Death Proof

[FatherMerrin]

Then you can't blame the girls for going after him.

If I can't blame them, then you can't justify them.

Like elbarto1 has already stated this is an homage to the grindhouse era of filmmaking and I don't know how many, if any, exploitation films you've seen but story is never really at the top of the list of things to do. These movies are made quick and on the cheap and that's what Tarantino was going for with Death Proof.

This is why I'm glad I brought this up on the forum. I'm happy to go along with the idea that Grindhouse movies are dumb so Death Proof being dumb shouldn't be an issue. My problem is I'm not sure whether DP is dumb because Tarantino meant it to be dumb or because of poor writing.

Yes, but when she was on the hood of the car holding on for dear life she was scared.

FC it's clear you & me won't agree as to what justifies an equal response to a situation. That's cool, I don't consider it to be a right or wrong issue.

I'm sorry but I didn't feel sorry for the guy, in fact I was cheering on the girls. He thought they were three helpless women that he could scare the hell out of but he didn't expect them to put their fear aside and turn the tables on him. The girls were not psychos they were just 3 women who had had enough of this guy's bullshit and decided to give him a taste of his own medicine. Would you feel any different if he had raped these women first?

Yep, I wouldn't of had a problem with them killing him then. Raping someone is worse than chasing someone in car.

Put yourself in their shoes. If you were in that car with the women wouldn't you want a little more satisfaction than chasing the guy and bumping into his car? The moral of the movie was that looks can be deceiving. Not every woman is as helpless as you may think and you better watch out who you piss off because it can back and bite you in the ass.

If that did happen to me I wouldn't of killed the guy. Beat him to within an inch of his life, hell yes, but as neither me or my friends were hurt I wouldn't of killed him. No matter how scared I was. The moral part, well it's Grindhouse so I'm not too worried about it's morals.

Just because they weren't physically harmed doesn't mean that they came out of the situation unhinged. Emotional terrorism is just as bad as physical terrorism.

True, but you don't know they came out the situation unhinged. You argument seems to be based on that emotional damage is just as bad as physical damage. We all agree the girls weren't physicaly damaged. So if the girls weren't emotionally damaged either would they still be justified in killing him?

His films aren't getting dumber it's just that now that he's an established director he can take chances and make the kind of films that he grew up watching and by doing so paying homage to his favorite genres.

Possibly, I still think there's a decline in the standard of his work. Be it because he's doing homages or be it because he's losing it as a writer. Either way I still think his latest films are dumb compared to his early work.

Tarantinos goal was to have the audience cheering for the women and the big payoff was the kill.

I know, it just didn't have that effect on me.

I took it as he had every intention of killing group 2 but underestimated them having a gun and being willing/able to fight back. isnt this how most serial killers are eventually caught, by underestimating their victims?

I agree, I just don't think what happened to them justified them killing him.

did group 2 have the right to kill SMM based on their experience alone? probably not - but the audience accepted it because we knew SMM's past and felt his fear/beating/death was deserved.

That's the problem for me at the heart of the film. What Tarantino is asking us to do is justify group 2's actions based on what happened to group 1.

besides, without SMM getting his brutal comeuppance we'd have a seriously weak film.

I agree completely. Please don't think I didn't want Stuntman Mike to get killed, I REALLY DID, I just don't think the end was handled very well.

I completely agree with everything you've just said elbarto.

did group 2 have the right to kill SMM based on their experience alone? probably not

FC, you agree with that? Cause that's my main problem with the film that you've been disagreeing with.

 

[Frantic Canadian]

If I can't blame them, then you can't justify them.

How do you figure that?

This is why I'm glad I brought this up on the forum. I'm happy to go along with the idea that Grindhouse movies are dumb so Death Proof being dumb shouldn't be an issue. My problem is I'm not sure whether DP is dumb because Tarantino meant it to be dumb or because of poor writing.

I'm pretty sure it was intentional. Tarantino can write a great movie, and he's certainly very good with dialogue, so I can't see him just winging it unless it was intentional. Like I already said this was an homage to grindhouse films of the past and they were made on the fly so either Tarantino wrote it quickly on purpose to mimick what grindhouse filmmakers had to do or he dumbed it down I don't know. Personally I don't have any problems with Death Proof, but then again I love grindhouse films. The only thing I'd change with Death Proof is that I'd put it as the first movie in the double bill. Planet Terror is a great action/horror/sci-fi film but Death Proof is a little slow in comparison and would probably work better as a lead-in to Planet Terror.

Yep, I wouldn't of had a problem with them killing him then. Raping someone is worse than chasing someone in car.

He wasn't just chasing them though he was intentionally ramming into them and he made them fear for their lives. I can understand that rape is certainly worse than death because you have to live the memory of what happened to you but, and I'm probably going to catch some flack for saying this, I don't think there's much difference here. He was going after them and scaring them half to death making them believe, probably rightfully so, that their lives were in danger if they didn't do something about. So what did they do? They turned the tables on him and gave him a dose of his own medicine. In a situation like that it's easy to lose control and maybe go a bit over the edge. I really can't blame them for what they did.

