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stereo vs surround, your views.

tremault

tremault

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what are your views on this?

personally, I'm a bit stuck when it comes to audio. I wear earplugs due to noise anxiety and I don't have access to a surround sound system, so I find the prospect of working on surround to be quite overwhelming. as such, my edits will generally only be in stereo, unless i am doing a pure edit with no audio changes.

I realise that surround is pretty important to many people though so I sometimes wonder if I am missing out massively.

how important is surround sound in the general scheme of things?
 
Same here.

I dont care for surround sound, don't have an equipment for it and I use it in my edits only when there is no need for anything more than basic audio editing.
 
There are two facets here, input and output. The source used, and the end result.

If you're not doing much with sound replacement, only fades and transitions, your source could be stereo without many or maybe even any drawbacks. But if you're doing even kind of extensive changes, you're going to want the freedom that truly separated channels allow.

I am less opinionated about output, whether stereo or surround or both (or mono), do what you want, just do it correctly. Surround mixed down to stereo poorly or incorrectly (for example if the exported file has dialogue only on left and music only on right, or in my case all of my tracks coming through ALL speakers even though everything was assigned to specific speakers I missed something else) due to bugs or user error, is something I've run into and had to learn how to fix.

So, check your output before showing it to people, haha. That's my takeaway advice.
 
I don't have a surround system, but I won't edit without a surround track. I also export a surround track and leave it up to the user to downmix it if they desire. Editing in stereo limits the ability to do the specfic thigns I enjoy and try to accomplish sound wise, so I don't even bother with stereo editing. If you isolate channels and match levels, you'll get a pretty accurate mix most of the time. LIke addiesin said, you'll need to make sure the mapping is correct and that the NLE you are using isn't messing up the order or assignment of your mix. In short, Surround is a must for Input and optional for output, imho.
 
I'm working on separate channels quite often, but final output is usually 2.0 - with some exceptions - if it's all about replacing or removing a sound from one channel it may be still 5.1 but when I'm re-scoring something, it will be 2.0.
 
I haven't released an edit in surround yet, but most of my edits are of older films only available in mono anyway. Jason and The Argonauts will be my first surround edit just because it's there and available and why not? I worked in surround with source code, but didn't have a surround system at the time to test it on, so the edit is only in stereo. With The Hidden, I had a near-final draft that I exported in surround, but I decided to keep it in stereo, because there were one or two transitions I couldn't get to sound right in 5.1 but sounded fine in stereo.

Working in surround just makes things easier for yourself. But i personally wouldn't release in surround unless you have the equipment to test it on. I have seen some fanedits with bad surround tracks, and that might go unnoticed by many who downmix to stereo, but for those who don't, it's pretty jarring. In general, I would rather an edit have a surround track - but if that surround track is going to be mixed wrong and expose cuts, i'd rather it was just in stereo.
 
I could not have completed my Spilt Unbreakable Glass edit in stereo. A vital scene required separation of channels in order to replace the score...

Having said that, many people value it as an output, so if you are doing straightforward edits and you suite can handle surround, edit in surround. There should not be anything unsual for you to take into account. When you play back on just stero equipment it will just output a stereo signal since the additional information is encoded for surround decoder equipment to recognize, but if it snot surround equipment, then stereo prevails with no impact on your ability to work and deliver your edit.

This feature of Dolby surround was necessary when it was introduced in order for it to be backward compatible with the vast majority of 2 channel home setups that were in situ when domestic 5:1 surround was finally introduce on VHS (yes there were some), then DVD and broadcast TVs...( which were again predominantly stereo).
 
For input, I prefer surround, but as I don't have a surround system I always render in stereo. Audio editing in surround is a lot easier.
 
Question for you all who release stereo but work in surround, do you do anything to the levels to accommodate the transition? Like boosting center channel and lowering the back left and back right?
 
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I read this thing once that said lower channel x and y by half and .... and I think it was just wrong. my dialogue has been really quiet and it's bugged the hell out of me. today I opened up my audacity project with all the 5.1 tracks in it and it seems the dialogue is pretty decent levels.... so that thing I read was wrong. I think we just have to listen to it and see how it sounds. I decided to downmix the left and right channels with the bass channel, as one track and export the centre channel as a second track, because it seems like the dialogue is clearer in the centre channel and the foley and music is clearer in the other channels.
I'd be interested to learn other people's approaches.
 
