LOST - All Answers Revealed!

[reave]

Agreed. Lost was great through the majority of the series, and I think the finale worked just fine.

It's always nearly impossible to end a TV show to the satisfaction of viewers, as it is the end point of what has been a ever continuing story. We know real life isn't like that. The story doesn't just end, it goes on.

 

[Q2]

Another +1. I think a lot of people don't realize that that it's very hard to plot out a five season show completely. There are too many unforeseen circumstances that could put up a roadblock in your grand scheme. You have to allow some wiggle room. Does it always work? No. But it's the nature of the beast. Overall I think Lost succeeded in what they set out to do. Did all questions get answered? No. But you don't need that. It's good to have some questions left unanswered.

And, for the record, I thoroughly enjoyed Battlestar Galactica as well. Even the ending.

 

[Sunarep]

Biggest retcon and most obvious sign that they hadn't planned it out remains adam and eve.

If you put in a scene to say: "this is the scene to show that we planned it since the beginnign"
then have the mystery of adam and eve be resolved by introducing a new character to become eve and another character who appeared after 5 seasons could be called cheating... but then make a time-error that is not a few years but centuries just shows that they changed their original story.

sure you can always justify the time issue of adam and eve by saying "jack is no archaeologist" but still, the scene was made to show that you had a plan so this scene should also fit with the explanation and not require further fanboy bugfixes

 

[reave]

Agree with Q2. I like that some questions were left unanswered. It leaves some mystery to a show that was supposed to be mysterious and it leaves the possibility of a later movie....

Same with BSG. I'm mostly satisfied with the whole series, end and all.

 

[Neglify]

All great points made here by slime, Q2 and Sunarep. Slime, out of curiosity, have you checked out Drigg's LOST edits?

 

[TomH1138]

Sorry, but I completely disagree with all the loving on Lost, particularly the "How dare the fans be disgusted?" part of it.

If the producers had said right from the beginning that the show was just being made up as they went along, and that we shouldn't think about it too hard, then no harm, no foul.

But week after week on the podcast, they said that there was an answer for everything. They said to pay attention to the clues, because they would add up.

And the clues didn't add up. Nothing added up. The writers didn't even try to make a coherent story. They just lied about it for years and years. And then they have the nerve to play the "How dare anyone pick on us?" card.

If the writers tell me that they're making a slapstick comedy and then they give me a historical tragedy, then yeah, I'm gonna be puzzled by that. If they tell me they're making a nature documentary and they give me a Broadway musical, then I'm going to say, "What was that all about?"

And if they're making a mystery, and they tell me to pay attention to the clues, and they don't make even a marginal attempt to make even the big questions make any sense at all, then yeah, I'm gonna be pretty hacked off at them for wasting six years of my time.

Mind you, it's not like I think about it every day and care all that much anymore. And if you got greater entertainment value out of it than I did, then more power to you.

It's the whole "What's the matter with the fans? How dare they expect resolution from a mystery?" argument that I just don't get.

OK, now my rant is over.

 

[geminigod]

I agree with what Tom said in essence and wish to take it a bit further.

Here is a nice interview that is somewhat ambiguous about whether they really had the conclusion to that story planned from the start. http://www.annarbor.com/entertainment/lost-former-writer/. My cursory internet search failed to find the article I was actually looking for that I read years ago in which another ex-writer claimed the producers were clueless about the shows long term direction and the writing staff were just making everything up as they went. Disgruntled lying employee? Maybe...

Whether or not the ending was planned, they clearly had to make up a bunch of stuff along the way to extend the length of the show. Is this normal for a concept show? Yes. The more seasons you have to drag a story out for a successful show, the harder it becomes to maintain a consistent plot with a satisfying ending. Is it reasonable for fans to get annoyed anyway? Yes. Honestly I'm not sure which would be worse. A) They planned that lame ending from the start which implies poor artistic decisions, or B) The writers were just trying to make the best of the hand they were dealt in the business they are in, which is to hook viewers for high ratings over as many seasons as possible.

Regardless of whether the ending was planned at the beginning or not, Abrams is not known for inspiring endings. Lost is the poster child for this, but it is true of almost everything he has ever done, including movies. Fringe is his latest casualty. I guess you could say Abrams is more about the journey. He has an amazing knack for creating compelling characters and playing on audience expectations. This is his focus and wisely so from a ratings standpoint with television. The tradeoff is he seems to have little loyalty for his creations and little regard for how they might end. I think the most brilliant thing about Abrams is his skills as a businessman. By the time the final seasons of a show air, Abrams has long since moved on to other new projects.

