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Womble and HD

A

ADigitalMan

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OK folks I have a question for YOU. Aside from being deadly busy with work and other real-life issues in the past couple of years, I have also been quietly learning how to rip and work with HD. And I got ambitious in my first outing. I got the HD-DVD of Superman Returns, since the Blu-Ray has the deleted scenes in standard def while the HD-DVD had 'em in HD. So I got the firmware. I got the drive that could play and rip it, and I learned the tools and processes to convert from .EVO to .TS so it would be Blu-Ray ready.

The .TS files opened fine in Womble.

I re-did my original Superman Returns edit in Womble to match my version since I'm quite happy with what I did. (I'm going to stick with my original audio file for now rather than recreate that to the extreme for the sake of marginally better sound quality.) So I got it all ready to export and ... Womble apparently wants to re-encode the whole thing. The WHOLE thing. The big selling point of Womble has always been that it doesn't re-encode the parts that aren't changed, which is better than 99% of this edit (I have only one extra title card and one slo-mo fadeout while the rest is trims or reshuffling of scenes).

So, for anybody who's been working in Hi-Def, is there a way to get Womble to export the streams in a non-destructive way? Does the source video need to be set up differently? Or is this just a limitation of Womble? And if so, is there another tool that is as good as Womble for editing video that doesn't re-encode the non-changed parts?

Leaning on y'all for whatever you may know.

--ADM
 
I have no clue but perhaps I can suggest a work around.

Would it be possible to have womble process only the changed parts and leave the rest out of it.
And then somehow join the sections of video with another tool?
 
That's kinda what I'm looking for at this point, unless I'm missing something fundamental about how Womble and HD play together. I'm blown away that I could import the .TS files into Womble and edit with no problem, but then it won't export them as-is.

I'm still getting to know the HD formats and don't know how h264, MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 all come into this and, more importantly, what format this video is in or how to find out.

Gonna be spending some quality time at VideoHelp.com methinks.
 
No; at present Womble will re-encode the whole thing. There is nothing you can do to stop it, and I should not expect Womble will receive this kind of update any time soon - if ever.

I too was thinking about editing in HD, but I have refrained from buying a drive and learning all about ripping HD sources until I am sure I know of a program that can do what you are currently seeking. At present, I believe you would have to use Vegas and an external encoder to make an HD edit.

May I ask for what file size you are aiming for your final exported edit? If you are looking at a BD-25, I can understand the need to export a direct stream copy of the original video - with standard AC-3 audio? If you are aiming for an AVCHD on a DVD-9, then obviously the whole thing would have to be re-encoded anyway.
 
Definitely aming to export to BD-25. It should fit just fine without re-encoding as the whole thing is <20GB.
 
ADigitalMan said:
Definitely aming to export to BD-25. It should fit just fine without re-encoding as the whole thing is <20GB.
Click to expand...

Yeah; I thought that would be the case. It should be about that size. I don't really know what to suggest. :-(

All I know is that I have seen some extremely good x264 encodings, of both BD-25 and DVD-9 size. I suggest you just re-encode the whole video, just as people who edit SD content in Vegas do with CCE. You could make an AVCHD DVD-9 and a BD-25 version of your edits: that way more people would be able to watch them anyway.

For what it's worth, I have both a 7.87 GB (DVD-9 size) version of Adywan's Empire Strikes Back SE, in HD, and a 13.1 GB version, and the quality loss in the DVD-9 version is small IMO. I simply don't believe the option not to re-encode is available at present. If it is, I would love to hear about it!
 
I just had a mess around with this....and the quality is just PANTS! tones of pixels and very grainy.
 
sigh, I was hoping I could stop cringing when edits are exclusively done in womble. I guess I will have to continue to cringe... :x
 
Ghostcut said:
Now isn't that a funny coincidence, you asking about this...
Click to expand...

I don't get it, Ghostcut. This link just means Womble can edit HD, but the issue is one of re-encoding.

ThrowgnCpr said:
sigh, I was hoping I could stop cringing when edits are exclusively done in womble. I guess I will have to continue to cringe... :x
Click to expand...