If that did happen to me I wouldn't of killed the guy. Beat him to within an inch of his life, hell yes, but as neither me or my friends were hurt I wouldn't of killed him. No matter how scared I was. The moral part, well it's Grindhouse so I'm not too worried about it's morals.

Sounds like you would have done the same thing. Beating someone to within an inch of their lives and beating them to death is pretty damn close to being the same thing if you ask me. And I don't really remember them killing him. I remember them taking turns punching and kicking him until he fell to the ground but iirc after he fell to the ground the shot froze and the credits started rolling. I don't think it's clear whether they killed him or not.

True, but you don't know they came out the situation unhinged. You argument seems to be based on that emotional damage is just as bad as physical damage. We all agree the girls weren't physicaly damaged. So if the girls weren't emotionally damaged either would they still be justified in killing him?

I believe that by showing the women being scared to death during their whole ordeal qualifies as them being emotionally terrorized.

Possibly, I still think there's a decline in the standard of his work. Be it because he's doing homages or be it because he's losing it as a writer. Either way I still think his latest films are dumb compared to his early work.

I'm not seeing a decline. I thought the Kill Bill movies had some great dialogue, and Vol.1 certainly had some great action as well. Death Proof was a great film too, certainly not to everyone's taste but a great film nonetheless.

I took it as he had every intention of killing group 2 but underestimated them having a gun and being willing/able to fight back. isnt this how most serial killers are eventually caught, by underestimating their victims?

I agree, I just don't think what happened to them justified them killing him.

That's probably only because they didn't let it get any further. What would Stuntman Mike have had to do for you to feel that they were justified in doing what they did?

That's the problem for me at the heart of the film. What Tarantino is asking us to do is justify group 2's actions based on what happened to group 1.

I don't think that's what he's doing at all. I think he's showing us what kind of person Stuntman Mike is and what kind of person he'd continue to be if it weren't for these three girls standing up for themselves and giving him a taste of what he was dishing out. Even if he hadn't shown us what he did to the first group of women, or to Rose McGowan when he gave her a "lift", I still think that he could have gotten his point across that Stuntman Mike was a bad dude. By showing him killing Rose McGowan and the first group of girls it just re-inforces what a bad dude he is and to what lenghts he'll go to and by doing so he makes us cheer for the girls when they decide to take him on at his own game.

FC, you agree with that? Cause that's my main problem with the film that you've been disagreeing with.

I agree with everything else in elbarto's post.

 

[theslime]

And I don't really remember them killing him. I remember them taking turns punching and kicking him until he fell to the ground but iirc after he fell to the ground the shot froze and the credits started rolling. I don't think it's clear whether they killed him or not.

I agree with most of what you said, but not this. Abbie moves in for the kill just after the freeze-frame and director credit. She has some pretty mean-looking boots on, and from the point of impact and the sound, I think she basically decapitates Stuntman Mike or at least crushes his larynx beyond repair. Also note that he didn't even move BEFORE she stomps him!

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There's no way he's getting up from that.

 

[Frantic Canadian]

Actually I just watched Death Proof again last night and she's just wearing cowboy boots and the kick is actually to his face, not his throat. Just because he's not moving doesn't mean that he's dead. He was just shot and in a car crash so it's more than likely that he's just unconscious.

 

[Ghostcut]

Quit yo' jibber jabber!

Now ah seen some damn boring movies in mah time but ah never seen one as damned BOOOOOOOOORING as this hunk o' crap. Old Tarry T's lost his touch.

 

[nOmArch]

 

[Uncanny Antman]

He was just shot and in a car crash so it's more than likely that he's just unconscious.

Unconscious? She caves his face completely in.

 

[Frantic Canadian]

After they finished taking turns punching him he fell to the ground and didn't move. She didn't kick him in the head until after he was already on the ground. I don't think it's possible for her to have caved his face in. First of all you can't tell for sure what damage was inflicted because the kick was shown in a wide shot, secondly she was only wearing cowboy boots and I don't think there was enough force to physically cave in his face and lastly if he did die it's more than likely due to internal bleeding caused by the car crash.

 

[Uncanny Antman]

The intention (cinematically speaking) of the final stomp is up to the individual I guess.

 

[joebshmoe]

i definitely got the vibe that he died. bloody murder, etc.

 

[gloomfrost]

Does anyone know if there is a fan edit with a version where Stuntman Mike wins? Either by cutting out the second half or editing it so the girls in the second half are wiped out as well? Always wanted to see a Stuntman Mike version

 

[njvc]

No idea re a fanedit, but I'd like to see that version too. Man that New Zealander chick annoys the hell out of me in the back half. Not sure how you'd achieve it though. Might require the magical powers of [MENTION=6566]TMBTM[/MENTION]

 

[Neglify]

Does anyone know if there is a fan edit with a version where Stuntman Mike wins? Either by cutting out the second half or editing it so the girls in the second half are wiped out as well? Always wanted to see a Stuntman Mike version

Watch UA's short on Chase Consecution.