Lost is a very important show for academic cinematic study (like it or hate it) because the tension always was based on new questions instead of answers and proper conclusions to story threads, way more so than any other show I have ever seen (including Battlestar Galactica). No show has ever pushed this method of storytelling and hooking viewers further than Lost did.

IMO at its heart Lost was a character drama piece. On this level the show succeeded brilliantly, but you can't blame us plot lovers for being upset by the weak main story. You can't blame us for feeling like we just got teased by a girl for six years only to have her break up with us the night before the wedding. Sure, maybe we should have seen it coming five years earlier, but we held out hope and remained optimistic to the bitter end. For us this show made us realize just how devious this question-hooking technique can be as an escape from having to write good plots. General audience awareness has become heightened of this carrot trick since Lost ended while watching other shows. Lost made us yearn for plot-based dramas with less tricks and more intelligence, creativity, & artistic honesty that hooks the audience with good answers more-so than endless questions.

 

[ssj]

good points, tom & gem. my wife was thoroughly engrossed by the first couple seasons of abrams's Alias and Felicity, and she lost interest in the remainders b/c things fell apart. dumb plotting. characters being out of character.

i don't care much whether the writers and producers of Lost had a solid ending in mind since the outset. i accept that "winging it" is integral to writing for tv, especially if the show lasts more than a season.

but whether or not they had the grand arc planned out, the sloppy execution--evident in scene after scene of senselessness, generic dialogue that went nowhere and seemed to be cryptic not because it contained genuine mystery but b/c the writers were lost themselves--made for frustration, not entertainment, not some sort of cerebral or spiritual exercise. just an endless WTF, WTF, WTF.

fortunately, i invested very little of my time in this show--just enough to satisfy my curiosity about this bit of pop culture.

 

[geminigod]

PS: I didn't get Inception.

 

[T-HOPE]

I love Lost. It reminds me a of a good time. However, I really dislike the last season, as it spends way too much time in an uninteresting flashsideway which turns out some kind of limbo/afterlife. I'm interested in that. Why didn't they spend more time on the island to properly explain a lot more stuff? Season 6 spends a lot of time in a temple which eventually doesn't mean anything, it felt more lik a showfiller.

Jaco and the Men In Black more felt like a deus ex machina. The last episode of season 5 had me really impatiently waiting to learn more about these 2 figures. However, (adult) Jacob is portrayed in season 6 as some kind of child, the way he reacts and does things. He doesn't come off like some smart all-knowing guy with a bigger masterplan like he was portrayed in the last episode of season 5. Men In Black as the smoke monster and Christian is really a disappointment, specially since it contradicts some other things established earlier in the show (MIB not being able to cross the water, yet he appears in the freighter and to Jack when he's off the island - I don't believe it was just Jack's hallucination or whatever). I really loved Christian and when he appeared in the show, the mystery increased. Yet him being the MIB was a really letdown and felt more like the writers had to explain something, so why not make him the smoke monster?
Then indeed not revealing Walt's special powers and the reason behind it, or why Aaron was so important. The importance of Charles Widmore. He was so important for the island, and then he suddenly dies in the most anti-climatic way ever.

I don't think the writers planned it they way they want us to believe they did. I really do think they made up stuff on the fly. Ofcourse, some things can't be counted in for (Mr Eko leaving, as he was about to have a bigger story arc).

This article describe also a few problems that I have with the show:
http://io9.com/5827048/jj-abrams-wants-your-ideas-for-how-lost-should-have-ended


For me, the best part of Lost was season 1 till 3. Season 4 and 5 were okay, but season 6 was a major letdown.
And still this show has a very good place in my heart.

 

[theslime]

IMO at its heart Lost was a character drama piece. On this level the show succeeded brilliantly, but you can't blame us plot lovers for being upset by the weak main story. You can't blame us for feeling like we just got teased by a girl for six years only to have her break up with us the night before the wedding. Sure, maybe we should have seen it coming five years earlier, but we held out hope and remained optimistic to the bitter end. For us this show made us realize just how devious this question-hooking technique can be as an escape from having to write good plots. General audience awareness has become heightened of this carrot trick since Lost ended while watching other shows. Lost made us yearn for plot-based dramas with less tricks and more intelligence, creativity, & artistic honesty that hooks the audience with good answers more-so than endless questions.

