Kevin Smith watched 'The Schumacher Cut' of Batman Forever (and a detailed breakdown of it)

[Bobson Dugnutt]

Batman Forever is one of those films where every faneditor has had a crack at it in some way, adding back deleted scenes, trimming the campiness and trying to rein in the over the top stuff. Rumours have always swirled that there was an early cut, that the director Joel Schumacher had preferred before WB forced recuts and re-edits (where have I heard this?).
Most notably, Shumacher was asked about the Red Book Edition in an interview, and sounded extremely positive about it.

"I'm wondering if you've seen something. There is an alternate version of the film, known as Batman Forever: Red Book Edition, where an editor with tremendous skills, nobody knows who, it was done anonymously, took the deleted scenes, and took the film and put it all back together and made a few little edits here and there to try to create the film that you've talked about wanting to have made over the years, something more serious and a little darker. It's a tremendous accomplishment, and even many people who criticized the theatrical release saw this version and loved it. It won the film many new fans, in other words. Have you seen this unofficial fan-edited Red Book Edition?"


Joel Schumacher: No! Can I see it? Is there any way I can thank the editor? You can certainly put a thank you from me, for loving it enough to do that and taking such care!

It always sounded like he wanted a new cut of the film out there, and there was talk of something being released in 2005 for the DVD, but nothing ever came except some deleted scenes.

But a few weeks ago, Kevin Smith said he had gotten ahold of the early director's cut somehow, and said he would review it and detail what was different. He kept to his word and talked about it with a friend of his. I listened to his dicussion and typed up everything that we now know about this cut of the film.

GENERAL THOUGHTS AND INFO
- Smith's friend Joe Black saw a 'special screening' of it and then got the cut afterwards on a USB
- he tried to use the 4k disc to make a higher quality version, did it for a month and got tired
- looks like it was off the AVID in 95, with a burnt in date
- 'Utterly watchable' (likely refering to the quality of the image, not the objective opinion of the material)
- said to be a better cut of the film
- TC was made into a 'toy movie'
- fits more with Schumacher's filmography (Lost Boys, Falling Down, etc.)
- was in post up to a point where it had the Elliot Goldenthal Batman March, but mostly had temp score with Batman '89, Batman Returns and Interview with the Vampire scores, all done by Danny Elfman
- 2hr 35min roughly (TC is 2hr 1min)
- Must've been a pre-test-screen cut


SPECIFICS
- opening is completely reorganised
- first scene is the deleted scene in Arkham, before cutting to the courtroom origin (shown later in the TC on a TV), before cutting back to the cell with the dead guard (deleted scene seen on the DVD without the courtroom part)
- not much more Tommy Lee Jones
- they ADR'ed a lot of Two-Face's lines in the theatrical cut
- meet Edward Nygma and spend time with him, working on the TV box before he meets Bruce
- Jon Favreau was in this as Wayne Industries financial advisor and he has lines, in some kind of scene with Bruce being surrounded with other Wayne Industries people
- Val Kilmer doesn't suit up as Batman until roughly 15 minutes in (TC has him as Batman in the opening scene)
- security guard doesn't have any lines (no 'oh my god its boiling acid')
- the dick grayson karate laundry is not in this cut
- Two-Faces line during Riddler's intro "and who the hell are you" was redubbed to be more over the top
- the glow thugs are all redubbed too
- Bruce has amnesia cause of being shot in the head, has to go into the cave and face his psyche, face the giant bat, and accept he is Batman Forever
- the giant bat sequence is in there
- the red book (father's diary) is important in this one, instead of bruce wanting to go see the movie, now its that thomas wayne wanted to go see the movie
- the third act, robin is useless and is captured twice
- holy rusted metal is in there
- Riddler at the end (in his glittery outfit) is all dubbed too, with louder and bigger dialogue
- Riddler's 'why can't i kill you' is not in this cut

A lot of really interesting info on what the film looked like at an earlier stage, and it seems like it did resemble the script that's been floating around for years.

Kevin Smith has stated he is screening this cut of the film on July 1st and August 25th, at his cinema in New Jersey. Would be great if someone could get out there and report on it, but its only a 200 seat theatre and tickets are sold out. Hopefully someone on the internet goes there and writes up a detailed review of it (or better yet steals the USB with the cut on it).

 

[Editzilla]

- Riddler's 'why can't i kill you' is not in this cut

I really hope that doesn't mean that Bruce's response was removed too, since that was the cap to Bruce's arc in the film.

