Newbie getting a decent mp4 out of Vegas

[TM2YC]

I just switched from Nero Vision Xtra (For these and other reasons) to Vegas 12 and before I edit even a single frame I'm wanting to pin down how my work will export.

I like to distribute my edits as 1280x720 mp4s but no matter what setting I seem to choose I can't get Vegas to output an mp4 file that isn't all blocky.

For comparison here is a frame from roughly the same 60 second render in the two programs (1280x720mp4, with B&W, sharpening and FilmGrain filters)...



(^ Click to see full res)

^ As you can see the Vegas frame is very blocky and compressed while the Nero output isn't at all. The Nero file is half the size, so is a bit softer naturally (The contrast is also less but that's down to different settings). I think I've tried every type of mp4 in the render, have switched it from VBR to CBR, upped the bitrate (To a level where crazy sized files are outputted), lowered the bitrate etc etc but I just can't get this shot to render in anything close to acceptable and without those large blocks.

FYI The soft focus closeup above ^ comes just after this highly detailed longshot...



...if that makes understanding the problem any easier. This longshot is better but still has some harsh blocking on close inspection.

Can any experienced Vegas users suggest a setting that could be causing this?

 

[ThrowgnCpr]

Vegas is a fantastic editing program, but I generally don't like its rendering engine. I always export lossless video, and encode to my final product with an external encoder (MeGUI for mkv/mp4 & CCE/HcEnc for DVD)

 

[TM2YC]

Vegas is a fantastic editing program, but I generally don't like its rendering engine. I always export lossless video, and encode to my final product with an external encoder (MeGUI for mkv/mp4 & CCE/HcEnc for DVD)

So I'm probably not doing anything wrong? It's just that Vegas has a bad rendering engine (For mp4s at least). Thanks for the response!

btw By lossless, I take it you'd reccomend LagarithAVI. Or would you suggest one of the other options? (CineForm etc).

 

[ThrowgnCpr]

The rendering engine certainly isn't bad. You can tweak options to get OK renders. I just don't think it's that great, especially for how good the editing software is. I use Lagarith (input and output).

 

[TM2YC]

The rendering engine certainly isn't bad. You can tweak options to get OK renders. I just don't think it's that great, especially for how good the editing software is. I use Lagarith (input and output).

I tried outputting the video from Vegas to LagarithAVI (600mb) and then converted that to *.mp4 (41mb) using VidCoder (I can never get MeGUI to play ball for me somehow? :-?) and I'm really pleased with the results...



(^ Click to see fullsize original image)

^ It looks almost as good as the uncompressed version and even looks twice as good as the Nero output despite the file being about 20% smaller in size. Awesome, thanks for the advice!

Still a mystery why I can't get a half-decent mp4 straight out of Vegas (It would be handy for quick preview renders), but at least I've got a pipeline that works.

 

[ThrowgnCpr]

nice.

RE Vegas, can you give some screenshots of your render settings? Maybe we can help point to options for decent preview renders.

 

[TM2YC]

nice.

RE Vegas, can you give some screenshots of your render settings? Maybe we can help point to options for decent preview renders.

Thanks . As I said in the OP I've tried all kinds of mp4 settings but this was one of the selection of options I used that ended up with the extreme blocking I included in the screenshot (My input file is a 1280x720 15.6GB mp4 rip of my BD).

From the output select menu I choose...

MainConcept AVC/AAC (*.mp4;*.avc)

This is what it says in the various render menus...

 

[ThrowgnCpr]

Definitely check the box for Two-pass (Video tab). You could try the deblocking filter as well. Your bitrate seems sufficiently high enough though, I'm surprised your output looked that bad. I don't think I've ever rendered out on a single pass encode though.

Generally, no matter what you are encoding with, it's a good rule to use as many passes as possible. A lot of programs only give you a single pass or Two-pass option, but some (like MeGUI) allow for 3-4 or more.

 

[TM2YC]

Definitely check the box for Two-pass (Video tab). You could try the deblocking filter as well. Your bitrate seems sufficiently high enough though, I'm surprised your output looked that bad. I don't think I've ever rendered out on a single pass encode though.

