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A deleted scene from Spectre
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Bond-Spectre
- Thread starter Zarius
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So, I don't get all the flak the film is getting. I think it's partially a victim of expectations: Skyfall was especially well received after Quantum of Solace was, to put it mildly, rather disappointing. The hype for this was big, especially after Skyfall, that there was no possible way people would be as impressed.
I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would, though that's not to say it isn't without fault.
Some non-spoilery stuff:
- That Sam Smith song. It was more bearable during the opening credits (the imagery was really great, though I had feared it would go in an entirely different direction a few times with those tentacles) but by and large I still didn't care for it.
- Monica Belluci and Dave Bautista didn't really have much to do.
- That tracking shot at the beginning of the film gave Orson Welles's corpse a boner (or it should have).
- Christoph Waltz, though underused, was excellent as always.
- The train fight. Damn (that was awesome).
- The cinematography was astounding, especially the scenes in Austria.
Let's delve into some spoilers:
Has anyone else noticed a trend of people leaving the theater before the final scene ends? I've noticed that a few times at several movies and it puzzles me greatly. With the cost of movies...why not stay the whole time?
I enjoyed it a lot more than I thought I would, though that's not to say it isn't without fault.
Some non-spoilery stuff:
- That Sam Smith song. It was more bearable during the opening credits (the imagery was really great, though I had feared it would go in an entirely different direction a few times with those tentacles) but by and large I still didn't care for it.
- Monica Belluci and Dave Bautista didn't really have much to do.
- That tracking shot at the beginning of the film gave Orson Welles's corpse a boner (or it should have).
- Christoph Waltz, though underused, was excellent as always.
- The train fight. Damn (that was awesome).
- The cinematography was astounding, especially the scenes in Austria.
Let's delve into some spoilers:
I don't get why people are saying that the inclusion of SPECTRE as an organization makes the previous films retroactively worse.
- Le Chiffre got money from Quantum, and by them being a part of SPECTRE, Le Chiffre dealt with them (indirectly, sure, but still).
- Dominic Greene worked for Quantum, therefore SPECTRE.
- The Silva connection was the only one I couldn't quite figure, unless we assume he was also part of Quantum/SPECTRE.
The whole "mass surveillance" thing was something Captain America: The Winter Soldier tackled, but I suppose they wanted something for M and company to do. As a side note, do they realize that grounding 007 just never works, like, ever?
There was a missed opportunity for the "Do you expect me to talk?/No Mr Bond, I expect you to die!" exchange. I also thought Swann confessing her love for James was a bit...odd at that time. I had been expecting her to die during the finale, or at the end on the bridge, but I'm sure that's coming.
- Le Chiffre got money from Quantum, and by them being a part of SPECTRE, Le Chiffre dealt with them (indirectly, sure, but still).
- Dominic Greene worked for Quantum, therefore SPECTRE.
- The Silva connection was the only one I couldn't quite figure, unless we assume he was also part of Quantum/SPECTRE.
The whole "mass surveillance" thing was something Captain America: The Winter Soldier tackled, but I suppose they wanted something for M and company to do. As a side note, do they realize that grounding 007 just never works, like, ever?
There was a missed opportunity for the "Do you expect me to talk?/No Mr Bond, I expect you to die!" exchange. I also thought Swann confessing her love for James was a bit...odd at that time. I had been expecting her to die during the finale, or at the end on the bridge, but I'm sure that's coming.
Has anyone else noticed a trend of people leaving the theater before the final scene ends? I've noticed that a few times at several movies and it puzzles me greatly. With the cost of movies...why not stay the whole time?
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I agree with pretty much everything you said there aztek. A fun film, beautifully shot.
I actually really like the Sam Smith song, but not sung by Sam Smith because he can't actually hit the notes (as he said, he struggles....).
I'd like to hear a cover by someone who *has* the requisite range. Could be awesome.
I actually really like the Sam Smith song, but not sung by Sam Smith because he can't actually hit the notes (as he said, he struggles....).
I'd like to hear a cover by someone who *has* the requisite range. Could be awesome.