 

[PanteraSteel]

I was gonna go, saw it too late, sold out.

the best part about this that I heard was that Tommy Lee's dialogue is much better. I never even considered it could be ADR. He's the worst part of the movie imo.

 

[Fan_of_Edits]

Bobson I sent you a PM

 

[Bobson Dugnutt]

After this was screened a few days ago, and people have talked about it online, specifically Reddit, I've compiled some more detailed notes about what was/wasn't in this cut.

- first scene is the deleted scene in Arkham, with Two-Face's doctor approaching his cell. He enters and walks towards what he thinks is Harvey Dent, before the body springs to the ceiling, tied by ropes to a broken skylight. The lightning outside illuminates 'THE BAT MUST DIE' written in blood on the wall.

- there is some kind of use of the Two-Face courtroom TV footage origin early on here, the script states that Bruce watches it in his office

- we go from the intro sequence at Arkham immediately to a slice of Bruce Wayne’s life up in the tower, where he’s swarmed with requests for various things by various secretaries. It’s a lightly comedic scene.

- Jon Favreau was in this scene as Wayne Industries financial advisor and he has lines, helping Bruce close a deal or something. Not impactful on the plot but he gets some dialogue.

- meet Edward Nygma and spend time with him, working on the TV box before he meets Bruce, and the whole meeting occurs as it does in the theatrical cut

- the Bat-Signal summon that ends the scene isn’t Chase trying to score a booty call, but rather, just a call for Batman to go to the bank that Two-Face is robbing.

- Val Kilmer doesn't suit up as Batman until roughly 15 minutes in (TC has him as Batman in the opening scene)

- they ADR'ed a lot of Two-Face's lines in the theatrical cut

- Two-Face gets additional dialogue at the bank before he meets Batman, including the “If the Bat wants to play, we’ll play” line that was heard in some trailers.

- security guard doesn't have any lines (no 'oh my god its boiling acid')

- during the helicopter fight in which he accuses Batman of being a "killer" like him. You can see it cut pretty deep for Batman.

- After Batman brings down the helicopter and falls into the water himself. A sort of quasi-dream sequence follows in which Bruce hallucinates about his parents’ deaths, with the voice echoing and overlapping. It’s surreal and helps to establish the memories of his past that torment him. In general, the subplot about his memories works better in this version because we actually see the memories surfacing throughout the film.

- After Nygma kills his boss Stickley, the scene of him revelling in the murder and then menacing the security camera is a bit longer and showcases his sinister side a bit more as he rants about how much he hates Bruce and wants to make him pay. He takes a magazine cover with Bruce Wayne and throws it on the ground. Not too tonally different but makes the scene a bit creepier.

- After Robin is convinced to stay, the scene continues for just a bit longer, showing him follow Alfred back into the mansion and hold the door open for him
when Chase teases Batman about preferring his women with "skin-tight vinyl and a whip", the soundtrack plays a couple notes from Danny Elfman's Catwoman theme.

- Two-Faces line during Riddler's introduction "and who the hell are you" was redubbed to be more over the top

- Batman getting his Batcomputer hacked, calling for him to go to a salon instead of Riddler and Two-Face robbing the Jewellers is not in this cut (DVD deleted scene)

- When Two-Face teaches Riddler to punch out guards and Riddler fails, Two-Face chides him for punching weakly and knocks out the guard himself.

- Dick and Bruce talking about pain as Dick spars with a punching bag with a picture of Two-Face is not in this cut (DVD deleted scene)

- Dick’s karate laundry is not in this cut

- Bruce’s 2nd meeting with Chase, in which she gives him the dream doll, starts earlier. It begins with an exterior shot of her office, while you hear Bruce having a conversation with her, and zooms in to reveal them. Notable dialogue includes a line in which Bruce says “thanks for the help with Dick.” Quite a heartwarming little addition, and shows the extent to which Bruce cares for Robin and help him navigate his own trauma of seeing his family die.

- the glow thugs are all redubbed in the final cut

- Robin hitting Batman in anguish continues for a little bit, and features Batman stoically standing there and continuing to take Robin’s blows while calmly telling him that he will do whatever he can to help. It seamlessly cuts to Robin’s dialogue in the next scene, where he tells Bruce that in order to help, he should help him kill Two-Face.

