Wonder Woman 1984

[TM2YC]

Why did they bother setting this in the 80's, when their's barley any 80's music in their?

I know, right?

The story is very specifically 80s.  The Reagan/Thatcher era vacuous consumerism at it's height is what the message of the film is all about.  It's the awful clothes, permed and quaffed hair and too much makeup.  Lord's polyester suit couldn't have looked more 80s.

 

[Zarius]

Why did they bother setting this in the 80's, when their's barley any 80's music in their?

I know, right?

The story is very specifically 80s.  The Reagan/Thatcher era vacuous consumerism at it's height is what the message of the film is all about.  It's the awful clothes, permed and quaffed hair and too much makeup.  Lord's polyester suit couldn't have looked more 80s.

You deliberately missed this to create a strawman

We live in a very nostalgia-driven society. Every year is 1984 these days.

 

[Wakeupkeo]

I liked it. I wasn't sure for the first 20 min or so but I got into it. I liked the villain motivations, which is so important.

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Definitely good material to hone down to a fun thriller as its a bit overstuffed. Barbara's nerdy persona was a bit too much, and the whole world needing to renounce their wish was typical WW over-sappy ending, but can be tightened to be more personal between the main characters. All doable. 

I think the opening scene is not needed, but loved the music. That opening scene was weird to me. Diana is so good at all these skills already and is showing off, but is still "being trained in secret"?!? And having watched years of Ninja Warrior, her little body being faster than the taller women (in certain parts of the obstacle course) was too much for me. Some cool moments but the whole scene was just too over the top for me personally. And opening in 1984 would be just fine for me too.

I agree with Zarius about one thing - the bad use of BvS music in the climax. It felt connective to the DCEU but not to this movie, it felt out of place to me. (Maybe I worked on BvS too much.) Agreed that the whole score could have used more 80's audio touches.

 

[Zarius]

All it shows is WB doubled-down on the Whedon approach to JL and there was no time to dial that back. This film was reported to have had terrible test screenings a year or so back too, and a lot of the sequences in the finished product feel very much like reshoots.

Snyder's vision for DC may have, to quote the incomparable Mr. Lucas 'went too far in places', but going too far in the opposite direction can hurt these kind of films just as much.

With or without the pandemic, this movie would have done Whedon JL numbers.

There is nothing at stake in this one, nothing is learned, nothing is gained. It need'nt have existed. And sooner or later, you will forget it ever did.

 

[TM2YC]

You deliberately missed this to create a strawman

We live in a very nostalgia-driven society. Every year is 1984 these days.

I didn't miss it, I just don't really know what you mean (or what it means in relation to the film) and how is me pointing out the importance of it being set in the 80s, a "strawman" argument, when you said there was no point to it being set it in the 80s?

without the pandemic, this movie would have done Whedon JL numbers.

I very much doubt that.  WW had the 3rd biggest boxoffice of the DCEU but was also the third cheapest.  It was massively popular and profitable.  I see know reason why you'd expect this to have been less successful (in a normal year).  We'll never know.

 

[Zarius]

Oh, and I love that people who disliked Man of Steel's Zod neck snapping are perfectly fine with

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Diana bedding a complete stranger possessed by her dead boyfriend

That's something else to cut out BTW.

Yeah, the more you think about this, the more it falls apart.

Garbage. 

(drops mic)

 

[bionicbob]

SPOILER FREE musings...

Watched TWICE.

Really enjoyed it. Gal Gadot is remarkable and is the glue that holds the movie together.

This is in many ways is Old School super-heroics as there are many moments that channel the optimistic vibe of Christopher Reeve and Lynda Carter. Director Patty Jenkins confidently steps out from Zac Snyder's bleak shadow and channels a story about Hope and Truth. This is not a cynical movie.

It is a long movie. At two and half hours, it takes it time developing it's characters and escalating it's plot. For some, this might feel slow, but for me, I found it very engaging. Since this movie is more retro in it's narrative, it uses many familiar tropes and has a predictable quality, thus it is essential to flesh out the characters and give them moments to shine, so you care about them and are willing to go on the ride, even when you might feel you have seen this before. Director Jenkins succeeds masterfully in this respect, particularly creating sympathy and complexity for our villains.

