Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King Feanor Edition

[mukankakuna]

I will be downloading this very soon. Expect a review and feedback by next week.

That's great!

 

[Joshua_Blue22]

I hope to see your TTT edit soon, but for the ROTK, I'll wait for the comments of others. I would very much like to have something close to Kerr's book cuts, but in HD

 

[mukankakuna]

I hope to see your TTT edit soon, but for the ROTK, I'll wait for the comments of others. I would very much like to have something close to Kerr's book cuts, but in HD

There isn't much comments for the moment. Here is a topic speaking about the best edits of LOTR that might help.


If your concern is about fidelity with the book you must know that the main goal of the Feanor Edition is: "To make the most faithful edit of Tolkien's book." and I'm confident in that aspect.


Anyway, if you see my TTT edit you will know what to expect about the ROTK.

 

[Hal9000]

I hope to see your TTT edit soon, but for the ROTK, I'll wait for the comments of others. I would very much like to have something close to Kerr's book cuts, but in HD

HD versions of Kerr's book cuts will be on their way in a little over a year, so footage from the new film could be used. Kerr will also be putting together a similar "trilogy" type edit, similar to the project this thread is about and my own Sharkey Purist edits.

However, I wanted to chime in with my thoughts about Feanor's editions of TTT and ROTK. My views are influenced by having been in this position before, making a LOTR fan edit that values purism, so I mainly took notice of things that were different from other such edits. There were several things I loved about your edit, that I was very impressed by. I'll start with TTT: You handled the death of Theodred well in the "Rohan prologue" sequence. Theodred is found dead, and we don't linger so long in that short-lived subplot. Your take on the spookiness in the Dead Marshes was a good balance between cutting it altogether and leaving it altogether. You pulled off removing the punches and fighting as Gandalf approaches Theoden, which is something I tried at and failed. You edited the "Old Man Willow" scene in a novel way that worked well. Your edit of Aragorn eating Eyowen's stew was great, making it look like Aragorn only hesitated when she mentioned Theoden's comment, rather than Aragorn obviously disliking the stew. I don't think you handled the Ents as well as possible, but I thought your version of the 'tree trunk' scene in particular was very good. You did very well making Theoden take more responsibility and initiative during the battle, rather than Aragorn.
There were a few things I would critique in the interest of promoting a better result, even as I make plans with other editors for a similar future edit; the more options out there, the better: You trimmed Gimli pretty mercilessly. Case in point: You removed Gimli and Eomer's sharp exchange when they first meet, as well as most of his early dialogue. The audience would feel removed from the character, whereas merely trimming a few bits would have been effective. You left in the introduction of Brego the wonderhorse, which I thought was strange. Of course, this edit doesn't capitalize on this introduction, and we immediately get more interaction between Aragorn and Eyowen afterward anyway. You kept a small part of Grimi and Saruman's discussions, though so brief that it sticks out. You cut cold to the Arwen scene, which felt awkward. There were opportunities for a better transition, such as Aragorn's conversation with Eyowen or even his dream scene.

Onto ROTK, there were similarly many editing moments I sincerely enjoyed: Removing Smeagol's line, "my precious!" as he puts the ring on for the first time makes a good deal of sense. I really enjoyed your take on the parley with Saruman: You removed discussion of Frodo, which I think is a must, as well as of Aragorn, and defamation of Gandalf. There is no fireball either, which is awesome. I tried to cut that out but couldn't get it to work. You really made it look like Saruman dropped the palantir, which is much closer to the book. His posture right afterward really sells it. You also let Saruman live, which is sort of in keeping with the book, at least at that point. (Joke: maybe cut back to Saruman right after Barad-dur collapses and show him falling from Orthanc.) You removed two conversations at the banquet which were unimportant or strange, which I approve of. You handled Denethor's character very well, removing the tensest parts of Gandalf's initial meeting with him. You made Denethor seem repentent (or at least somewhat contemplative) as Pippin sings to him. Your idea of having Aragorn use the palantir earlier on is great, and Kerr and I had been planning something similar for our own! (Great minds think alike!) You edited the descent into the paths of the dead superbly. You made use of Kerr's approach to entering Shelob's lair (which is totally fine, I think its safe to say!), but improved upon it. Well done! My favorite bit of rotoscoping was probably the most subtle: to help the confrontation between Gandalf and the Witch-King. You removed Legolas and Gimli's continued counting game, which is fine. You got rid of the "searchlight" aspect of Sauron, which helped.
And here are some critiques: This edit has a continuity error. When we first see Merry and Pippin in Isengard, they are just figuring out that they are smoking Longbottom Leaf. But your version of TTT includes the scene from the EE where they find the (clearly labelled) Longbottom Leaf in Saruman's storehouse. Either lose that scene, or trim out the first few lines in ROTK. Minor point, but I've seen a few LOTR edits suffer from the same mistake. At the parley with Saruman, it seems strange that we don't see Grima in the scene. Since we see him so little a Isengard in TTT anyway, I would suggest either working him into the scene or ditching all of his Isengard scenes. If he isn't at the parley, I'd suggest the audience never see him again after he leaves Theoden. You severely edit down Gandalf's briefing about Minas Tirith, the black ships, and the palantir. Later on, the audience does not know what the significance of the beacons are. Gandalf and Pippin depart for Gondor on a "three days' ride," and arrive immediately. Also, the timing of the lighting of the beacons seems random. It might work to show them being lit right before Gandalf and Pippin show up. During the new palantir scene, Elrond's appearance seems out of place. Aragorn was communicating with Sauron, then Elrond appears to encourage and guide him. I was baffled as to why you cut out most of Aragorn and Eowyn's farewell. You also removed my favorite Sam moment, when he deals with orcs as he climbs to the top of the tower to find Frodo.

