The Hobbit [M4 Book Edit 2021] [4 Hours]

[M4_]

I mean, I would at least consider trying to cut it completely. It's an obvious visual inconsistency because their eyelines don't match.

It all depends on how much of a sucker for visual consistency you are, though. I always aim for a cut that's as close to an 'official release' look and feel as possible. But this particular scene is such a headache (as you know, I've struggled with it myself haha)

I mean, I have spent 4 years on this edit and am continuously trying to achieve the quality of an 'official release,' I don't think that has ever been a question. There are more things to consider than just eyelines, a fairly small detail. The overall structure of the scene is more important to me in this particular case.

Without the shot, Thorin is knocked to the ice, and nearly 60 seconds pass including a death of a main character, Azog is staring at an unknown person, before we see what the heck happened to Thorin, our main hero.

Now you are right there are 2 more shots I actually could potentially use, one which is a wider shot of Thorin before the Orc is right in front of him, the other is from legolas POV but it would feel kind of random to have that angle.

Regardless, none of this may end up mattering because

In your previous versions, there was much more footage of Thorin and Azog fighting before the Eagles showed up, including multiple parts in which Thorin fell down and had to struggle to get up. That way, when it cut back to him pinned down by Azog after the Eagles scene, it felt much more natural and self-explanatory. The footage you had included of the ice/flail fight felt like proper setup for it. With it gone and nothing that really works as a substitutionary setup, the scene just doesn't feel right/properly set up to me.



Fair enough. I guess for me, the problems with the stone flail bother me less than the problems with the other two options. Your last version of the Book Edit was almost perfect for me.

Regardless of whatever editing decisions you wind up going with, might you leave your previous version uploaded (with a version number to indicate that it's an older version) in addition to uploading your new one, so people can choose which one they prefer?

There will only be 1 version, so I will have to make it work. I am considering putting the ice fight back because you actually make a good point. It is only about 40 seconds long in my '23 version, the original inspiration to replacing it with a 2nd sad montage was: a) it's shorter by about 15-20 seconds when you factor in the re-using of the Bats shot b) I have lengthened Laketown & other moments so I desperately need to shorten somewhere else and c) it respected the book more. But if it's really going to ruin the Azog/Thorin moments I'm not sure.

 

[DonkeyKonga]

To be fair, I think eyelines aren't a *small* detail. These characters are nemesis. They should be looking eachother in the eye, if one shot suggest Azog standing far away, but Thorin looks as if he's very close that's something you can immediately tell.

I know you aim to make everything as good as possible. I'm not bashing it in any way, just stating where imo there's room for improvement. Your work is inspiring.

 

[M4_]

Yeah, every detail is important I agree. But in the grand scheme of things, having watched this on the big screen, I never even noticed the eye line being off. Again, don't think this will make a difference because that shot won't be used in the next upcoming test. I fear the 2nd sad montage may have to go. I will leave a poll up with both versions of the final battle and see what wins, I guess.

 

[DonkeyKonga]

Yeah, every detail is important I agree. But in the grand scheme of things, having watched this on the big screen, I never even noticed the eye line being off. Again, don't think this will make a difference because that shot won't be used in the next upcoming test. I fear the 2nd sad montage may have to go. I will leave a poll up with both versions of the final battle and see what wins, I guess.

You can always keep both, right? I made 2 versions of BotFA with the bear in the war and one without the bear. PJ made 2 versions of the hobbit as well, so no reason you can't have both

 

[M4_]

So after heavy consideration of all factors and suggestions, these are my new thoughts:

I tested putting back in the main ice duel, basically keeping a few of the tidied up bits elsewhere in Ravenhill but more or less was the same as '23 version. I ran back into these problems:

1 It's just too long for the scope of my battle. It makes me want to cut other parts of fighting (that are actually good) which I'd rather not. I can't keep everything, I have to make sacrifices because other parts of the edit have been lengthened, i.e. Laketown destruction (which was seriously needed). Even regardless of runtime, it still gives me this very minor off-balance feeling, which reminds me of all the feedback over the years from casual movie enjoyers that say the battle drags on.