It is not a perfect movie but I did it find it very fun. For me, it stays true to the Wonder Woman character I know, and I truly loved the ending, where our Amazon Warrior saves the world with Words rather than Fists.

For me, a really wonderful super hero movie filled with great characters beats, epic action and emotional feels.

THUMBS UP

 

[Jrzag42]

This movie was pretty good.

 

[Zarius]

SPOILER FREE musings...

Watched TWICE.

Really enjoyed it. Gal Gadot is remarkable and is the glue that holds the movie together.

This is in many ways is Old School super-heroics as there are many moments that channel the optimistic vibe of Christopher Reeve and Lynda Carter. Director Patty Jenkins confidently steps out from Zac Snyder's bleak shadow and channels a story about Hope and Truth. This is not a cynical movie.

It is a long movie. At two and half hours, it takes it time developing it's characters and escalating it's plot. For some, this might feel slow, but for me, I found it very engaging. Since this movie is more retro in it's narrative, it uses many familiar tropes and has a predictable quality, thus it is essential to flesh out the characters and give them moments to shine, so you care about them and are willing to go on the ride, even when you might feel you have seen this before. Director Jenkins succeeds masterfully in this respect, particularly creating sympathy and complexity for our villains.

It is not a perfect movie but I did it find it very fun. For me, it stays true to the Wonder Woman character I know, and I truly loved the ending, where our Amazon Warrior saves the world with Words rather than Fists.

For me, a really wonderful super hero movie filled with great characters beats, epic action and emotional feels.

THUMBS UP

Bob, I love you to bits, you're a mentor and a friend and I appreciate you being up front about your enjoyment.

But I have to respectfully disagree. 

I can read the room,  and the likes of you and TMTYC are in the minority. I just got back from r/fanedit and they are coming up with far worthier edits of this movie to eventually enjoy, they are tearing the original version to pieces and every point they make is valid.
 

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On the subject of being heavily influenced by Reeve and Carter...I honestly think that pandering needs to come to an end in the 21st century. We get it, those shows and films of old are iconic, but they are throwbacks, reminders of 'simpler times', as complex as the world is now, people want just that with their characters. The first Wonder Woman handles that superbly, a world full of stakes, drama, and complexities, a fish out of water buddy film played straight, a harsh life lesson learned, and something is gained. 

In this film, nothing is truly at stake, nothing is learned, and nothing is gained. You don't believe for a second this is like Watchmen and something of true consequence happens in 1984, this is Walt Disney's Watchmen, an ending where Ozymandius doesn't have a five minute head start and everyone actually succeeds in talking him out of it. The only means of achieving this is by giving Maxwell a son he's never had in the comics in order to necessitate this ridiculous ending.

Diana should have killed at least one of the two villains, to give the film some consequential edge, and to show Diana that not every battle cannot be fully resolved without bloodshed. Minerva should not have survived her electrocution.

I didn't care for the characters particularly because of the film's 'predictability', why should I care about something I've seen in so many other, better movies executed in ways that aren't so predictable? Why should I settle for so much less?

On top of that, Minerva takes far too long to explode the way she does at the White House. I'd have had her wish she were an apex predator right after the assault in the park, on top of that, yeah, she should have said she was interested in being more like Diana, and then we could have had a little bit of a duality issue...sure that would have been a bit predictable too, but it probably would have stood a better chance of being handled in an unexpected fashion, and it would have given Minerva's inevitable transformation more time, instead of being a "final form" for a conflict that barely lasts five minutes towards the end.

So what I can take from your assessment is that the film lacks that Snyder influence that complimented the heights of heart and drama that was in the first movie.....is completely predictable, reminds you of very cheesy movies and tv shows, and somehow that's...a good thing? You're telling us to just...settle for that? Dude, I get 2020 has people yearning for 'simpler times', but that doesn't mean you should settle for inferior movies.

All this film did was convince me for all time that Gal Gadot does nothing but phone it in. Whedon Justice League already exposed her, but this? it takes her right until she says goodbye to Steve to dial it up emotionally and shows she really doesn't want to lose him. It's not Gadot's horrible wooden acting that carries this film, it's the man. It's Pine. He plays the 'man out of time' role perfectly here, in ways that would flatter even the poster child for it in Steve Rogers, and even as a spectre, a wish made reality, he's still self-aware and selfless, he knows his being there is wrong and he's the one that truly motivates Diana to make the necessary sacrifice.