I'm not sure that Blofeld was entirely telling the truth about SPECTRE being behind everything. He was obviously keeping tabs on Bond, and said he was behind it all to make Bond feel utterly helpless (a kite in a storm...). Although it does seem that Quantum has now been retconned to SPECTRE. That's fine by me. A Spectre of Solace would've been a weird title anyway...
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Well, I really don't like Sam Smith so his song never really stood a chance in my book. 
Had he done Skyfall just as well as Adele did, I still wouldn't have liked the song.
Had he done Skyfall just as well as Adele did, I still wouldn't have liked the song.Spectre of Solace still would have worked. Spectre (or Specter) usually refers to a ghost. So, it would have been "Ghost of Solace." YMMV of course.
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I don't know Sam Smith. Only heard his Bond song. Wonder if Adele will do a cover....
^ I suppose that may just about have worked. A Quantum of Solace was a weird title anyway.
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Watched Spectre on the weekend, and oddly, though I thought it was better written than Skyfall, it did not feel as fun. I can not help but think Newman's score is partly to blame? Scenes like the Rome car chase or train fight with Hinx, which clearly have an old fashioned classic fun, humorous tone, is undermined by a continuous dark, intense action score. Instead of heightening these lighter moments, the score seems to ignore/squash them imo.
Overall, an entertaining Bond flick, and a nice send off for Craig if he decides not to return to the role.
Like many, I hated that they made Bond and Blofeld brothers!?!?! I did not realize this was a remake of Goldmember! lol!
Also, I do not understand how DNA on one rings connects to all the baddies from the previous films? Did they all touch or wear the same ring? Or maybe, I just missed an important piece of exposition? Though why would a super secret society all wear rings identifying themselves? lol
Also, I do not understand how DNA on one rings connects to all the baddies from the previous films? Did they all touch or wear the same ring? Or maybe, I just missed an important piece of exposition? Though why would a super secret society all wear rings identifying themselves? lol
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I saw the film over the weekend and overall I really enjoyed it.
I remember when Skyfall came out that people complained about the plot holes in that film so I'm reluctant to tear this film apart for it's plot holes.
I also think that the film is kinda a victim of the series being rebooted. All the previous Craig films have been about Bond becoming Bond. I know Skyfall was kinda nearly there but for me Spectre is the first film we see Daniel Craig playing the fully realised James Bond, which is awesome but does present some issues.
For example, the tone of the Craig films have been much more serious than previous versions, as result some of the humour feels out of place.
Also, now Craig's Bond is fully realised the temptation to go back to the old formula was clearly there, which might have disappointed some. But for me if Craig had continued the series deconstructing Bond rather than just playing him straight and never went on a traditional 007 adventure I would of moaned about not seeing him in a good old fashioned Bond film, which is what Spectre is.
But the novelty value in Spectre isn't there precisely because it's a good old fashion 007 adventure, so the makers can't really win lol
Some niggles: Monica Belluci's role was pointless, Dave Bautista was a missed opertunity and Christoph Waltz's role was underwhelming (and we all know how awesome Waltz can be).
Some highlights:It was great seeing Q, M and Money Penny being part of the action, I felt that worked really well. The opening shot in amazing and the pacing is excellent.
So overall, I really enjoyed it and I'm glad Craig made his traditional Bond film. But I think in doing so elements of the film suffered.
Oh, very curious now to see if Craig will make another.
I remember when Skyfall came out that people complained about the plot holes in that film so I'm reluctant to tear this film apart for it's plot holes.
I also think that the film is kinda a victim of the series being rebooted. All the previous Craig films have been about Bond becoming Bond. I know Skyfall was kinda nearly there but for me Spectre is the first film we see Daniel Craig playing the fully realised James Bond, which is awesome but does present some issues.
For example, the tone of the Craig films have been much more serious than previous versions, as result some of the humour feels out of place.
Also, now Craig's Bond is fully realised the temptation to go back to the old formula was clearly there, which might have disappointed some. But for me if Craig had continued the series deconstructing Bond rather than just playing him straight and never went on a traditional 007 adventure I would of moaned about not seeing him in a good old fashioned Bond film, which is what Spectre is.
