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Star Trek: The Next Generation

suicide by noises

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I have ben watching this show on a local channel lately (here) and have seen ones I haven't seen before (I know there are alot). I really like where they take you and think about them alot after watching them, especially critiqing then when I'm in bed waiting to fall asleep. I'm not really a Trekkie but I do enjoy watching TNG, never really got into the orig or the rest.

Also, another mention, way back when it was in syndacation, I loved staying up and watching The New Outer Limits. I liked the one where the guy is caught between two worlds. I won't give away the ending.

Thanks and glad to be here.:music:
 
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TNG really had some great episodes. It also had some awful episodes. But when it was good it was very good.

I highly recommend the episode "Darmok". To me that episode embodies the best of Star Trek.

V.
 

Rogue-theX

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Darmok and jalad, when the walls fell. His arms wide, tenagra!

...

Darmok and jalad, they left together, when the walls fell.

Shaka, when the walls fell!!! ;-)
 

Uncanny Antman

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Close. "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra." and "Temba, his arms wide"

I have seen this ep too many times, I think. :-o


...Sokath, his eyes uncovered!
 

Captain Khajiit

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I like that episode too, but it doesn't make any sense. Even if a society were to decide to communicate in metaphor, the metaphors would still need to have some kind of internal grammatical structure that could be understood -- and taught to the young -- or over time they would just become random sounds associated with concepts. For me, this episode is a good example of something that I like but find hard to enjoy fully because it is fundamentally flawed.
 

Gaith

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^ True. It's very well-acted and paced, but makes no sense at all.
 

Uncanny Antman

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Captain Khajiit said:
I like that episode too, but it doesn't make any sense. Even if a society were to decide to communicate in metaphor, the metaphors would still need to have some kind of internal grammatical structure that could be understood
THere is grammar involved, that's why Picard is able to understand parts of it like "his eyes uncovered" but because of the way they use their language, it becomes incomprehensible to an outsider.

The episode itself simplifies the explanation, but it's plain to see that the translator does it's job as well as it can, translating any words that aren't proper people or place names. It just can't interpret intent or metaphor.
 

Captain Khajiit

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Uncanny Antman said:
THere is grammar involved, that's why Picard is able to understand parts of it like "his eyes uncovered" but because of the way they use their language, it becomes incomprehensible to an outsider.

The episode itself simplifies the explanation, but it's plain to see that the translator does it's job as well as it can, translating any words that aren't proper people or place names. It just can't interpret intent or metaphor.

Yes; the phrases contain grammar, which the translator translates. The point is that if the language contains a grammar its users must be able to explain the metaphors to each other or the metaphors would become meaningless sounds over time. The episode presents the Children of Tama as communciating with each other solely through citing example, which is possible amongst fluent speakers if it is a linguistic convention, but it is absurd that anyone who is taught a language to the point at which they can understand metaphor would not realize that an outsider unfamiliar with the metaphors would not understand them without explanation.

The Tamarians must have some form of metalanguage with which to discuss and teach their own language to members of their own species, so it is absurd that the Tamarian captain is unable to explain them to Picard. (He is obviously trying hard to do so.) The moment the universal translator can decode the individual words themselves -- as you pointed out, it translates grammar words, not simply proper nouns -- would be the point at which the Tamarian captain would say, ""Temba, his arms wide" means I'm giving this to you."
 
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I must say that, being a translator myself and not a native speaker of the English language, I sometimes feel that English is similar to Tamarian. Not that English doesn't have grammar, but many times you have to be intricately familiar with the many meanings of words in order to understand which one is used in a particular context.

For instance (I really came up with this example on the spot), if I were to tell you the sentence "Snow leopard is native to this", without knowing more about the context you wouldn't know if I was talking about:

1. An animal
2. A native American
3. An operating system

In my language and most other languages, even without context, you would be able to tell.

English is a very "emotional" language. Most of the time you just have to let go of everything you've learnt (the past tense of "learn" - another fine example) and "feel your way" through a sentence.

This is not criticism - it's one of the reasons why I love English so much. I'm just saying that maybe it's not such a crazy proposition.

V.
 

Captain Khajiit

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Vlad Taushanov said:
I'm just saying that maybe it's not such a crazy proposition.

In English, if someone didn't understand a metaphor, it could be explained using language that was not based on metaphor. In Tamarian, as presented in the episode, there is no way to explain the metaphors themselves. That's why it's absurd. What you seem to be saying is that English is very idiomatic, and I would agree with you, but this doesn't have any bearing on the absurdity of the episode.
 

Uncanny Antman

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Is that all? My finger slipped! And how come you didn't mock the thread title itself? What is this vendetta you have against me, Frink? Why do you harrass me so? That's it, I'm leaving this forum. I can't take it any more.

(It feels like it would be overkill to insert a winking smiley at the end, so I'll refrain. ;) ...Ah shit, I accidentally used one anyway.)
 

TV's Frink

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Uncanny Antman said:
And how come you didn't mock the thread title itself?
I didn't know if the OP could handle it with the same grace and class you did. :p
 

Uncanny Antman

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fustigation.jpg
 

grayson

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I  really want to get into the series but I  find the pacing quite slow. Any recommendations on how to remedy this?
 

asterixsmeagol

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I love the series, but the pacing is slow. You just have to adjust your expectations and remember that it's a product of the 80s.
 
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