, "Why are you leaving us". The rotoscoping IS possible. I have seen it done by somebody's edit in 2007 on theonering.net. Sadly, it doesn't exist anymore, so I can't show you.

PS: Thanks for the TTT's comments. I will answer them in his thread.
You're welcome

Response in bold.

 

[Hal9000]

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my responses.
Sometimes editing involves cutting things against your instincts, and I think most of my suggestions failed to understand your reasons. But I hear your points.
Maybe we could all get together some time and watch the various LOTR fan edits back-to-back. #killme

 

[mukankakuna]

This wild idea is getting better and better, I starting to feel excited.
It still is a crazy-hard edit work but the goal is well worth it.


I checked the Aragorn next to the horse walking scene (good choice by the way). The clothes match (this is good) but because he is walking it dosen't quite fit. I think the result will be too jarring. Better if it uses another scene. Also, I think here is the right moment to put the scene of Elrond speaking about the dead army and Anduril.
My idea was to rotoscope and put that scene into FOTR at Rivendel but now I'm shocked. There is an edit with it!? Do you have it? What's the name? Who is the author?


The removal of the dead army is taking shape. However, I am concerned the resulting scene can be too jarring-choppy. Arrival of Aragorn, slow motion and the transition between the end of the battle and the next scene.
Lately I do not have much spare time but this is looking promising.
It would be great to watch some kind of sketch to have a better view before do anything. Can you do a rough montage of it, forgot about the fx, with the Tolkien's music?


About the voicework in the LOTR (the videogame). You know where can I listen it?

 

[BladeRunner391]

So will there be a version 2 somewhere down the road?

 

[mukankakuna]

So will there be a version 2 somewhere down the road?

It could be.
Sauron's idea is great. Before say anything I need to work with it to check his viability and now I have not the time. Sooner or later I will try it.

 

[Sauron]

Here, I dug deep through the archives of the internet and found the fanedit I was talking about.

http://liveweb.archive.org/http://n...perl/gforum.cgi?post=7778;guest=58045746#7778

And for the post with the images of the rotoscoped Elrond/Aragorn conversation:

http://liveweb.archive.org/http://n...perl/gforum.cgi?post=8720;guest=58045746#8720


He is still active and you can contact him here: [FONT=verdana,helevetica][email protected]

Account name: frodolives


Hope this helps and serves as a source of inspiration. By the way, I looked up the effect that accompanies the slow-motion in Gladiator. It's called strobing.
[/FONT]

 

[mukankakuna]

Holly cow!
Those pics look awesome! With that he fixed all the Narcil-Anduril's plot.


Thanks a lot for the info. I'll try to contact frodolives. I need to watch those edits (BTW, if anyone can help me to find them pm me. I should be very grateful).

 

[ssj]

Rebue posted on IFDB:

Theatrical releases: I loved The Fellowship of the RIng. It was magical, and if it were a pillow, I'd hold it between my thighs every night. The Two Towers was rather OK—it did the job, but I wasn't in love. But The Return of the King was a true stinker in my eyes. . . er, nose. Aside from a few scenes that took my breath away, it seemed like a showcase for WTFish creative writing (for shame, Boyens & Walsh) and stupid CGI tricks.

In rides Mukankakuna with his Big Kahuna scissors, and now we get to see a refined version of RotK that's largely free of cringe. Denethor the Donkey Kong fireball? Extinguished. Legolas the tusk rider, Denethor the messy eater, Frodo the dismisser—all expunged, righteously expunged. No offense to Sharkey and Hal9000, but what remains is a purist edition of the movie that's even more puristy than the Sharkey editions. Yeah, whoa.

It's been a while since I've spun the RotK EE discs, so I'm sure I didn't notice all the changes and cuts. But what I saw didn't jar me out of my Middle Earth experience, and when hankering for a Lord of the Rings fix, I couldn't ask for anything more.

Enjoyjoy: 9 pelvic aero-thrusts.

P.S. Does anyone know why orcs sneaking into Osgiliath need to carry so many torches?

 

[mukankakuna]

Thank you for taking the time to watch it and write the review
Nice to hear opinions about it.


BTW: The torches have no explanation. It's just a dumb idea. I considered the idea to remove the torches but it was too difficult.

 

[ssj]

maybe because the torches looked so cool when the orcs marched on helm's deep in TTT. "gimme some mo' o' dat," someone said fappingly.

