The Hobbit: Into The Fire (A Purist Edition of Desolation of Smaug)

[ranger613]

I watched a 27 minute mashup of all (or much of) the DOS extended edition material. Wasn't very impressed, the Beorn stuff had really poor dialogue (a shame because the Beorn visit could use a little fleshing out), Thrain scene OK but I can't see using the full length of it, Lake Town maybe come clips but I can't remember anything significant. I think my favorite was the added Mirkwood scene - in the movie it felt like they passed through this expansive forest way too quickly. Bombur falling asleep due to the forest stream is a part of the book I remember well and seems appropriate in a purist cut. Overall from these movies I find myself wondering what the heck happened to the dialogue writing that was so good in LOTR.

Totally agree with you here. The extended scenes did not add anything special, and the dialogue is atrocious at times

 

[ranger613]

Hi all Tolkien fans, reopening this thread to start work on Version 2 of Into the Fire/ Fire of the Dragon. These have been great edits to make as I loved the collaboration on here and I figured I'd get the old Tolkien club's input on what needs and need not be done to change these edits. They were very successful thanks to you so I'm wary of changing/ "Lucas"ing them at all-- personally I think they work fine as they are, but it may be fun to see what happens. Here is a link to a youtube search, if you follow it and scroll down, you'll find a 27 min video of all the deleted scenes (I didn't include the direct link for obvious reasons)

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=desolation+of+smaug+extended+scenes&spfreload=1

So, I have the EE now and here are my thoughts on the scenes and what to do with them: (I put in bold yellow scenes I may reinsert)

1. Thorin's flashback of Thrain-- not going to include this, as it is yet more fluff and is part of the 'Azog/Thorin arc' which is cut in most edits
2. Gandalf introducing dwarves to Beorn-- this scene was very average, the humor is centered around the dwarves. It looks very fake though and the editing is crazy with inexplicably quick cuts which look unnatural. The dialogue is quite terrible (as kellenpure pointed out). I think the original at the breakfast table was fine and will be leaving this scene out.
3. Beorn discussing the high fells and the witch king-- this scene was ok I thought and I could see including this into either ITF or FOD (I'd cut the Galadriel voiceover and shots of the witch king, cut just before the flashback). Either way it does not add anything significant either than explain why Gandalf decides to go to the fells of all places
4. The party crossing the stream in mirkwood-- this scene I'm thinking of adding back into ITF. I'm not sure if the 'bad luck to shoot the stag' should be kept in or not. I'm mixed about the scene where everyone is wailing drunkenly and swooning while Bilbo flicks the web strands.
5. Guards searching for Bard/dwarves-- does not add anything, no tension nothing. Not including it.
6. Stephen Fry eating testicles-- again, the movie's about Bilbo, don't think this adds anything. Not including it
7. Bilbo vouching for Thorin-- Is brief and inconsequential, and awkward. Not including it as scene works better without it.
8. Sick dwarves begging the Master for help-- not including.
9. Rabid Thrain in Dol Guldur-- I honestly didn't like these scenes. The scenes tried to jam to much material into a tight timeframe. The scenes were interesting but not essential. Including them in either cut may be confusing for anyone not paying close attention to Unexpected Journey. Its the moment where your friend/girlfriend/wife goes "Who's that?" and you have to explain its Thorin's dad. There was more tension with Gandalf alone in Dol Guldur. Regardless, it may be fun to replace the solo Gandalf in FOD with Thrain scenes and leave solo Gandalf in ITF, just to have more variation-- this is something I might do.

Well those are my thoughts, hope to get soem feedback from the community and will temper the edit accordingly (if anything is needed at all?). Thanks very much!

