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Doctor Strange and the Book of Dreams

Here is an updated intro. The lead in has been improved with the whih sting, the columbia logo has been replaced with an animated one (from cat ballou) , audio cues have been added for the dream sequence and the first dream has been changed to include the time travel elements.
 
tremault said:
audio cues have been added for the dream sequence
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In my headphones, the "ticking" is a bit loud and intrusive. Could be because I knew it was coming though... Not sure whether you want people's attention to be drawn to it or if you'd rather make it subtle?
 
mnkykungfu said:
In my headphones, the "ticking" is a bit loud and intrusive. Could be because I knew it was coming though... Not sure whether you want people's attention to be drawn to it or if you'd rather make it subtle?
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I was thinking maybe a little loud, but that is the thing, do I want to be sure people hear it and notice it or not. i think too much will bring people out of the movie so I think I need a bit more adjustment.
 
I have been trying to find some audio solution to specify that the dream Stephen refers to here was not the one last night, as it could cause confusion.

I've tried various sound clips from different places and this is the most recent..... I would definitely appreciate some alternate ears on this. Thanks :)

 
^For me, the insertion of "recently" sounds good. The issue though is that he says "you were in my dream" rather than "you've been in my dreams" or even "you were in a dream". The phrasing is pretty specific, implying we the viewers know of that particular dream. It works better for me to simply take out these mentions of her being in his dream, since him just having this deja vu sense that they've met and then her talking about being close to the other Stephen doesn't really require any more explanation.
My theory is: less is more. If it doesn't break someone's suspension of disbelief, then easier to just cut it out and make room for the better-executed bits of the film. Others may have a different read on it though.
 
structural problems would occur if I were to attempt to take that out. Narrative structural problems.
The mention of it being in a dream is an instigator of the restaurant scene and the further mention of it is the instigator of the following rooftop scene. without that, there is no narrative thread carrying us through each scene and the movie starts to fall apart, it would be three seemingly disparate scenes and would not feel good. This is an important element. It's surely hard work to get it right, but it's really not an option to remove it, especially since the movie itself is about dreams.
without that, how does America go from trying to run away to being ready to tell them all about the multiverse? The element that transforms her attitude each time is "I don't believe you". This is something we can each relate to, when somebody says "I don't believe you" we feel compelled to fight our case. without these elements, none of it makes sense. I feel like it would be a feat of true gymnastics and magic spells to make these scenes work without those elements.

The real challenge is how to make it 'make sense' that Stephen says "you were in my dream" and I am thinking it may be necessary for me to put her back in his dream.

I want to say, each time something is suggested to me, I go to the scene and I study it over and over, examining different possibilities, simulating cuts in my head, getting a sense for the timings etc. sometimes I try different edits on my timeline and i try many multiples of variations to test it out. I want to give reassurance that I would never dismiss something out of hand, it's just hard for me to communicate all the complexities of it sometimes.

So here's what I'm thinking of for dream restoration. short and to the point, and reinforcing the dream feel. maybe.
 
I have a suggestion, the movie can start right away with the full dream chase sequence, then roll in the logos, then cut to the animated segment. I think it will feel natural the way we make more than just one dream at night.
 
DirtyCop1036 said:
I have a suggestion, the movie can start right away with the full dream chase sequence, then roll in the logos, then cut to the animated segment. I think it will feel natural the way we make more than just one dream at night.
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I agree and I like it, if it were not for the deleted scene that is in place. That deleted scene is quite powerful in reinforcing that Stephen always has to be the one holding the knife.
 
How about this:
  • WHIH footage of Strange & Christine, with music near the end of the scene that transitions to...
  • Defender Strange zapping America & dying the way you currently have it, so it's intentionally sudden & disorienting
  • Marvel Logo
  • What If Strange & Christine
Maybe some unorthodox transitions between all of those would make everything feel more dreamlike, like a direct fade from clean-shaven Strange to Defender Strange?

Also, not a realistic idea, but it would be cool if you were able to rotoscope different parts of the WHIH Strange, Defender Strange & What If Strange scenes to mirror that editing montage of Strange, the Darkhold & Wanda from later on in the movie.
 
Nic said:
How about this:
  • WHIH footage of Strange & Christine, with music near the end of the scene that transitions to...
  • Defender Strange zapping America & dying the way you currently have it, so it's intentionally sudden & disorienting
  • Marvel Logo
  • What If Strange & Christine
Maybe some unorthodox transitions between all of those would make everything feel more dreamlike, like a direct fade from clean-shaven Strange to Defender Strange?

Also, not a realistic idea, but it would be cool if you were able to rotoscope different parts of the WHIH Strange, Defender Strange & What If Strange scenes to mirror that editing montage of Strange, the Darkhold & Wanda from later on in the movie.
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So the news segment becomes part of the dream? hmm, that could be good, but would that work?
I'm certainly willing to go with it and the prospect of doing some animation has been with me through this anyway so it's certainly a possibility.
I don't want to do any animation though unless it's locked in. hard work. I'm not even sure what workflow I'd use, maybe do some freehand on my phone screen with the s-pen, or somehow use vectors in photoshop or something.
 
I don't know about animation, but the news segment as part of a dream has merit. I actually recently read a comic (Tom King's Mister Miracle) that starts off with a 30s/40s news serial-style opening only to cut to a dramatic moment to set the tone of the film, you could probably replicate that moment here.

Like, if you still want this to be the past, have the WHIH scene in sepia tone? Actually, if you do want to do animation, maybe you could ask Gieferg for help so that the "film reel" could burn away on WHIH Strange's face & reveal Defender Strange's face, grindhouse style.
 