 

[mukankakuna]

I've been working on Sauron's idea about removing the Dead Army. I checked the FX, then I made a montage and it seems it actually works fine.
I don't know when it will be ready but I'm going for it because it's a big step in terms of fidelity. Maybe this edit is going back to "in the works" section until I finish version 2 with all the changes. The main change will be, of course, the stuff about the dead army but there will be also some minor changes, just some bits of refinement.
I said it works but I still have to watch the whole thing to know that for sure. Perhaps both versions will coexist together.


I have an early montage, kind of final, but I have some doubts. I also have doubts about to put more stuff about the dead army (right after the cave) or to put nothing and make it more mysterious (as it is now). Should I put more stuff or not?


If someone is interested and wants to provide me some feedback about it, I can share the edit (just the dead army part). If not, just wait until it is finish.

 

[Ayreonaut]

I'm very interested to see what you have done.

What did the dead army do in the book?
If you completely cut it from the movie what problems does that create with the story?

 

[Hal9000]

In the book, Aragorn and his Dunedain friends travel through the paths of the dead, and he recruits the dead to help alleviate the threat of the Corsair ships. The crew abandon ship out of fear, and the Dunedain free their slaves. The slaves and Dunedain man the ships and take them to Minas Tirith. The dead never arrive in Gondor, having been released from their oath before that. Their actual abilities in combat are left ambiguous, as all they really did was scare the Corsair ships empty.

 

[Ayreonaut]

With the footage available, what is the goal of the edit?

The three hunters show up and...

 

[mukankakuna]

In the book, Aragorn and his Dunedain friends travel through the paths of the dead, and he recruits the dead to help alleviate the threat of the Corsair ships. The crew abandon ship out of fear, and the Dunedain free their slaves. The slaves and Dunedain man the ships and take them to Minas Tirith. The dead never arrive in Gondor, having been released from their oath before that. Their actual abilities in combat are left ambiguous, as all they really did was scare the Corsair ships empty.

Perfect explanation.

With the footage available, what is the goal of the edit?

The three hunters show up and...

It's something close to Sauron's idea:
"... and then the coming of the black ships so that there is a feeling of despair. It's over, the battle is won by Sauron's forces. Then you see the black ships again and you could use the shot of the flag of the white tree unfurl (the one from Faramir's dream before Boromir's departure). You recycle that shot. Then have Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli all jump off the boats. Then montage begin as you see the battle shift to the side of forces of good. You can use the shots of Eomer saying "drive them to the river..." so it's like the book where they drove the orcs into the Anduin. Then you end the montage with the far shot of Minas Tirith from the north and the destruction of the battle field. Fade to black. It's night, and Pippin is looking for Merry."

The goal is to be closer to the book as possible. My concern with this particulary scene is that the result doesn't fit. That's why I said that, maybe, both versions could live together... or not.
Right now it's a big change, but the flow seems fine. I'm still working on it but my holidays are ended and it's going to take some time.

 

[Sauron]

I got the privilege of previewing mukankakuna's work-in-progress montage. I can attest that it is already pretty amazing, despite its rough form. Here are my criticisms/suggestions:

1. You should end the last verse when the chorus sings "...Red" with the shot of Eowyn on top of the dead Snowmane and dying Theoden. That makes it much more powerful.

2. You should move some of the reactions of the Rohirrim to the Mumakil charge to the appearance of the black ships. I don't agree with the placement of the shot of Eomer looking surprised at all. It should be right before the Aragorn reveal. The audience is supposed to feel despair when they see the ships, not hope, so you have to make them feel that by accentuating the reactions of the combatants, namely Eomer. So move the position of that shot.

3. You should have the conversation between Eowyn and Theoden right after the death fo the Witch-King. That way it's more like the book AND you accentuate the feeling of despair. You see that Theoden is dead and then the Corsair ships show up to seal the deal so to speak.

4. I'm not very comfortable with the timing of when you start the song and the slo-mo montage. It's a song about the death and great sacrifice of the Rohirrim. It should cue with a fight shot, not the face of Aragorn imo. It's pretty good like you have it, but I think you can come up with something better.

5. Have you tried inserting the white tree flag shot from Boromir's speech? If you color correct it to match the yellow-brown of Pelennor fields, you could have it just like the book (Ships appear = despair of Eomer and rohirrim, Flag unfurls = hope renewed).

 

[mukankakuna]

Thank you for the critics. I will take that into account.


About the scene beetwen Eowyn and Theoden previously it was right after the death of the Witch-king but it felt weird. I think it was because one part is in the middle of the battle (there is a lot of action in the background with all the sounds) and the other part is when the battle is over. Somehow it doesn't match very well. I will check it again.


5 - I didn't try to insert the white flag. I used the flag twice in TTT and thought it was enought but I will check it. The idea is great.