I'm mostly fine with this type of criticism. I personally thought the resolve-one-plot-by-introducing-two-new-plots storytelling was well done, and I like mysteries. All the important ones were solved by the end anyway. I certainly don't think setting up big questions like OMG JACK GOT OFF THE ISLAND is a devious way of escaping from writing good plots - I think it IS a good plot. And personally I loved the ending, and I found the main story pretty strong apart from some unfortunate detours (like Sun not being able to speak, and some weird pacing in the Temple scenes).

The only ones I "blame" (as you say) are the ones who claim it made no sense (it did; get over it), and who claim that making up new plot points during production is somehow a crime - even though historical examples of positive changes made mid-series are too numerous to mention (Star Wars and Twin Peaks being two obvious ones).

And the clues didn't add up. Nothing added up. The writers didn't even try to make a coherent story. They just lied about it for years and years. And then they have the nerve to play the "How dare anyone pick on us?" card.

Chill out, man. IMO most of it added up. I can actually explain most of it to you, if you want. I wasn't being facetious when I said "Ask me anything". I meant it. If you seriously think that nothing added up, then you should really take me up on my offer. And if I'm being harsh now, it's because saying nothing added up is a statement that's demonstrably untrue.

It's the whole "What's the matter with the fans? How dare they expect resolution from a mystery?" argument that I just don't get.

I'm definitely not making this argument, if that's what you're implying. If it is, your whole basic premise is wrong. The fact is this: I expected resolution from a mystery - and I GOT IT. Which is obviously a different beast altogether. If you're basing your criticism on the alleged fact that Damon and Carlton were lying to you, I don't know what to tell you. Saying they lied when a lot of viewers were happy with the answers they got doesn't really compute, imo. And btw, I think some of the statements from them that you don't like stem from their being flooded with "I WANT SIX YEARS OF MY LIFE BACK!!" nonsense every day for months. Poor guys. They just tried to write the best show they could, you know. They took no personal pride in fooling people.

 

[Neglify]

I wasn't being facetious when I said "Ask me anything".

Okay, two trains are coming at each other at sixty miles an hour, one from Chicago, one from Los Angeles...

 

[theslime]

Short version:

Legitimate criticism:
- "I didn't like the way the end was handled, like introducing a 2000 years old feud as a way of explaining the series" (perfectly understandable, and it could be argued (as T-HOPE does) that it's a bad case of deux ex machina)
- "I found the way the characters dodged asking real questions about what the island was a badly written stalling tactic" (understandable)
- "Too much time was spent on soap opera bits and slo-mo scenes of people crying" (understandable, although you really should have stopped watching sometime around episode 1x15 if this bothered you)
- "The Christian/Smokey deal is either nonsensical or too dense to actually understand" (understandable)
- "The Flash-sideways was a cringe-worthy attempt at providing a happy ending" (also understandable, although there's more to it than a lot of people give it credit for)


Not-so-legitimate criticism:
- "They changed their minds halfway into the story, therefore it must suck" (Charles Dickens and David Lynch also did it, I rest my case)
- "They lied to me" (no, they didn't, they misled you to avoid revealing anything substantial - big difference)
- "I wanted a purely scientific ending, as Damon led me to believe I could expect" (see above. Locke's faith was a driving force in the first season, and believing the miracles to be 100 percent scientific would make the Locke's faith in the island pointless as a plot point)
- "Nothing made sense" (demonstrably untrue)

 

[theslime]

Addendum: you know what did suck about Lost? Not showing the (planned) scenes of Ricardo meeting Charles Widmore and Ellie and not showing Jacob telling Charles to return to the island. The lack of a Widmore-centric episode is glaring. The only "mystery" that needed resolving, imo.

Okay, two trains are coming at each other at sixty miles an hour, one from Chicago, one from Los Angeles...

LOL! Okay, anything LOST-related.

 

[Neglify]

LOL! Okay, anything LOST-related.

I asked before, but it got lost in the shuffle. Have you checked out Driggs' LOST Edits? Complete overhaul of Season 6 and IMO they remain true to the spirit and tone of LOST.