But the novelty value in Spectre isn't there precisely because it's a good old fashion 007 adventure, so the makers can't really win lol
Some niggles: Monica Belluci's role was pointless, Dave Bautista was a missed opertunity and Christoph Waltz's role was underwhelming (and we all know how awesome Waltz can be).
Some highlights:It was great seeing Q, M and Money Penny being part of the action, I felt that worked really well. The opening shot in amazing and the pacing is excellent.
So overall, I really enjoyed it and I'm glad Craig made his traditional Bond film. But I think in doing so elements of the film suffered.
Oh, very curious now to see if Craig will make another.
spence said:
I definitely agree about it needing to go, but there are some holes that would need to be covered if that whole subplot gets the boot:
-Blofeld has to talk about something during the whole torture scene - maybe a better explanation for his\Spectre's motives? Waltz has some interesting soundbites about working all his life for one goal in Green Hornet, and some soundbites about being an artist in Big Eyes.
-The old picture of Franz Oberhauser/Blofeld spread through the film would have to be replaced with something, maybe just a blank picture and a couple of ????? under the name.
Also, it would take a bit of effect artistry but i think it's possible - In the final confrontation, maybe instead of scribing a heart symbol, Blofeld could write an "M" on the window before he takes off? it's both for "Madeline" and he could hint that he's gonna harm M, Q etc. - Perhaps he can use the Helicopter to shoot up the new MI6 Headquarters? in terms of footage Agent 47 could work, and it could add to the stakes and finality of the climax.
-The old picture of Franz Oberhauser/Blofeld spread through the film would have to be replaced with something, maybe just a blank picture and a couple of ????? under the name.
Also, it would take a bit of effect artistry but i think it's possible - In the final confrontation, maybe instead of scribing a heart symbol, Blofeld could write an "M" on the window before he takes off? it's both for "Madeline" and he could hint that he's gonna harm M, Q etc. - Perhaps he can use the Helicopter to shoot up the new MI6 Headquarters? in terms of footage Agent 47 could work, and it could add to the stakes and finality of the climax.
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Since this thread is moving towards discussion of fanedit-ideas (Which require putting everything in a wall of 'Spoiler Tags') I've created a thread for that purpose here.
But please continue to post general reviews of how much you liked/disliked 'Spectre' here as before.
But please continue to post general reviews of how much you liked/disliked 'Spectre' here as before.
Garp
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Saw 'Spectre' at the weekend and, even after a few days to think about it, I still feel a little disappointed by it.
It certainly harkens back to 'the golden age' of Bond, with the super-villain plot (and I was probably one of the few people to actually believe the 'Oberhauser isn't Blofeld' rumours and so was genuinely surprised by that. What can I say; I'm pretty gullible). Even so, it just seemed too jarring to me for a Daniel Craig Bond film to be more 'campy', if that's the right word. I grew up on Roger Moore, and later learned to appreciate the Connery Bond through Bank Holiday Specials on TV. They are big, bold, ridiculous and I love them. But I really liked the newer vision of Bond that Craig and the writers have developed, and this film, in trying something new (or, in this case, old) just doesn't sit right with me. Maybe it's something I'll appreciate more when it comes out on blu-ray and I can watch all 4 over a weekend and feel better about the 'everything-is-connected' plot.
I actually hope that this is Craig's last outing as it was a great ending to his arc. However, if he does come back, would an OHMSS-type plot seem too obvious? Bond marries Madeline (or at least resigns - again - to settle down), Blofeld kills Madeline, Bond seeks revenge? I can't think of any other way they can get out of the corner they've written themselves into with Craig as Bond. And they've waited so long to bring Blofeld back, so you know they have to run with his character now.