Cheers,
Kris

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

I haven't purchased the EE yet, though im sure I will. I did watch the 27 minute video though. I agree that taken alone the scenes don't add much. I've always felt that the EEs worked more for pacing than anything else, with the exception of TTT which I felt a lot of necessary character development was re-integrated. With DOS, it always felt like least standalone film of the 5 so far. Clearly the molten gold crap was intended to give that film a denouement of sorts. With ITF, you've created a better film, IMO, but also one that feels even less like its own film. So perhaps adding some things in could help in that regard, but I'm not sure how. I think the Beorn and Gandalf scene (scene 3 in your rundown) could definitely be re-integrated. The Thrain stuff and flashbacks might work as well depending on if they serve any purpose in the next film. Perhaps it would be best to see what happens with that one in a month before getting too far down the path with a v2. The Laketown stuff was among my least favorite parts of DoS (along with the barrel chase and molten gold crap) but ITF now has very little Bard. Perhaps getting more of him in would help as I'm guessing he'll be a major player in the next film. I hope that helps. As someone who doesn't know anything about how the next film will play out, I feel I need to see it before feeling confident in any changes.

 

[MackerelSkyLtd]

Good. Lord. Two Wilhelm screams in 27 minutes? For serious deaths? Go home, P.J., you're drunk.

Beorn is a weirdo in the film, and the dwarf introduction scene just serves to remind you how much better Tolkien was at writing comedy than the screenwriters are. I love that scene in the book, but the way they've changed all the characters, it just doesn't work. Especially if they've been chased by Beorn one scene earlier in Pointless Chase Scene #532.

Beorn and Gandalf in the woods is meh. Try using it, and if it messes with pacing, then show it no mercy.

I would say the Mirkwood scenes are the best bits of the Extended Edition footage, and Mirkwood needed more emphasis in the movie anyway. In the Theatrical cut, it felt like they just breezed through in a day or two. I'm not 100% keen on the way the White Stag scene plays out, but I'd go for keeping anything with Bilbo that doesn't outright suck.

The less of "Ha, Medieval guys were gross" in the film, the better. That goes double for Steven Phry. I kept thinking he was going to break into a medieval cooking show sketch, discussing the fried nuts recipe with discount Grima. "I wonder...I wonder if there's some ancient recipe which forbids Bard from roasting my nuts in a white sauce...clearly they are better slowly fried with tarragon!" "Almost certainly, sire...I'll write one immediately! Bow bow, scrape scrape, did you notice we're baddies...?" Ugh. The Desolation of Subtlety.

I liked Thrain in Dull Backdoor more than I thought I would. However, that's mostly down to the Gandalf-Thrain interactions, and as you say, it's a pretty random scene. The more I think about it, the less it makes sense. Also, for us to recognize Thrain you would need to include Video Game Cutscene from Extended Exposition Scene 1 (Gandalf-Thorin), which I hate. Besides, in the theatrical cut I found the Gandalf subplots tedious enough, and just wanted to get back to Bilbo whenever they got in the way.


By the way, does anyone else think Beorn's line to Gandalf at 6:50 sounds like "Ewoks would not give up" instead of orks? I'm now thinking Frink needs to edit these, complete with Duke Dooku voicing Saruman....

 

[Ando]

Hello ranger,

I haven't seen your edited version of the DOS yet, but I have also been eager to edit this whole trilogy! There are certain scenes that can be cut with relative ease I imagine?! And some that are tricky to do so due to music etc. I'm definitely in favour of cutting most of the scenes you say you have in your edit, but how on earth have you managed to remove Smaug being covered in molten gold as he leaves Erebor to attack Lake Town though?!

Ando

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

Hello ranger,

I haven't seen your edited version of the DOS yet, but I have also been eager to edit this whole trilogy! There are certain scenes that can be cut with relative ease I imagine?! And some that are tricky to do so due to music etc. I'm definitely in favour of cutting most of the scenes you say you have in your edit, but how on earth have you managed to remove Smaug being covered in molten gold as he leaves Erebor to attack Lake Town though?!

Ando

Ranger can certainly give you more detail, but the short answer is that through some clever cuts there is only a very brief glimpse of Smaug with the molten gold on him and he's recolored it to try to make it appear to simply be the sheen of moonlight. If you're very familiar with the theatrical version, it is still noticeable. But my wife, who hadn't seen the theatrical version, didn't even notice.