Sometimes I'll normalize the center track to bring the volume up without it clipping. I have created a 5.1 from a 2.0 mix before and I believe the rule I followed was FL/FR= -18 to -24db, RL/RR = -30 to -36db, LFE = -12 to -18 db. Again the actual values are vary based onthe base levels and the adjustments to such that I make.
 
If you mix down to stereo… it’s important to realise that Dolby Digital decoders (licences codecs, which are most since you wouldn’t be able to rip or edit) are equipped with diwnmixing to distribute encoded channels to speakers automatically. This includes such functions as playing surround information through the front speakers if surround speakers are unavailable, and distributing the center channel to left and right if no center speaker is available. When outputting to a 2ch down mix, the encoding behaves as if there are only 2 speakers, unless you change any of the channel levels… if you do, the encoding algo will then downmix the levels you set and that can lead to odd or muddy stereo mix… so rip and edit in 5:1, mix down to stereo… but of course , you don’t need to cuz 5:1 will out put to stereo cleanly if the rear speakers are not there…

So edit in surround and don’t touch the levels… and everyone should be happy…
 
Agreed Wraith, I don't see much of a reason other than filesize for why a 5.1 edit would be exported as stereo, because it's always nice to have that option for surround sound if your viewers are capable of it, and even if they aren't the audio will automatically be down mixed properly for stereo viewers. This happens all the time, even when you a watch 5.1 movie on headphones, the audio will still sound pretty good and well balanced. The one thing to be more careful of is codec, I used to have DTS-HD MA in my digital files but apparently some new Samsung TVs don't accept that (??) so I had to supply an alternate AC3 track and I ended up switching the main one to normal DTS for filesize purposes.
 
When I re-score something I'm using only Central channel converted to stereo + added some SFX. So it won't work as proper 5.1 anyway and exporting as such makes no sense.
The rest of the audio, which isn't re-scored is usually converted from 5.1 to 2.0 and is edited as such (to match volume with parts based on central channel only).
 
Unequivocally 5.1 surround. Stereo limits the edit itself and limits flexibiity and enjoyment for the viewer. The future, however, is full 3D sound in 2 channels.

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addiesin said:
Question for you all who release stereo but work in surround, do you do anything to the levels to accommodate the transition? Like boosting center channel and lowering the back left and back right?
Click to expand...

In the past I have A-B'd the downmixed 5.1 with the stereo to check if anything sounds off, but generally kept it as it is with the woofer track muted to prevent any muddiness.
 
The Scribbling Man said:
In the past I have A-B'd the downmixed 5.1 with the stereo to check if anything sounds off, but generally kept it as it is with the woofer track muted to prevent any muddiness.
Click to expand...
Generally the subwooffer information will be ignored if playback is on Stereo equipement, but if muted on a downmix, it will not be present if anyone playsback on surround equipment leading to to a bright even shrill playback for some....I'd suggest not touching any channels and let peoples setup do the work (unless doing complex audio rebuilds).
 
^^ Maybe my choice of wording was poor. I don't mean for the surround track. If it's 5.1 audio i don't mute any channels. I'm talking about a stereo-only track that I have made from a 5.1 workflow. That will only ever playback as stereo, and the audio from the woofer is being incorporated into those 2 channels unless I mute it. A stereo track has no need for the low frequencies designed for a subwoofer. By comparing to the stereo track, I mean listening to my exported stereo fanedit audio (originally a 5.1 mix) and comparing it with the original film's stereo audio track, to see if there are any major or problematic differences.
 
I need to learn how to rebuild a 5.1 final when rescoring, that is my limiting factor now.

Starting with 5.1 is certainly key, but creating a quality final product that builds new 5.1 final, when I have center channel gaps for dialogue changes and stereo score replacement, keeps me releasing my edits in full 5.1.

Most of my audience never complains, but I know I need to step it up in this realm next.
 
As an end-user here I prefer surround where it's available. Most of my playback I have surround set up. I won't pass on an edit if it's in stereo though. What can become an issue as has been mentioned already is if the track levels get wonky; dialogue too low becomes an irritation as I'm constantly fiddling with the volume.
 
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