All I saw an overly bright, overly long, pointless and futile knock-off of Superman I and II with a condescending "love conquers all" ending that wraps up with the main character wishing a man she raped a merry Christmas and faces no consequences for that. Oh, and it's the VILLAIN that gets the happy ending. How is any of that optimistic? Diana doesn't move on either, she never has another love, in Justice League she's still pining for Steve.

This is not a well made movie, it is not a well written movie, and it is not a movie that many will talk about for it's positive qualities, if people are even still talking about it at all by the end of the week

That's the last hot take I'll have on this film for this thread, if I sounded a little 'wired' yesterday and a little bit now itis because my mum was doing poorly on Boxing Day, and my brother just tested positive for Covid this morning, so venting about how much of a let down this movie was is proving to be my refuge from how much of a let down the real world has been for me at the moment

 

[bionicbob]

....sigh....  @Zarius we have done this dance before.... 

I get it.  You hate the movie.  And I am not telling you have to like it or settle for it.

All I am saying is that I liked it.  I enjoyed it.  Twice.  

And you listing all the reasons why you did not like it, (or why I should not like it) is not going to change my mind.   I understand and respect your reasons for not liking, but honestly, most of them I do not agree with... but again, that's me. I like and want different things from this movie and genre.  And if I am in the minority, what's wrong with that?  

People like different things for different reasons.  One person's trash is another person's treasure.
For example, I still LOVE Avengers Endgame.  Another movie you hated and swore everyone would change their mind on once the hype settled down.  But I watched it again just last week, and I still believe it is a monumental achievement and I still cried all over again for the last 40 minutes.  But that is me.  

I found WW84 to be a flawed but very fun movie.

I think this IGN review reflects pretty closely how I feel about it....

 

[Zarius]

....sigh....  @Zarius we have done this dance before.... 

I get it.  You hate the movie.  And I am not telling you have to like it or settle for it.

All I am saying is that I liked it.  I enjoyed it.  Twice.  

And you listing all the reasons why you did not like it, (or why I should not like it) is not going to change my mind.   I understand and respect your reasons for not liking, but honestly, most of them I do not agree with... but again, that's me. I like and want different things from this movie and genre.  And if I am in the minority, what's wrong with that?  

People like different things for different reasons.  One person's trash is another person's treasure.
For example, I still LOVE Avengers Endgame.  Another movie you hated and swore everyone would change their mind on once the hype settled down.  But I watched it again just last week, and I still believe it is a monumental achievement and I still cried all over again for the last 40 minutes.  But that is me.  

I found WW84 to be a flawed but very fun movie.

I think this IGN review reflects pretty closely how I feel about it....

IGN are shills for everything, so there's no chance of me taking anything they say seriously

Endgame isn't as bad as I thought it was at the time, I'm not saying my mind changed completely on it, but I have edited it a multitude of times now to bring out more of the strengths...and that's really the point of our little hobby, not just to enhance an experience, but to make a movie you want to like, maybe even love, loads better.

Endgame is an average movie made brilliantly, WW 84 is a good movie made badly

I hate WW 84 in it's present form, that doesn't mean I can't come to appreciate it if I edit the dickens out of it. There does exist an interesting film in there, but it required a lot more work.

That's why I'm baffled when two seasoned editors that I really respect find so little wrong with the movie, when you need only go to 4chan or reddit and they explain in blistering detail everything that's wrong with not just the narrative, but the EDITING too. I figured a film like this would be easy pickings for you guys, even if you have no further time or interest in editing a movie, surely you should see something needs fixing in this one?

It's all perfectly well and good if you like it my friend, but I'm still a young and hungry editor and was very disappointed that, while it was so many different movies in one, the essence, stakes, and drama of the original WW that I loved so much was lost in amongst the fuss of it all.