 

[Ando]

Hello ranger,

I've not seen your version yet, but I'm looking forward to seeing it So you've kept the High Fells subplot in?! I was fine with it in the theatrical release at first, until I realised that that the Witch King Of Angmar & the other 8 ringwraiths were neither living nor dead. So how the heck could they have been buried??? This was made up by PJ without thinking it through thoroughly no doubt...Surely Gandalf going straight to Dolguldor is enough as it is?! It would also speed up the subplot narrative.

 

[ranger613]

Ranger can certainly give you more detail, but the short answer is that through some clever cuts there is only a very brief glimpse of Smaug with the molten gold on him and he's recolored it to try to make it appear to simply be the sheen of moonlight. If you're very familiar with the theatrical version, it is still noticeable. But my wife, who hadn't seen the theatrical version, didn't even notice.

Thanks man I agree with you, will wait for the theatrical part three before releasing a v2, seems like the best move. Cheers man

 

[ranger613]

Hello ranger,

I've not seen your version yet, but I'm looking forward to seeing it So you've kept the High Fells subplot in?! I was fine with it in the theatrical release at first, until I realised that that the Witch King Of Angmar & the other 8 ringwraiths were neither living nor dead. So how the heck could they have been buried??? This was made up by PJ without thinking it through thoroughly no doubt...Surely Gandalf going straight to Dolguldor is enough as it is?! It would also speed up the subplot narrative.

Hi Ando, Moe is absolutely right, just took some recutting and regrading to modify it. I think the edit flows quite well actually and is my own go to for part 2, while kerr and manbailee my go-tos for part 1. I think the best thing is to just go with your gut as to what works and does not for You, that's how I do it. If you do it with the goal of making a version You enjoy then I feel you'll be creatively satisfied.

 

[yoshif8tures]

Thanks ranger! What you're doing is brilliant! Turning PJs turd into something far more watchable. I think I'll wait till you release your version of the last film and skip the theatrical cut since PJ has declared himself unfit to direct a decent film anymore.

 

[ranger613]

Thanks ranger! What you're doing is brilliant! Turning PJs turd into something far more watchable. I think I'll wait till you release your version of the last film and skip the theatrical cut since PJ has declared himself unfit to direct a decent film anymore.

Haha much thanks my friend!!

 

[kellenpure]

Hello ranger,

I've not seen your version yet, but I'm looking forward to seeing it So you've kept the High Fells subplot in?! I was fine with it in the theatrical release at first, until I realised that that the Witch King Of Angmar & the other 8 ringwraiths were neither living nor dead. So how the heck could they have been buried??? This was made up by PJ without thinking it through thoroughly no doubt...Surely Gandalf going straight to Dolguldor is enough as it is?! It would also speed up the subplot narrative.

Have to agree here, Gandalf should only go to check out Dol Guldur - the High Fells subplot is horrible. How the heck do you wrap up a wraith that wears a powerful ring and transport it to a dungeon for safekeeping? It makes the ringwraiths seem so beatable and less mysterious, and this would only compound when watching LOTR right after the Hobbit films.

 

[hasmak]

Hi Ranger
I just got the EE, very disappointed with it.
The only parts that can be used are the passage through mirkwood and Beorn conversation with Gandalf.
I don't think they would add much to your edits, the edits are fine as is and it would be a waste of time.
I agree with Moe, you should wait for part three and then decide if a v2 or a 3 in 1 is worth while.
Cheers

 

[ranger613]

Have to agree here, Gandalf should only go to check out Dol Guldur - the High Fells subplot is horrible. How the heck do you wrap up a wraith that wears a powerful ring and transport it to a dungeon for safekeeping? It makes the ringwraiths seem so beatable and less mysterious, and this would only compound when watching LOTR right after the Hobbit films.