If Craig hangs up his PPK, I'm thinking that this would be a great opportunity for the writers to finally embrace the Codename Theory. Have Craig retire and show the recruitment of a new 007 - maybe even going so far a la 'Men in Black'. Over the past 4 films, the writers have tried so hard to establish a believable continuity, I don't think they would suddenly throw that away and have a new actor take on the mantle without some acknowledgment that, yes, he looks different but stay with us on this one. (They could even add in the brainwashing theory for 00 agents, though that might be taking things too far.) I mean, the Doctor Who specials with the multiple Doctors always seem to be fan favourites; imagine a Bond film with previous Bond cameos... If they do go this route, I'm offering the film title of 'Risico', as maybe a codename for the process of instigating a new 007. It's one of Fleming's short stories and fits the one-word titles in recent films. You're welcome, EON.
I actually hope that this is Craig's last outing as it was a great ending to his arc. However, if he does come back, would an OHMSS-type plot seem too obvious? Bond marries Madeline (or at least resigns - again - to settle down), Blofeld kills Madeline, Bond seeks revenge? I can't think of any other way they can get out of the corner they've written themselves into with Craig as Bond. And they've waited so long to bring Blofeld back, so you know they have to run with his character now.
If Craig hangs up his PPK, I'm thinking that this would be a great opportunity for the writers to finally embrace the Codename Theory. Have Craig retire and show the recruitment of a new 007 - maybe even going so far a la 'Men in Black'. Over the past 4 films, the writers have tried so hard to establish a believable continuity, I don't think they would suddenly throw that away and have a new actor take on the mantle without some acknowledgment that, yes, he looks different but stay with us on this one. (They could even add in the brainwashing theory for 00 agents, though that might be taking things too far.) I mean, the Doctor Who specials with the multiple Doctors always seem to be fan favourites; imagine a Bond film with previous Bond cameos... If they do go this route, I'm offering the film title of 'Risico', as maybe a codename for the process of instigating a new 007. It's one of Fleming's short stories and fits the one-word titles in recent films. You're welcome, EON.
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Can we go to spoilers now? It's been out internationally for over a month; anyone clicking on the thread at this point does so at their own peril. Spoilers follow. ;-)
(... Okay, but even if this international government intelligence database briefly goes online, so what? M makes a few calls, C is paraded in front of Parliament, the network is shut down. Again, so what?)
As with TDKR, we're asked to care about our hero contemplating retirement, but how can we if we know nothing about him apart from his job? At least Arrow S4 has given us something in showing that Ollie loves to cook and is pretty good at it (and he has a family, of sorts). Name one thing apart from being professional badasses and consuming stuff that Bale's Wayne and Craig's Bond enjoy doing? How can we, when after multiple movies we know absolutely nothing about them?
The underlying problem here, of course, is the same one the Bourne series ran into when it tried to follow a new agent, and the same one that faces the Mission: Impossible series, though they don't have the pretensions of relevance or seriousness that Craig's Bond run does, and that's white spies are pretty much useless in today's world. How awesome would it be to see an Asian 00 infiltrate North Korea, or a Middle Eastern 00 in Tehran or Saudi Arabia? Stick Daniel Craig in either place, however, and his Anglo looks generally and blue eyes specifically (which this movie explicitly shouts out several times) make infiltration impossible by default.
IMO, unless the series is willing to try out a new ethnicity, it's time to go back to basics, and I mean really the basics. Give us a new 20-something Bond member of a commando unit during WWII, and a Nazi supervillain. Then as the Cold War starts up, show him transition from a team-based military man to a cloak-and-dagger lone operator. A white spy isn't pointless against Germans or Russians, at least.
... So, what did I think of it all? Unlike Skyfall, which was just boring and stupid, I liked it, even if Bond kinda sucks at his job. (He can't kill an old man in a helicopter? And attacks the pilot first for no reason while in the air above civilians? And doesn't know the features of the car he jacked and takes into battle? And despite having seen a surveillance camera in a disgraced baddie's house, just waltzes into his daughter's workplace instead of sneaking into her residence for a private chat?) Whatever; like I said, it's beautiful kabuki, and the sibling/love-interest step-daughter (or at least cousin, right?) stuff at least bothered to appeal to my emotional side, unlike stupid crazy magic Silva and his nonsense neuroses. Spectre goes to the arty extreme of action moviemaking. Okay, fine. I'll take it on its own merits and give it a
B
But let's not do it again, yeah?