Nic said:
I don't know about animation, but the news segment as part of a dream has merit. I actually recently read a comic (Tom King's Mister Miracle) that starts off with a 30s/40s news serial-style opening only to cut to a dramatic moment to set the tone of the film, you could probably replicate that moment here.

Like, if you still want this to be the past, have the WHIH scene in sepia tone? Actually, if you do want to do animation, maybe you could ask Gieferg for help so that the "film reel" could burn away on WHIH Strange's face & reveal Defender Strange's face, grindhouse style.
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My degree is in animation, but I forgot how much I hate it XD
Just did some tests with vectors in photoshop and it's so fiddly. XD
so I realise I don't want to do that. my wheelhouse is videogame animation, I shouldn't try to push myself to do line animation.

doing a warp transition might be cool though!!
 
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I get that this is a spot that's important for you and your working hard on and considering it from all angles. Sometimes you have to try things a few different ways to see how well it's working, right? I don't take that for granted. That said...
tremault said:
So here's what I'm thinking of for dream restoration. short and to the point, and reinforcing the dream feel. maybe.
Click to expand...
I'm going to put aside for a moment that I hate everything about that alternate reality sequence, from the bad wig to the bad CGI to America's bad acting... For me, this intro doesn't work because the transition from this to animation (then to yet another Stephen right after this sequence) is awkward and unrelated. It's hard enough to make the animation feel like it belongs in this film. Starting our Dr. Strange film with alternate Stephen after alternate Stephen makes it hard for me to sink into our Stephen's journey.

I've suggested privately several specific lines that can be removed so that Stephen and America talk about dreams, but he doesn't talk about her being in his dream. The theatrical version explanation is yet another of several lazy writing tropes from Michael Waldron, in this case using someone having dreams as some artificial connector for the characters so that the audience will just accept the mashup. Dreams actually have nothing to do with Strange's arc in the theatrical film, which is about realizing he's finally lost Christine and about his need to be the one who plays god, who has the power, who has control.

Losing the dream connection does nothing to lessen his or America's motivations imho, and in fact the genius idea you had about inserting the What If material allows for those to be dreams where Stephen follows both those arcs I mentioned. Stephen's repeated dreams about questing for power parallel Wanda's quest to dreamwalk with the Darkhold.
tremault said:
without that, how does America go from trying to run away to being ready to tell them all about the multiverse?
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1. Stephen sees monster chasing girl and jumps off balcony to save her.
2. (As we find out later, girl has been running from monster after monster, so...) girl tries to run away right after this monster is dead. Why stop running now?
3. Wong has his own sling ring and cuts her off. Stephen asks why she was running and says exasperatedly "I'm not going to kill you, I just saved you!" Girl sees the logic in this.
4. Girl sits in cafe and catches them (and us) up on her side of the story. Says she knew Stephen in her reality and he tried to save her but....didn't.
5. Cut to: girl showing dead body of her Stephen on adjacent rooftop from where monster first appeared.

Nothing about this requires any mention of Stephen seeing her in his dream, right? Am I missing something with the flow here? I think you can totally do it @tremault , no magic or gymnastics required! :) Now, on the other hand, if the issue is just that you really like the idea that Stephen dreamed about America and want to include it, then that's a another kettle of fish. In that case, you'd have to find a way to include that but still make room for him to be having these animated dreams without it getting confusing...
 
It's not that I like the idea, it's more frustration from looking at the existing dialogue, and feeling confident that the timing and existing footage don't allow for it. If I can't see a way for it to work, it feels like I'm doing a bad job. I can't go against my instincts. I keep looking at it and it feels like I would be shooting myself in the foot. You've laid it out in a list though and I can't ignore that. Do I go look at it again... I feel like Stephen going back in time repeating the same actions XD
 
Okay, you got me. I must be really tired. heck I thought I'd had enough of a rest but maybe not. or maybe it was staying up too late? I honestly couldn't see a solution but here I tried this based on your list and I have to say it flows well. Does it introduce narrative issues though? I can't think well right now so I'll just leave this here and trust the process. anyway thanks for being persistent mnkykungfu as always.

edit: yeah it still makes me feel uncomfortable slightly. really not sure what it is that's bothering me.
 
^For me, that cut works really well and avoids any of the dream confusion. It's obviously got more exposition where you Snipped but once it's in the context of the whole film, I think it'll work really well. I'll leave it for others to see if it feels natural to them, too...
 
What bugs me is that the pace is too fast, jumping from America giving the sling ring back to them in the diner. A time lapse shot of NYC might help, followed by an establishing shot of the diner (bonus points if you can find/create a line of Strange saying "you mind telling us what's going on?").
 
^FWIW, the original film is basically cut like that. No shots of them walking into the diner, or even seeing the diner, or anything like that. The only thing really different is before they suddenly cut to America in the diner, the lines about the dream are removed. (The diner is visible on the street while they're fighting Shuma Gorath though, but I'm sure nobody notices it with everything else going on.)
 
I'm thinking in the original, the musical cues help to carry it through. that and Stephen and Wong looking at each other. it hints at an upcoming change. I don't have that. America handing the slingie to Stephen and her facial expression are what I used for the timing for my cut, but it might not be as strong. I do like the idea of an establishing shot for the Diner, but that would also indicate passing of time and less expediency. It might make it feel like more of the day has passed, yet we cut to Wanda soon enough and she is dreaming and wakes up, which suggests all of this intro happens at some point in the AM. I think the establish shot would be nice, but it might mess up the sense of time in general. Instead, I could simply try to bring in the music in the same way as the original. I also need to do some audio at the rooftop as I just carried the cafe audio into that next scene, but it needs the rooftop sounds to come in.
 
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