Erm, are we all on the same page here? I take it AvP tried to edit and export HD files. The improvement with the main concept encoder is to do with standard definition isn't it? As far as I can tell, it should be an improvement, but either way it doesn't address ADM's problem, as far as I can see, as he is trying to prevent re-encoding of an HD video stream.

ADigitalMan said:
I'm still getting to know the HD formats and don't know how h264, MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 all come into this and, more importantly, what format this video is in or how to find out.
Click to expand...

Don't they just fit in as different compression methods? HD content can use MPEG-2 compression, but that was mostly used on early blu-ray releases. Terminator and Predator were MPEG-2, if I recall correctly. h.264 is just MPEG-4 part 10. If you are working from an HD-DVD, it is possible it was a VC-1 transfer - many HD-DVDs were.

As for working out which you are dealing with, have you tried opening the file in tsmuxer? It is probably a poor man's solution, but that's how I check many features of HD content.

EDIT: Yes; according to High Def digest, Superman Returns was VC-1. I am not quite sure what you did when you converted from .EVO to .ts. I take it that it was just a matter of changing the transport stream, rather than re-encoding?

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/146/supermanreturns.html
 
AvP said:
I just had a mess around with this....and the quality is just PANTS! tones of pixels and very grainy.
Click to expand...

hmmmm thats odd, i tried a small 2 min piece of MPEG2 video ripped directly from a dvd today at work, added a filter to it and reencoded it. the result looked absolutely gorgeous and was completely indistinguishable from the original.
 
Captain Khajiit said:
ThrowgnCpr said:
sigh, I was hoping I could stop cringing when edits are exclusively done in womble. I guess I will have to continue to cringe... :x
Click to expand...

Erm, are we all on the same page here? I take it AvP tried to edit and export HD files. The improvement with the main concept encoder is to do with standard definition isn't it? As far as I can tell, it should be an improvement, but either way it doesn't address ADM's problem, as far as I can see, as he is trying to prevent re-encoding of an HD video stream.
Click to expand...

I was specifically referring to the link ghostcut posted, and about the NEW version of Womble. I assumed that ADM was referring to the older version of Womble, and that the new one would be able to export HD as well as SD. Basically, what I meant was, the new version of womble isnt going to address a lot of the limitations of the older version of womble (which is many). In my eyes, the ONLY thing womble has going for it, is the smart rendering engine. Other than that it is extremely limited, and often (certainly not always, ADM is a good example) this shows in fanedits.
 
ThrowgnCpr said:
I was specifically referring to the link ghostcut posted, and about the NEW version of Womble. I assumed that ADM was referring to the older version of Womble, and that the new one would be able to export HD as well as SD. Basically, what I meant was, the new version of womble isnt going to address a lot of the limitations of the older version of womble (which is many). In my eyes, the ONLY thing womble has going for it, is the smart rendering engine. Other than that it is extremely limited, and often (certainly not always, ADM is a good example) this shows in fanedits.
Click to expand...

Ah! I would agree. I still don't see the relevance of the link to the HD discussion, because as far as I can see the Smart Rendering still only applies to SD, and the main concept encoder is just for SD MPEG-2, isn't it? Couldn't the old Womble do some HD anyway? I am pretty sure it could, and I don't see the change here. Womble will still re-encode the whole video stream for HD files.
 
my test was a hd ts file not dvd.

vlcsnap-2009-12-07-22h09m45s176.jpg
 
Yeah; that's what I thought you said. Man, that doesn't look good. -_-
 
wow "PANTS" is an understatement. That picture looks f*$@ing terrible!
 
and it takes along time to export too.
 
AvP said:
and it takes along time to export too.
Click to expand...

Did you have to leave it overnight, or was it longer? Can you frameserve HD content to an external encoder, or is HD editing in Womble a total waste of time?
 
AvP said:
and it takes along time to export too.
Click to expand...

yeah thats something i did find. 10 minutes to render a 2 minute clip using the old film filter. although that was on my crappy 'business' dual core work pc
 
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