 

[theslime]

I haven't watched them (yet), but I've read the threads and the cutlists. If the intention is removing the flashsideways and improving the on-island story, it looks brilliant. Personally, I love the flashsideways, but I'd love to see an improved on-island story anyway. The only thing I disagree with in the cutlists is less crazy-Claire (and no axe-murderer-Claire). I love crazy-Claire. But I'll definitely watch it some day, it'll be worth it just to watch season six without Sun losing her speech.

 

[T-HOPE]

I asked before, but it got lost in the shuffle. Have you checked out Driggs' LOST Edits? Complete overhaul of Season 6 and IMO they remain true to the spirit and tone of LOST.

Have downloaded it, yet no time to watch it at the moment.

Btw, about the character driven show comment. Explaining the end and the lack of explanation, the writers said the show was about the characters. Yet during the first seasons, they said it was more about the island and the mysteries and not about the characters.

Short version:
- "I wanted a purely scientific ending, as Damon led me to believe I could expect" (see above. Locke's faith was a driving force in the first season, and believing the miracles to be 100 percent scientific would make the Locke's faith in the island pointless as a plot point)

I don't want a scientific ending. I loved the mystery in the show (specially first 3 seasons). I loved Locke as a believer in the island and everything he did there. Yet using Jacob vs. MIB as explanation for a lot was lame.

 

[Q2]

Regardless of whether the ending was planned at the beginning or not, Abrams is not known for inspiring endings. Lost is the poster child for this, but it is true of almost everything he has ever done, including movies. Fringe is his latest casualty.

I don't think its fair to blame Abrahm's for Fringe (or Lost for that matter). He helped get the shows going and on the air, but I don't think he had much say in the overall story arch's or the day-to-day operations of how the show was handled.

And Fringe is probably one the most original and interesting shows on television right now. Period.

I guess you could say Abrams is more about the journey. He has an amazing knack for creating compelling characters and playing on audience expectations.

Same could be said for Stephen King. Of course, this has nothing to do with this particular conversation. Just sayin'...

I don't think the writers planned it they way they want us to believe they did. I really do think they made up stuff on the fly. Of course, some things can't be counted in for (Mr Eko leaving, as he was about to have a bigger story arc).

I think the original idea for the show was that they were in limbo, but when people started guessing that a quarter of the way through the first season they modified. What we got for an ending was, in my opinion, a more daring approach to just limbo.

And I don't remember if I've ever posted this here, but shortly after Lost ended someone wrote up a fairly extensive essay on Lost. Its very engrossing and manages to pretty much explain the show as a whole. Yes... some plot points aren't resolved, but its still a really interesting read, and gives you a new perspective on the show. If you have some time its worth the read.

LOST: The Ultimate Theory and Explanation

 

[geminigod]

Maybe this debate is a matter of science vs. religion at the end of the day. Some of you are saying you can explain it all and some of us are saying there is no way you can explain it all!

At the end of the day, though, even if I were to accept your explanation, that doesn't change the fact that the show is justifiably deserving of criticism. As others have pointed out, this is the biggest example of Deus Ex Machina seen in our generation. Most literary critics would agree this is poor literary form. It is lazy-man's writing. Period. But this should not be taken to mean that any story invoking God is bad. even though I gravitate more toward the science side of things, I am most certainly not a hater of good religious/spiritual stories or good abstract stories. No Exit is one of my favorite stories of all time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Exit. I also love Donnie Darko, which is very abstract. Lost on the other hand was presented as a sci-fi show, and that remained the overall feel of the show for the majority of its runtime.

Theslime & Q2, yes of course you can explain everything just like the guy in the article you linked to tries to do. That is the problem with Deus Ex Machina and religion in general. Anything can be explained by invoking God and using words like "assume" 50 times in the explanation. If this elaborate explanation works for you and you like the show, then I am glad for you, and that is the beauty of art. We all can find different meanings and assign different values to the work.

Whether or not the authors actually intended that exact explanation you have in mind is a another matter entirely.

The bottom line is your explanation will almost certainly never be satisfying to me. I could go back and re-watch the entire show and we could argue for all eternity about it without ever agreeing entirely. I will never convince you that your explanation is wrong, and you will never convince me that your explanation makes perfect sense or is good writing. You choose to believe. I don't. Done.

 

[g1orkatsos]