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

I haven’t read this thread but I watched it with my kids. It was fine. I have zero investment in the character or franchise so I had no baggage going in. I remember almost nothing from the first movie but I don’t think that matters. That said, I think with something like superhero movies you can either treat it as a sort of modern mythology and take it seriously or you can lean in to the inherent silliness. This one clearly went for the latter. And by setting it in the 80s it clearly went for that 70s and 80s brand of superhero or action spectacle. It’s not worried about it making sense or following any sort of logic. I mean it’s about an immortal (?) Amazonian princess superhero battling a cheetah woman and her wish granting, monkey’s paw possessing benefactor for Pete’s sake. I wasn’t totally immersed. I thought it was fine. My kids enjoyed it, though at one point one said, “that doesn’t look like very good armor” about Diana’s regular WW outfit. That probably prompted my biggest laugh. I kind of doubt any of us will remember much of it a week from now, but it was a diverting enough 2.5 hours during lockdown.

 

[LastSurvivor]

Interesting how this films is genuinely splitting fan opinion right down the middle.  I was lucky enough to see it on the big screen before my part of the UK went into Tier 4 Covid lockdown, and boy am I glad I did.  

First of all, this is a very different beast to the original film.  I loved the original, but I was pleased to see Jenkins take a very different approach to WW84.  For a comic book film, I have to admit there isn't a huge amount of action on show here.  Indeed, that's where some of the criticism has come in, as Jenkins and Johns' script clearly wants us to spend time with the main characters here before any real action gets under way.  Personally, I found this quite refreshing - it's kinda old school in its pacing, but at least it allowed the viewer to see what Diana has been doing, how she feels a bit lost in the world, in addition to building the characters of Barbara and Maxwell Lord, who again are a pleasant surprise in that they are far from just pure evil villains.

Sure, some of it's a little corny (such as making Barbara a clumsy, rather bumbling person), but this is old school comic book heroics here, and I for one enjoyed every minute of it.  Jenkins doesn't even attempt to hide how much of a fan she is of Richard Donner's original Superman movie... there are plenty of scenes here which not only echo, but downright blatantly reference that classic movie.  Again, some may find it too "on the nose", but I appreciated it.  There's a sense of joy in this film, particularly in Gal Gadot's excellent portrayal of Wonder Woman, and I couldn't help but be seduced by it.   

The finale in-particular I genuinely loved.  It's certainly not for people who want a massive battle sequence between the major villain and our hero, but it's a brave bold move for a blockbuster movie to go smaller, and not surprisingly it has come in for some criticism because of it.   

Granted, this is a long film, and yes maybe some trims here and there could have been welcome.  However, I sat there in the cinema enthralled with what I was seeing, and I was emotionally involved all the way through.  Is it as good as the original?  For me, not quite, but it's a very solid sequel with an excellent cast and I can't wait to watch it again.

Oh, and finally I can't not mention Hans Zimmer score.  He's a composer that I have a love and hate relationship with.  I feel over the last decade or so he's been very hit and miss.  For every Interstellar, there's something as tepid and awful as Dark Phoenix.  So, when I heard he was doing WW84, I was very worried, especially as I loved Rupert Gregson Williams' score for the original Wonder Woman.  However, Zimmer has excelled himself here.  It's an old school score, full of heart and soul and I can't stop listening to it!

Roll on WW3

 

[Jrzag42]

This is in many ways is Old School super-heroics as there are many moments that channel the optimistic vibe of Christopher Reeve and Lynda Carter.

I'm really glad to see that I'm not the only one to draw the comparison to Christopher Reeve's Superman.

But yeah, I thought the movie was pretty good, I didn't really have any issues with it, I absolutely look forward to watching it again. It's cool that people generally hate it, I'm used to having all kinds of unpopular opinions, I still prefer Attack of the Clones to Empire Strikes Back, it may not be the most well made movie and I can understand the criticisms, but I just happened to enjoy it a lot. I do look forward to seeing what editors do with it though.

 

[Zarius]

This is in many ways is Old School super-heroics as there are many moments that channel the optimistic vibe of Christopher Reeve and Lynda Carter.

I'm really glad to see that I'm not the only one to draw the comparison to Christopher Reeve's Superman.

But yeah, I thought the movie was pretty good, I didn't really have any issues with it, I absolutely look forward to watching it again. It's cool that people generally hate it, I'm used to having all kinds of unpopular opinions, I still prefer Attack of the Clones to Empire Strikes Back, it may not be the most well made movie and I can understand the criticisms, but I just happened to enjoy it a lot. I do look forward to seeing what editors do with it though.

I'd give @"TinyBreadMouse" 's edit ideas thread a look, he's got some great ideas on how to polish up the movie.