2 I was willing to let the "2nd sad montage" go completely if having the ice duel was worth it, until I actually watched the battle without it. I feel like it was more beneficial to the overall connection we have to the battle, even if there are these small critiques you can make about it. Think big picture, It adds the emotional impact seeing the Dwarves losing again as the bats swarm them, showing the dead lady reminding us the brutality of war, and also reminding us of our other heroes (that it's not just the Azog vs Thorin show, we are all in this together and everyone is still fighting).

3 It highlights continuity issues, we see Orcrist for over a minute compared to just a few shots and the flail also comes out of nowhere

Now, removing the ice duel has also had its problem. As early as my first test clip this year,
- A: Removing it may make Azog feel less important
- B: Removing it may make Thorin's sacrifice less impactful
- C: Removing it may hurt "the flow" of the battle, not necessarily audio transitions but just the general perception

So, I think over the course of my test clips I have resolved the first two issues:
- A: We still keep all of Azog's build up as important including seeing him just do his thing as a commander and characters literally spell it out in dialogue (Thorin, Gandalf), 2 of our characters die either fighting towards him or because of him (Fili/Kili) which now gives Thorin a logical and emotional reason to kill him, and we still Thorin duel him. The full amount of fighting between the two is 2 minutes now, before it was around 2:45. Plenty of time to get engaged in the fighting.

- B: Thorin still charges out of the gate, still makes this risky plan to go to Ravenhill, charges in all by himself, fights this massive pale Orc, and then his final moment is still intact where he sacrifices himself to kill him, avenging both of his fallen kin. I think it's still plenty impactful.

However,
- C: What @hbenthow brought up was that Thorin getting knocked down (while still assumed off screen) may feel a bit off without the prior ice duel, which did a few things: established them fighting and established Thorin slipping

This leads me to my test clip:

• To fix "the flow," I was able to remove the cut-to-black even though I personally felt like it was fine. I do wish the shot of the dead woman was longer, maybe I could try to extend it with subtle slow motion
• A new intercut back to Azog/Thorin while we are in the Eagle montage, which establishes the two as fighting. This part is tricky, it might just be making things worse/confusing. I'm not sure if I prefer it, or prefer keeping everything off-screen until Thorin is knocked down
• I may not be able to fully establish Thorin slipping, but I have included a shot that shows him starting to slip on the ice which plants the seed in our head that we may be falling over soon
  • I do have a shot of Thorin slipping I could use, but it just feels kind of random
  • I don't have to use the ice close-up, I could use a close up of Azog shouting, but I felt like the ice shot was good to remind us about how they have been/will be fighting off screen
  • I can play around with the placement of this chunk, maybe could have it earlier after the first Beorn as a bear close up

It's never going to be fully perfect in my eyes, there's always some different angle you can critique for this part, unless you keep it mostly the same as PJ. Hopefully this is on right track.

 

[hbenthow]

This leads me to my test clip:

• To fix "the flow," I was able to remove the cut-to-black even though I personally felt like it was fine. I do wish the shot of the dead woman was longer, maybe I could try to extend it with subtle slow motion
• A new intercut back to Azog/Thorin while we are in the Eagle montage, which establishes the two as fighting. This part is tricky, it might just be making things worse/confusing. I'm not sure if I prefer it, or prefer keeping everything off-screen until Thorin is knocked down
• I may not be able to fully establish Thorin slipping, but I have included a shot that shows him starting to slip on the ice which plants the seed in our head that we may be falling over soon
  • I do have a shot of Thorin slipping I could use, but it just feels kind of random
  • I don't have to use the ice close-up, I could use a close up of Azog shouting, but I felt like the ice shot was good to remind us about how they have been/will be fighting off screen
  • I can play around with the placement of this chunk, maybe could have it earlier after the first Beorn as a bear close up

I think that this is a big improvement. The exact placement of some of the clips seems a bit off here and there, but I think it proves the concept.

Maybe it would help to play around with exactly what clips to use as well (maybe the clip of Thorin walking toward Azog and the one of Azog roaring at him and lunging forward could fit in there somewhere, for example, and maybe some other shots could be used too).