I'm not sure about plot holes, but to me, the plot made zero sense. Once again, as in Skyfall, we have the antagonistic political types saying that the interconnectedness of everything makes the 00 program obsolete, which is ludicrous, because as Mallory points out here, you still have to have someone to pull a trigger (unless you can cause a big-ass explosion by hacking into a building's heating supply each and every time), so obviously assassins are at least just useful in today's world, not less. But even after Dench M found out about Quantum, it's possible for a "private donor" to finance a brand-new government intelligence apparatus?! Wha?! Next you'll tell me a psycho Starfleet admiral can build a huge mega-starship right in Jupiter's orbit in almost total secret! (Wait...) I'll say again: in this movie, the UK lets a private donor finance a brand-new multi-national government intelligence bureau. And European capitals are virtually devoid of traffic after dark in May. And a pad on a laptop can read multiple DNA traces from years back off of a ring. Uh-huh. Suuuuuurrrre. Even more so than Skyfall, with its nonsense plot about a psycho who can magically predict the direction of a foot chase shootout and an intelligence director who waves a flashlight around in the dark while being pursued, this isn't a plot at all, friends; it's kabuki. It isn't a spy caper popcorn flick; it's a fine art motion photography exhibit.TM2YC said:You heard it here. No edits allowed to the opening Mexico sequence that preceeds the song
I heard/read a lot of comments that 'Spectre' has "Gigantic plot holes that you could drive a ->insert name of large vehicle here<- through and that the whole story made zero sense". I didn't really notice any that I recall, so I'm curious to know what these people are referrring to? IF YOU DO KNOW THE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION SPOILER TAG IT!
(... Okay, but even if this international government intelligence database briefly goes online, so what? M makes a few calls, C is paraded in front of Parliament, the network is shut down. Again, so what?)
As with TDKR, we're asked to care about our hero contemplating retirement, but how can we if we know nothing about him apart from his job? At least Arrow S4 has given us something in showing that Ollie loves to cook and is pretty good at it (and he has a family, of sorts). Name one thing apart from being professional badasses and consuming stuff that Bale's Wayne and Craig's Bond enjoy doing? How can we, when after multiple movies we know absolutely nothing about them?
The underlying problem here, of course, is the same one the Bourne series ran into when it tried to follow a new agent, and the same one that faces the Mission: Impossible series, though they don't have the pretensions of relevance or seriousness that Craig's Bond run does, and that's white spies are pretty much useless in today's world. How awesome would it be to see an Asian 00 infiltrate North Korea, or a Middle Eastern 00 in Tehran or Saudi Arabia? Stick Daniel Craig in either place, however, and his Anglo looks generally and blue eyes specifically (which this movie explicitly shouts out several times) make infiltration impossible by default.
IMO, unless the series is willing to try out a new ethnicity, it's time to go back to basics, and I mean really the basics. Give us a new 20-something Bond member of a commando unit during WWII, and a Nazi supervillain. Then as the Cold War starts up, show him transition from a team-based military man to a cloak-and-dagger lone operator. A white spy isn't pointless against Germans or Russians, at least.
... So, what did I think of it all? Unlike Skyfall, which was just boring and stupid, I liked it, even if Bond kinda sucks at his job. (He can't kill an old man in a helicopter? And attacks the pilot first for no reason while in the air above civilians? And doesn't know the features of the car he jacked and takes into battle? And despite having seen a surveillance camera in a disgraced baddie's house, just waltzes into his daughter's workplace instead of sneaking into her residence for a private chat?) Whatever; like I said, it's beautiful kabuki, and the sibling/love-interest step-daughter (or at least cousin, right?) stuff at least bothered to appeal to my emotional side, unlike stupid crazy magic Silva and his nonsense neuroses. Spectre goes to the arty extreme of action moviemaking. Okay, fine. I'll take it on its own merits and give it a
B
But let's not do it again, yeah?
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You know there were rumours that Radiohead recorded a song for Spectre?
Turns out those rumours were true
[video=youtube_share;i6WO8Dcxr4s]
Turns out those rumours were true
[video=youtube_share;i6WO8Dcxr4s]