Thanks for these edits, and I look forward to your edit of FOTR. It seems like you, as well as Kerr and I, are waiting to work much on FOTR until the first Hobbit film is released on Blu-ray. The more the merrier. I hope these opinions and thoughts are helpful.

 

[mukankakuna]

Thanks a lot!
Very interesting feedback. I'm interested in all kind of feedback, all matters, but I like it the most when it's for an expert in Tolkien and in the movies.
I'm going to explain bit by bit the things you mention (my lack in english is killing me). I want to start with the continuity error that you mentioned about the Longbottom Leaf. I'm aware of that line but to me it's not an error. They are reaffirm one thing. In others words, (here starts my child explanation but I hope it will be explanatory ;-)). It's like if I give you a cup of wine and I tell you it's Rioja's wine and when you taste it you say "Definetly, it's a Rioja".

 

[Hal9000]

I look forward to it! I still think it's a continuity error, considering the earlier scene wasn't in the theatrical version. Merry points out that it is "definitely from the Shire," and itself is consistent with your suggestion. However, when he puts his finger on it (so to speak), and says "Longbottom leaf!" we see Pippin look at him, back at the tobacco, and then expresses agreement. It is only a continuity problem for the EE. It's a minor thing, and isn't really a puristy issue, and therefore I don't really care much about it. It's just something to point out.

 

[Sauron]

The rotoscoping for the Dunharrow palantir scene and the Shelob Lair scene were spectacular. I was really, really happy to see what you did with the Shelob Lair scene.

To add to Hal's suggestions, you should work on the Mouth of Sauron scene which turned out awkward. The Gandalf vs Witch king confrontation happens too quickly. You should play the clip where his sword gets inflamed in reverse, making it seem that Gandalf extinguished it when he raises his staff and adding precious seconds to the scene for more gravitas. Or simply loop the shot to make it longer (without having the flame get extinguished since it doesn't happen in the book).

If you could somehow pull of a rotoscoping and combination from other scenes to have the Witch-King confront Gandalf at the Gates, it would be incredible. hardly plausible though.

 

[mukankakuna]

To add to Hal's suggestions, you should work on the Mouth of Sauron scene which turned out awkward.

I suppose you mean the last part of the scene with the “magical” disappearance of Mouth of Sauron. Yeah, something can be done to improve it but even the original have this issue and it's a lot of work, but in the end, it would be great.

The Gandalf vs Witch king confrontation happens too quickly. You should play the clip where his sword gets inflamed in reverse, making it seem that Gandalf extinguished it when he raises his staff and adding precious seconds to the scene for more gravitas. Or simply loop the shot to make it longer (without having the flame get extinguished since it doesn't happen in the book).

Yeah, it’s a very fast scene. I wish I could make it longer. There isn’t much material to play with it.
I even did a rotoscoping to gain 15-20 frames.
Most of the time the loops doesn’t do the trick. But, because I didn’t try, I don’t know if it would worked.

If you could somehow pull of a rotoscoping and combination from other scenes to have the Witch-King confront Gandalf at the Gates, it would be incredible. hardly plausible though.

Oh, that would be pretty amazing. In fact, I must say I tried to do it. Checked other sources to get material and had some ideas but then, the reality hit me. It’s much, much beyong my skills. It would needed, not only rotoscoping, but full CGI work.

 

[mukankakuna]

You severely edit down Gandalf's briefing about Minas Tirith, the black ships, and the palantir. Later on, the audience does not know what the significance of the beacons are.