Attack of the Clones has more of a plot than Empire, I'll give you that, and that's been improved on many occasions.

 

[asterixsmeagol]

I watched the movie last night with my wife who generally does not watch or like superhero movies.(She has seen most of the X-Men movies and did like First Class and Days of Future Past but that's about it). She has never seen any DC movies. Neither of us loved the movie, but we found it generally enjoyable if a little too long. Her favorite part was Chris Pine trying on clothes, mostly because of the fancy pack he ended up wearing in the next scene. Her biggest problem (beyond pacing) was how unlikable they made Barbara, and how her "turn" came from her being accosted in the street.

 

[bionicbob]

....sigh....  @Zarius we have done this dance before.... 

I get it.  You hate the movie.  And I am not telling you have to like it or settle for it.

All I am saying is that I liked it.  I enjoyed it.  Twice.  

And you listing all the reasons why you did not like it, (or why I should not like it) is not going to change my mind.   I understand and respect your reasons for not liking, but honestly, most of them I do not agree with... but again, that's me. I like and want different things from this movie and genre.  And if I am in the minority, what's wrong with that?  

People like different things for different reasons.  One person's trash is another person's treasure.
For example, I still LOVE Avengers Endgame.  Another movie you hated and swore everyone would change their mind on once the hype settled down.  But I watched it again just last week, and I still believe it is a monumental achievement and I still cried all over again for the last 40 minutes.  But that is me.  

I found WW84 to be a flawed but very fun movie.

I think this IGN review reflects pretty closely how I feel about it....

That's why I'm baffled when two seasoned editors that I really respect find so little wrong with the movie, when you need only go to 4chan or reddit and they explain in blistering detail everything that's wrong with not just the narrative, but the EDITING too. I figured a film like this would be easy pickings for you guys, even if you have no further time or interest in editing a movie, surely you should see something needs fixing in this one?

I said it was not perfect.
I said it was flawed.

But that does not mean I can not enjoy it or even love it.

 

[Zarius]

....sigh....  @Zarius we have done this dance before.... 

I get it.  You hate the movie.  And I am not telling you have to like it or settle for it.

All I am saying is that I liked it.  I enjoyed it.  Twice.  

And you listing all the reasons why you did not like it, (or why I should not like it) is not going to change my mind.   I understand and respect your reasons for not liking, but honestly, most of them I do not agree with... but again, that's me. I like and want different things from this movie and genre.  And if I am in the minority, what's wrong with that?  

People like different things for different reasons.  One person's trash is another person's treasure.
For example, I still LOVE Avengers Endgame.  Another movie you hated and swore everyone would change their mind on once the hype settled down.  But I watched it again just last week, and I still believe it is a monumental achievement and I still cried all over again for the last 40 minutes.  But that is me.  

I found WW84 to be a flawed but very fun movie.

I think this IGN review reflects pretty closely how I feel about it....

That's why I'm baffled when two seasoned editors that I really respect find so little wrong with the movie, when you need only go to 4chan or reddit and they explain in blistering detail everything that's wrong with not just the narrative, but the EDITING too. I figured a film like this would be easy pickings for you guys, even if you have no further time or interest in editing a movie, surely you should see something needs fixing in this one?

I said it was not perfect.
I said it was flawed.

But that does not mean I can not enjoy it or even love it.

And I said I'd like the movie if it were edited a certain way.

I never said it was irredeemable.

It's a potentially good movie done very badly.

If you think otherwise, rock on tommy, thanks for the conversation, it seems I'm in the minority around these parts. And that's fine too, because I know there's a growing majority out there who don't like it, and those people will have ideas on how to fix it, and they'll migrate over here. 

And there will be edits

This crazy hobby of ours will keep on expanding.

 

[TM2YC]

First of all, this is a very different beast to the original film.  I loved the original, but I was pleased to see Jenkins take a very different approach to WW84.

Yes I forgot to mention that. Lots of quite satisfactory sequels are content to repeat the first film with a new skin but WW84 was a very different kind of plot to the first.

I'd say it had a Superman 3 kind of tone (which I like).

 

[bionicbob]

WB greenlights WONDER WOMAN 3...

https://variety.com/2020/film/news/wonder-woman-3-gal-gadot-patty-jenkins-1234875194/