I find the closeup of broken ice with the sound of swords clashing in the background especially effective, since it sells that there's a fight happening even if we don't see the specifics. Plus, I think it smooths the transition from the shot of Eagles fighting bats right before it. The flow goes thusly: direct footage of the battle (Beorn fighting on the ground) - peripheral fighting further from the Battle epicenter (Eagles fighting bats in the air) - peripheral shot near but not directly on Thorin vs. Azog fight (ice shot) - direct footage of Thorin vs. Azog fight. I think that works really well.

The shot of Thorin starting to lose his balance on the ice at the very end doesn't seem to have enough impact, although I'm not sure whether this can be fixed. Maybe a different shot might work better, although I'm not sure.

Maybe a version of this shot with Azog cropped out:



Followed by this shot:



Regardless of which shot or shots work out best, I wonder if maybe a short piece of tense music could be used to sell the idea that him falling increases his danger?

However, another idea just came to me. What about cutting the ice shot from the earlier clip of Thorin and Azog fighting (possibly placing the Thorin/Azog clip directly after the first Beorn fight with his roar as the audio transition, maybe even cutting from Beorn's roar to a closeup of Azog roaring), then when later showing the clip of Thorin getting pinned down by Azog, including the ice closeup before it, but with a sound effect of Thorin falling in the background (a thud, grunting, etc)? It might even be possible to lengthen the ice closeup by playing it forwards and backwards, in order to have more to work with.

 

[M4_]

I think I like the ice shot right before he's knocked to the ground better, so I'm going back to that as I originally showed on vimeo. I always did have SFX for Thorin getting knocked down during that shot, but I also had generic fighting sounds so I've cleaned it up a bit and removed one shot. Ice w/ sounds -> Azog slashing shot -> Thorin on ground shot

Anyways, now it comes down to the intercut part. The first shot you showed I am already using, just the later half of it. The second shot I have tested around with and would like to use but needs to find a good fit. The soundtrack I like because it has a clear start and end, most of the tense music lasts a long time and is hard to fade, but I'd agree a piece that is more intense would potentially help. If I can end the inter cut off with a part that suggests Azog is going in for another attack, then cut back to Eagles, I think I will be set.

 

[M4_]

Coming close to the end, here. Neither of these are final, but this is the last area I want to improve before calling it quits with Ravenhill.

Use the shot of him starting to slip, establishes broken ice

Use the shot of him actually slipping, establishes that it's possible for him to get knocked down easily and establishes broken ice

Or v3 would be not just not have an intercut part like my vimeo version. After the Eagles/Beorn clips end, we would of course resume with just the ice shot and then Thorin getting knocked down in all 3 options. Yes, all 3 options will never be perfect, but I'm so happy with the rest of the battle, it checks all the boxes (given my personal goals), feels less drawn out/very slightly more book accurate, all the audio is flowing and the battle is easily understandable, so as long as I iron out this segment then we will be good to go.

-Some other misc changes recently, I removed the silly cartoon sound effect when Bombur falls on the Orc after kicking another Orc.
-I'm testing adding back the 2nd shot of Bilbo crying after Thorin's death, if it feels like it flows.
-I replaced Bofur's reaction shot with a Bilbo reaction shot when the Orc army arrives, just to keep us more focused on our little Hobbit.
-Some additional color grading improvements may come, was discussing some of Donkey's recent discoveries in PMs and I think it will look great.
-Tidied a bit of the sound mix when the Orc army arrives, not that it was bad, but now the whole thing includes ambient charging/marching sounds to help mask over the crunching of the rocks, whereas previously only a few marching audio clips were mixed in

 

[DonkeyKonga]

V2 is better imo. I'd suggest using the closeup of Bilbo falling in his back as the next shot when you cut back to the fight. (after azog jumpsnout of the ice)

If you don't use that shot people will always think: huh how did azog get on top of Thorin?

 

[M4_]

I experimented with that shot a lot, it's just unfortunate because Thorin is already fully on his back in that shot so the only benefit would be explaining the positioning of the 2 characters right off the bat. That said, I'll stop being lazy and try that again.