Generally, no matter what you are encoding with, it's a good rule to use as many passes as possible. A lot of programs only give you a single pass or Two-pass option, but some (like MeGUI) allow for 3-4 or more.

(In Nero I've only used 2-pass for the final render as the 1st-pass is pretty good for any workprint needs.)

Okay, I tried it with 2-Pass, then deblocking and also 2-pass+deblocking.

The 2-Pass reduced the file size (Which I didn't expect) by about 10mb but wasn't dramatically different in quality but did take twice as long to encode. The deblocking made a big difference but outputed the same size file as with both options off (And took very little additional time).

So 1-pass+deblocking seems the best route for the quick previews I like to render (And occasionally upload and stream)...



^ It still doesn't look amazing but is decent enough for a quick preview I think. The overall detail reproduction seems better in the Nero encode, while the Vegas encoder seems to sacrifice the blurrier areas of the image in favour of the detailed portions in quite a dramatic way. It's probably just shots like this with a shallow depth of field that will look really bad due to the way it is calculating the compression.

Thanks, again.

 

[matrixgrindhouse]

TM2YC Not sure if this is related, but there's a very important quality-related issue I learned after lots of hassle in my early days with Vegas. On your clips on the timeline, right click them, select properties and select disable resample. For everything. I mean everything. It makes a huge difference. Also make sure "adjust source media to better match project or render settings" is unchecked in project properties. Full-resolution rendering quality to best in there as well.

 

[TV's Frink]

TM2YC Not sure if this is related, but there's a very important quality-related issue I learned after lots of hassle in my early days with Vegas. On your clips on the timeline, right click them, select properties and select disable resample. For everything. I mean everything. It makes a huge difference.

If you have a proper workflow, this seems really unnecessary. Lagarith AVI in, Lagarith AVI out, Bob's your uncle, you'll be sound as a pound.

 

[TM2YC]

TM2YC Not sure if this is related, but there's a very important quality-related issue I learned after lots of hassle in my early days with Vegas. On your clips on the timeline, right click them, select properties and select disable resample. For everything. I mean everything. It makes a huge difference.

Also make sure "adjust source media to better match project or render settings" is unchecked in project properties. Full-resolution rendering quality to best in there as well.

I tried the first and it didn't seem to make any difference to that shot being blocky. I'd set the latter two as you say ^ already from reading forum posts.

It's something to do with how Vegas is calculating how much information to use in that shot (It's making a poor choice for some reason). On a hunch I adjusted the timeline so the 60 second clip I've been rendering started earlier (and the shot in question occured a little later in the render) and there was less blocking. There was still quite an unpleasant ammount but it was reduced. So then I rendered 120 seconds with that shot in the middle and it was better again (Almost tolerable).

 

[TM2YC]

Maybe I'm not quite a newbie with Vegas anymore but occasionally I still run up against something it's doing for which I have NO IDEA why, where, how or when :-D. For some reason, it is reducing the contrast on the movie I'm editing (I've made no such adjustments)...



(^ Click to see fullsize screenshots)

As you can see ^ there is a marked difference but I didn't notice the issue until after the render. Then I went back and I noticed that the preview was giving the same effect (The preview and render look identical to my eye, so the issue clearly isn't at that stage). I've not edited, adjusted, recoloured, filtered, tweaked etc the clip in any way... I just dropped it into the timeline. Can anybody explain why this is happening and suggest what program setting I've got wrong?

Help me Vegas users... you're my only hope ;-).

 

[RollWave]

8bit vs 32bit color or gamma setting 1.000 vs 2.222.

Vegas renders that are darker than normal, one of these settings is normally the issue.

 

[TM2YC]

8bit vs 32bit color or gamma setting 1.000 vs 2.222.

Vegas renders that are darker than normal, one of these settings is normally the issue.

Coincidently, I figured that out a few hours ago :-D... but thanks for helping anyway. Render looking fine now .