- after Alfred tells Bruce he should open up to Chase more, he turns on the news, with the caster saying that Batman should retire. Bruce has a crisis of faith, not knowing what he should be doing.

- When Nygma taunts Bruce for being too cowardly to try the new version of the Box, he has an additional line emasculating Bruce in front of Chase, basically telling him that he's embarrassing her by being too afraid, clearly trying to humiliate Bruce by attacking his masculinity.

- The scene in which he has a manor date with Chase plays out differently, with different dialogue. In the Final Cut, this scene does most of the heavy lifting with Bruce’s flashbacks, as he basically narrates to Chase how he became Batman. This flashback occurs after Chase knocks down a vase of flowers, triggering Bruce - the same thing happens in the work print but it’s instead framed as just another flare-up. Some of the flashback footage used in this scene was originally shown in the much earlier flashback when Batman fell in the water after blowing up Two-Face’s helicopter (namely, the footage of young Bruce falling down, though he isn’t shown actually falling into the cave as in the final). Interestingly, in the workprint, Chase doesn’t seem to catch on that Bruce is Batman because both of them react to Bruce’s flashback differently - he doesn’t narrate his past, instead just telling her that “it’s happening again” and the memories are coming back, and she just gives him generic clinical advice. Her finding out that he’s Batman by comparing the kiss is not present at all.

- there doesn't seem to be a big moment when Chase realises he is Batman. The shots where Chase touches her lips and smiles in wonder/realization seem to be additions to the final version

- Due to being shot in the head, he loses his memory temporarily, not remembering who Batman is while Alfred reminds him that he was knocked on the head. They head down to the Batcave where Alfred points out a cave entrance in the wall and Bruce asks what’s inside. Alfred tells him that his fears are inside, and he encourages him to go in and confront his past. The entrance leads to a large, natural-looking cave (not built out like the Batcave itself) which has a swarm of bats on the ceiling that Bruce briefly acknowledges, before turning his attention to the ground covered in rocks/sand. He brushes aside some sand and uncovers the old diary that he has dreamed so much about. He opens it up, flips open to the final entry, and learns that his parents had actively chosen to watch a different movie than he wanted (“Bruce’s cartoon will have to wait”). An emotional scene follows in which Bruce tears up, realizing that their death wasn’t his fault, and he repeats “Not my fault… not my fault…” This both reminds him of his Batman identity and gives him the resolve to resume being Batman, whereupon the giant bat finally appears (though it seemed pretty clear to me that it was meant to be imagery/symbolism rather than the actual massive bat physically being in the cave with him). It flies towards him, gets a couple of close-ups revealing its grotesque, terrifying, snarling face (it’s honestly pretty scary-looking with red glowing eyes looking straight at the camera). But Bruce stands and looks at it fearlessly, then the camera pans around them both as Bruce raises his arms to match the bat’s. The scene ends with Bruce coming out of the cave, telling Alfred that he’s Batman again, and ends with a cool visual of a flock of bats swarming out towards the camera.

- Riddler injecting Chase with a giant syringe is not in this cut

- Robin’s “Holy rusted metal Batman!” is in there

- Riddler at the end (in his glittery outfit) is all dubbed too, with louder and bigger dialogue for the final cut

- Two-Face’s final scene, of the coin landing in his palm as it slides with his corpse under the water, is not present - in the work print, the last we see of him is just him falling down the shaft

- The coda of the final fight in which Batman finds the drained Riddler who, frustrated, asks him how he can possibly be both Batman and Bruce. This scene is not present at all in the workprint.

- The final scene addition, which is pretty significant, is at the very end of the film (right before the ending of Batman/Robin running in front of the signal) - after Batman says goodbye to Chase, a scene shows Alfred talking to Chase in the car (shot from outside the windshield, in the style of similar scenes in the Burton films), in which Chase briefly converses with Alfred. She asks him if Batman’s work is going to go on forever, which Alfred affirms. Chase’s reaction to this is ambiguous, but she seems to smile and be okay with it, then it cuts to Batman and Robin in front of the signal.

- an alternate ending was shot in March 1995 (after this workprint had been edited) with Batman and Robin standing on a gargoyle overlooking the city. This is not in this cut.

I think creating an edit similar to this is possible, with there being not much missing footage. A lot of the deleted scenes that have been seen via other sources (promo images, trading cards, stickers, magazines, etc) are not in this cut at all, so it seems that Schumacher did cut out even more that a test audience never got to see.