Yeah, those are the weakest points of the edit.
About the beacons, I think the scene makes sense right after it ends and we see the next scene. At that point, it should be easy to understand his meaning. Before that, we only have one line of Gandalf and it’s not enough. It was a risky edit decision but, watching the whole, I feel it works.
On the other hand, it feels wrong to see Gandalf lecturing Theoden about the beacons.


About the black ships,

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I did it to match the books (I also think it’s not very well handled in the movie) and to made a high moment at Dunharrow. To me, the black ships is the weakest point of the edit, even if it’s much more like the book and it's a fine new scene.

Gandalf and Pippin depart for Gondor on a "three days' ride," and arrive immediately.
Hmm... Don't know what to say. The magic of the cinema? Just joking, I had troubles to fit it whit others scenes.
Good point.

Hmm... Don't know what to say. The magic of the cinema? Just joking, I had troubles to fit it in other places.
Good point.

Also, the timing of the lighting of the beacons seems random. It might work to show them being lit right before Gandalf and Pippin show up.

Yeah, there is a lot of posibilities with this scene. I had issues when I was moving it to other places. At the end that was the best position I found.
Also, I wanted Gandalf in the scene to say his line and give the audience one clue of what was happening.


More to come...

 

[Sauron]

Hal9000, if you remember, I pm'd you last year with the proposition of sharing with you ideas that I had for a purist edit of the Lord of the Rings. Sadly, after seeing that you stopped updating your thread, I gave up on pursuign the project.

However, it would be an amazing endeavour if the edit could be opened up as a sort of semi-collaborative project where different people can put in their input.

Combine the best of ideas, edits (Just look at what Mukan has succeeded in doing, I would never have thought it possible), we could have something incredible on our hands.


Particularly, Mukankakuna, I suggest revamping Pelennor Fields entirely: Remove the army of the dead. How, you may ask?

Well, by wrapping up the battle with slow-mo ala Gladiator accompanied with the Tolkien Ensemble's rendition fo the Mounds of Mundburg.

Have the battle montage slow down to slomo, have the shot of Eomer crying after seeing his daughter, shots of Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli while color correcting the green and removing it, bam!

The result:

1. Inclusion of Tolkien's songs (God knows how much the movies were lacking). This one is particularly haunting and fit for ending the battle considering it speaks of how many died on the field of battle.

2. Removal of the dead army deus ex machina.

3. Closer to the book and more satisfactory narrative closure of battle which goes on for far too long anyway.

etc, etc.

 

[Hal9000]

Sauron, were you the one who edited FOTR and sent me a link to see it on YouTube? I apologize, but I don't remember anyone other than that.
However, I do invite any input, and feel free to PM me or respond in the other threads. I don't chime in here very often, but I'll see it eventually. Or you could email me directly here: kirkafur at gmail.com.

Kerr is the one doing the heavy lifting, and so I consider my input to be suggestive. I'd happily compile and send along any suggestions. I think we're all after the best possible LOTR purist edit(s). The Star Wars prequel fan edits borrow from each other constantly in order to get the right balance. I think LOTR fan edits should do the same.

We're all friends here... right?

 

[Neglify]

We're all friends here... right?

I has friends now hooray

 

[TV's Frink]

Just a gentle reminder to keep this thread focused on the edit at hand. If you guys want to discuss a collaboration, that's great, but please start a new thread for it.

 

[Sauron]

I was in fact addressing the Feanor edit at the same time. The point was that efforts should be merged, as Hal is saying, to produce the best LOTR fan edit out there. I don't know what mukankakuna wants to do with his fanedits. He did tell me that he's waiting on the Hobbit to produce FOTR. My suggestion is applicable to his edit and I would love to see him merge his talents to Kerr's for example. But that's all up to him.

 

[TV's Frink]

This edit has already been released.

 

[mukankakuna]

Removing Smeagol's line, "my precious!" as he puts the ring on for the first time makes a good deal of sense.

There are some tiny cuts in order to match the books (in both, ROTK and TTT) that are very hard to notice. I love when they are found and it shows you know by heart the movie. It’s always fun.

My favorite bit of rotoscoping was probably the most subtle: to help the confrontation between Gandalf and the Witch-King.

You also noticed it, good eye. Lot of work just for gain 15~20 frames.



More to come...

You made use of Kerr's approach to entering Shelob's lair (which is totally fine, I think its safe to say!), but improved upon it. Well done!

Of course is fine, In fact it should be mandatory. It was one of the first things I have said:

Also I want to thank Kerr because I took three ideas from his edition. Orcs in Osgiliath, entrance to the Shelob's tunnel and Sam vs. Shelob.
He did a wonderful job. Credit to him.