Hi Ranger
I just got the EE, very disappointed with it.
The only parts that can be used are the passage through mirkwood and Beorn conversation with Gandalf.
I don't think they would add much to your edits, the edits are fine as is and it would be a waste of time.
I agree with Moe, you should wait for part three and then decide if a v2 or a 3 in 1 is worth while.
Cheers

Thanks for the input guys, I completely agree with you. I like the edits as they are for now, and I'll shelve the v2's for now. In any case, my friend [MENTION=27729]Lord_Elrond_St.Hubbins[/MENTION] has completed a new cut of it, and I'm eager to watch it! It'll be good to see another editors take on it. Cheers, Kris

 

[Ando]

Hey Kellenpure,

It isn't that the High Fells aren't atmospheric or mysterious, they definitely are in that sense! But if Gandalf is to leave the company, as written by Tolkien, there wasn't need for this 'add on' subplot in any case was there. I don't think PJ had his heart in these films...Del Toro walked out & left him in the thick of it, but I also think he has become a bit too similar to George Lucas. Not quite as bad...but similar!

 

[Ando]

Ah I see. I don't hate Legolas or Tauriel being in the trilogy, I actually think Evangaline is very good in the role in all fairness to her. Are you planning to edit them out in the Battle Of Five Armies?! Or would you keep some action sequences in from them to be a part of the Elves of Mirkwood army?!

 

[ranger613]

Hi yoshif8tures, haha while its not the worst review on an edit I've gotten (was for technical reasons, I yanked that movie and abandoned it), the Fire of Dragon review was the lowest. First off, thanks for downloading and watching man, always appreciated. But I think the points you made are things you dislike with the original movie which I cannot fix-- I can only cut as much as I can out; the Hobbit will always be what it is: a disappointment-- best I can do is make it more palatable by hopefully improving the pacing and trimming things. While I could have completely cut out Beorn and Mirkwood altogether, the movie would then be about 45 minutes, and more importantly, would deviate even more from the books than Peter Jackson did, because those things did happen in the book, they were just executed really poorly. If I may make a suggestion? my Into the Fire edit does not change anything in terms of plot other than cut out even more-- there's no crazy barrel fight, and there's no dragon fight at the end-- it still has the same Beorn, Mirkwood and Laketown scenes, so I would maybe skip it? Because it would be more of the same and I can't fix the problems you refer to. Even though many people are disappointed with the way PJ handled these movies, I'm still glad they're at least still making Tolkien's stuff--they're very flawed but still fixable, and I'm sorry this edit didn't work for you. I always appreciate the feedback tho, and thanks again for watching my friend! Cheers, Kris

 

[yoshif8tures]

You're right. My beef is with the original and my complaints were more with that than you're edit. You did a good job and I wouldn't have noticed any differences if that's the only edit I saw.
So I'm not gonna watch the third film and will wait for the edit of that since I know that it's gonna be a disappointment too.

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

I think it's a fair review and you made clear your gripes are with the source rather than the edit. I agree with a lot of what you say and definitely felt DoS was going to be almost impossible to save when I saw it in the theater. But I also think a lot of the scenes of the LotR trilogy (both book and movie) are scenes that are technically unnecessary. Many scenes do little to advance the plot or character development. Mostly it feels like padding to make the journey feel longer if you really think about it. For whatever reason, in the books and those films, it just doesn't FEEL as pointless. As I always say in these threads, I haven't read the Hobbit. But I felt Into The Fire saved DoS as much as could be hoped for. It doesn't create a decent standalone movie as I felt the Arkenstone did with AUJ. But again, there was less to work with here. I, too, am hopeful that a solid four hour experience can be created once the third installment is released.

 

[Sigma957]

Is there a way to remove the white orc's prominence from the film? To be fair, it looks more like Killer Croc than an white Orc.

Also I think Smaug breaking out of the mountain should be cut. What happens in your edit is that you can clearly see him shake off the gold as he spreads his wings. It's also very clearly present as Smaug breaks through.

One last observation; Gandalf should not encounter Sauron. Peter Jackson was trying too hard to tie this to a trilogy that hadn't been invented yet when Hobbit was written.

Later on for my own amusement, I might try to connect all 3 Hobbit films into just one film, excising all the non-book sequences.