I had to fully redo the audio because the crushing of the ice had to go, and I tried to mask out all of the overly-obvious ice chunks flying through the air. Felt like it's not such a big deal to fully remove all of them though, because to be fair it can just be assumed it's part of the environment akin to water splashing. Maybe not so realistic if you over analyze the physics of how you would explain shards of ice flying around, but oh well.

I could actually extend the end of the shot a bit longer, I made it so short just because it felt kind of like an awkwardly long pause but maybe I made it too quick.

I think it's either this or closer to the way I had it on the vimeo version from a few days (a week?) ago

 

[hbenthow]

Coming close to the end, here. Neither of these are final, but this is the last area I want to improve before calling it quits with Ravenhill.

Use the shot of him starting to slip, establishes broken ice

Use the shot of him actually slipping, establishes that it's possible for him to get knocked down easily and establishes broken ice

I think the second version works a bit better, but for continuity, I think it might help to trim a few frames off of either the end of the preceding shot of Thorin spinning around after slashing Azog, or the very beginning of the shot of him falling (in which he is also sort of spinning or twisting), so that the degree to which he has spun around seems to match closer between the two shots. Also, I think an ice cracking sound effect right aas Thorin spins after slashing Azog could sell the idea that the ice cracked right at that moment from Thorin stepping on a weak spot.

Right now, the audio, including the change in msuic, feels a little rough (which might just be because it's a non-final version). I think the transition from Beorn to Azog would feel smoother if Beorn's roar would sort of fade or morph into Azog's roar.

I think it's either this or closer to the way I had it on the vimeo version from a few days (a week?) ago

I think this works very well.

 

[M4_]

I think the second version works a bit better, but for continuity, I think it might help to trim a few frames off of either the end of the preceding shot of Thorin spinning around after slashing Azog, or the very beginning of the shot of him falling (in which he is also sort of spinning or twisting), so that the degree to which he has spun around seems to match closer between the two shots. Also, I think an ice cracking sound effect right aas Thorin spins after slashing Azog could sell the idea that the ice cracked right at that moment from Thorin stepping on a weak spot.

Right now, the audio, including the change in msuic, feels a little rough (which might just be because it's a non-final version). I think the transition from Beorn to Azog would feel smoother if Beorn's roar would sort of fade or morph into Azog's roar.


I think this works very well.

- Sure, I can play around with the frames. I will definitely test adding an ice crack sound. The tricky thing with the frames is while I agree we want to match his position up, I found myself realizing a first time viewer will probably be looking at Azog and hardly even notice Thorin in the background, and the reason Thorin slips is I am trying to play it off that his sudden spin movement threw him off balance, if the audience never notices him spin around then it might feel very random.

- Perfect. I decided to extend the shot by 2 frames and will play the new knockdown clip on the big screen to see how it flows in the full battle, but I think we are set for this method

 

[M4_]

This will be my last clip, sorry for all the spam, but at least hben and donkey have been entertaining it.

If this still doesn't work, I will give it one more pass & my own judgement to make the final call--can only go in circles for so much. I am still willing to change the soundtrack keep in mind, just need to do a search but I wouldn't hold out too much hope.

 

[hbenthow]

I think the transition would feel fully seamless if Beorn's roar could be extended another second or so (or replaced with a different roar sound effect), overlapping with Azog's roar as it fades out, but other than that and maybe a different music choice for the clip if possible, I think this is very close.

I am still willing to change the soundtrack keep in mind

I think it might be possible to find something that fits better and helps the clip mesh better with the scene leading up to it. However, even if this is the best music you can find for it, I think it's still better to include the clip due to how it helps set up the later part with Thorin losing.

 

[DonkeyKonga]

This will be my last clip, sorry for all the spam, but at least hben and donkey have been entertaining it.

If this still doesn't work, I will give it one more pass & my own judgement to make the final call--can only go in circles for so much. I am still willing to change the soundtrack keep in mind, just need to do a search but I wouldn't hold out too much hope.

This is the one. Very good. I agree about the bear roar suggestion. But yeah, this is the best one so far.