For the FLOTR I’m also going to take ideas from Kerr and from Spelledaren’s edit (the Weathertop scene is very tempting, even it’s not like the book. Just in case, I did the proper changes at my ROTK to integrate that scene without issues, ;-))

At the parley with Saruman, it seems strange that we don't see Grima in the scene. Since we see him so little a Isengard in TTT anyway, I would suggest either working him into the scene or ditching all of his Isengard scenes. If he isn't at the parley, I'd suggest the audience never see him again after he leaves Theoden.

That’s curious. I don't feel it that way but is good to know. I would like to know if it’s just you or it’s more widespread.
In any case, this way is closer to the book. Grima never show up in the parley even if he is the one who throws the palantir. I wanted to do it, and I worked on it but, at the end, it was not possible.



More to come...

 

[mukankakuna]

I suggest revamping Pelennor Fields entirely: Remove the army of the dead. How, you may ask?

Well, by wrapping up the battle with slow-mo ala Gladiator accompanied with the Tolkien Ensemble's rendition fo the Mounds of Mundburg.

Have the battle montage slow down to slomo, have the shot of Eomer crying after seeing his daughter, shots of Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli while color correcting the green and removing it, bam!

The result:

1. Inclusion of Tolkien's songs (God knows how much the movies were lacking). This one is particularly haunting and fit for ending the battle considering it speaks of how many died on the field of battle.

2. Removal of the dead army deus ex machina.

3. Closer to the book and more satisfactory narrative closure of battle which goes on for far too long anyway.

etc, etc.

If a thing like that can be make it would be truly awesome and that music fit it wonderfully. In fact I wish it can be done.
But also, because the material, it is going to be, I don't know, something near to imposible to achieve.


Tecnicaly, it would be a hell to make it. To have the battle montage in slow motion would result in a choppy movement (because the source is not in slow motion). Removing the dead army would be a nightmare because the camera movement. It's really, really, difficult to do it. It would require a profesional team.

In the other hand, to do that creates another issue because, what happens to the army? Where is the army? Why Aragorn goes to them asking for their aid? You should need to recreate the battle at Pelargir or some mention of it, but how?
The root of the problem is in the movies. It managed poorly the whole thing.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's a trully wonderful idea but incredibly difficult to achieve.
I encourage you to try to do it, just like a skecth (nothing fancy) to check his viavility and then show me/us, with some explanation. Perhaps you would find the key to make it work.


BTW:I asked him to share his ideas. I'm very interested in those things. The edit is released but you never know... same thing happened with my TTT edit.

 

[TV's Frink]

Fair enough.

 

[mukankakuna]

I was baffled as to why you cut out most of Aragorn and Eowyn's farewell.

It was the best way I found to match the book. It was a very tricky to edit scene but now it is more in the line of Tolkien.
The original scene is horrible. I don’t know what the hell was thinking Peter Jackson and co. (ok, in the commercialisation) but he ruined it. It goes against the book and Tolkien’s spirit. It makes me feel bad such commercialisation.

During the new palantir scene...

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During the new palantir scene..., Elrond's appearance seems out of place. Aragorn was communicating with Sauron, then Elrond appears to encourage and guide him.

There was a previous versión totally diferent and it worked flawless. It was a solid work and was very proud of it, the only thing was that it had not a palantir in it, not at all.
About Elrond, since i started the edit, I had in mind, like a mandatory thing, to not bring Elrond to Dunharrow because it’s going too far against the book. Of course, doing that I create new gaps that I have to fill.
Some how I must to provide some information, about the dead army, to Aragorn. In my dreamed edit one of the Elrond’s sons should do it, but this was not possible and soon I abandoned the idea.

I agree more or less with you about the Elrond’s appearance because it is, indeed, out of place but, also, Aragorn is using a Palantir and it could be.
By the way, it’s kind of funny that I was unable to do the steps in order. In the book, he discovers the black ships first and then he shows himself to Sauron. It might sound silly but I was unable to do it.

 

[mukankakuna]

You also removed my favorite Sam moment, when he deals with orcs as he climbs to the top of the tower to find Frodo.

I’m glad you bring up this.
First, it is one of my favorites parts of the whole trilogy.
I was confident to achieve Sam casting his shadow and the uruks running away, but then, the reality struck me again. I tried and tried but I was unable to make the uruks to run away. Then I had two choices, to let in the whole scene or erase it.
With regret, I choosed erase it because I wanted to fit the tone of the book. Also, it’s not in the book and feels wrong to see Sam killing three uruks (and, yeah, they are uruks, not orcs) so easily while he is saying such silly lines. In the books, Sam doesn’t kill anybody in the tower (in fact, I don’t know if he kill someone in the entire trilogy).
The casting shadow thing is very well done and it is disapointing to not be capable of edit it.



I will answer your questions about TTT in his thread.