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Creating a DVD with 23.976 480p material

lotrjjw

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I presume that basic DVD creating software would automatically add pulldown to 23.976 480p material if it doesnt actually give any options for it?
I ask as my editing software gave an export to DVD image and its certainly seemed to have done a nice job on it and media info is reporting:
ID : 224 (0xE0)Format : MPEG Video
Format version : Version 2
Format profile : Main@Main
Format settings, BVOP : Yes
Format settings, Matrix : Default
Format settings, GOP : M=3, N=18
Format settings, picture structure : Frame
Duration : 26mn 12s
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 5 240 Kbps
Maximum bit rate : 9 000 Kbps
Width : 720 pixels
Height : 480 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate : 29.970 fps
Standard : NTSC
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Interlaced
Scan order : Bottom Field First
Compression mode : Lossy
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.506
Time code of first frame : 00:00:00:00
Time code source : Group of pictures header
GOP, Open/Closed : Open
Stream size : 982 MiB (96%)
Specifically for file VTS_01_1.VOB on the DVD hence it only being 26 minutes 12 seconds long!

I also plan on creating a PAL version of the film on a PAL encoded DVD so Im wondering if the software I have will just apply pulldown or will it actually speed it up from 23.976 to 25fps? I guess I could make an image and test it though.
 

Captain Khajiit

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Some authoring software will probably add RFF flags for you, but I would always add them with my encoder or use DGPulldown. The info that you posted shows that your video is already 29.97fps though. I never use encoders that are built in to NLEs. Rather, I render a lossless AVI from the NLE and then use a third-party encoder. My preference is for HCenc, for which I have a guide.

You can't simply add flags to convert NTSC to PAL, because the frame-size has to change too: e.g. 720x480→720x756. If you're editing at NTSC resolution, upscaling to PAL is a waste of time, in my opinion, but I can show you how to do it if you like. Concentrate on finishing your NTSC disc first though.
 

lotrjjw

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I understand what you are saying. Im not sure I was clear in what I was asking, I had 23.976 footage in my editor, I asked it to make a DVD in NTSC format and I got what I asked for but I dont know if it added pulldown flags or if it did hardcoded pulldown which would be the most likely?
I get what you are saying about authoring a DVD in third party software I guess I will get a cleaner result.

As far as making a PAL DVD is concerned I know it wont be as good quality, but I did want to make it available as an alternative in case the NTSC version wont play correctly in some people's players, less likely I know but Im curious to know how.
I know it will need to be upscaled to 720x576 Im thinking specifically about frame rate conversion can you pulldown from 23.976 to 25 or will it need to be sped up? If pulldown I imagine it would need hardcoding so a PAL player wouldnt get confused?

I am of course concentrating on making a good NTSC DVD first though.
 

Captain Khajiit

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lotrjjw said:
II had 23.976 footage in my editor, I asked it to make a DVD in NTSC format and I got what I asked for but I dont know if it added pulldown flags or if it did hardcoded pulldown which would be the most likely?

It depends on the software and how you configured it, but I'd guess it's the latter. I'd need to look at a sample of the ouput to be sure.

I get what you are saying about authoring a DVD in third party software I guess I will get a cleaner result.

I didn't say authoring: I said encoding. Some software does both, but the two processes are distinct.


As far as making a PAL DVD is concerned I know it wont be as good quality, but I did want to make it available as an alternative in case the NTSC version wont play correctly in some people's players, less likely I know but Im curious to know how.

Virtually all PAL equipment plays NTSC perfectly. If playback is the only thing that made you want to make a PAL DVD, don't bother. The NTSC disc will play fine.

can you pulldown from 23.976 to 25 or will it need to be sped up? If pulldown I imagine it would need hardcoding so a PAL player wouldnt get confused?

Speeding up the video is the better way to do, but neither soft nor hard pulldown should present problems for PAL players.
 

lotrjjw

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Captain Khajiit said:
It depends on the software and how you configured it, but I'd guess it's the latter. I'd need to look at a sample of the ouput to be sure.
I used VideoPad someone on this site recommended it and it seems to work very well, I found editing in it a breeze.


Captain Khajiit said:
I didn't say authoring: I said encoding. Some software does both, but the two processes are distinct.
OK sorry getting terms mixed up, Im still a little new to this game.



Captain Khajiit said:
Virtually all PAL equipment plays NTSC perfectly. If playback is the only thing that made you want to make a PAL DVD, don't bother. The NTSC disc will play fine.
Im sure the player will play it but if someone has an old TV the TV might refuse to display it. I know modern flatscreens are able to cope just fine but older CRTs can be an issue. I have a couple of old SONY Trinitron potables kicking around and being in PAL land I know that if you feed them NTSC they display in B&W, nothing I can do will make them display in colour unless they get a PAL colour signal.

Also knowing how will mean if I ever need to mix my sources I know how to.


Captain Khajiit said:
Speeding up the video is the better way to do, but neither soft nor hard pulldown should present problems for PAL players.

Thats good to know.
 

Captain Khajiit

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Your program converted 23.976fps to 29.97fps by doubling every fourth frame rather than by applying RFF flags. That is the wrong way to do it.

If NTSC DVDs display as black and white on your PAL CRTs, check the settings of your DVD player or otherwise buy a decent player that will make the conversion. These days, there's no excuse for a PAL player not to be able to make the conversion.
 

lotrjjw

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Ah I see why third party software for creating DVDs is best if my editing software is doing that, but at least it makes an OK tester, just not for final release!
Thankfully my editor can output AVI, MPEG2 and MPEG4, possibly others too. It can also output BluRay ISOs too but I bet they wont be that good either.

I have a DVD player that can convert NTSC to PAL but it does a bad job as it also converts resolution and frame rate on the fly badly!
I mainly use my BluRay player now though which will send NTSC out as NTSC and PAL as PAL it wont convert colour signals on DVDs or BluRays on its analogue outs, however I normally use it with my HDTV over HDMI so for me thats not an issue for me.
I guess its more a curiosity wanting to create a PAL version.
 

lotrjjw

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Captain Khajiit do I need to demux the audio from my newly created AVI before turning it into a DVD?
If so which software do I use?
I read your guide on encoding to a DVD and it didn't say much about the process before actuallying encoding the file back to a DVD.
 

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lotrjjw said:
Captain Khajiit do I need to demux the audio from my newly created AVI before turning it into a DVD?
If so which software do I use?
I read your guide on encoding to a DVD and it didn't say much about the process before actuallying encoding the file back to a DVD.

That's because my guide to encoding is a guide to encoding – nothing more. I put the answers to a number of other fanediting questions in the FAQ because I became tired of typing them over and over again and because it was a convenient place to put them.

If your rendered lossless AVI contains audio, you don't need to demux it before encoding with HCenc, because it encodes only video and will ignore the audio. But I always render video and audio separately and advise you to do the same. It's better (where possible) to feed elementary streams to DVD authoring software; I use DVD-Lab PRO 2.
 

lotrjjw

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I see I didnt see an option to render out video and audio separately in my editing software, in fact I have now tried several times to render out a useable AVI and so far it doesnt seem to want to give me one. 1 attempt was out of sync and the other one just didnt play.
It will however give me a perfectly useable MP4 version of my edit, now I know you say render out a lossless AVI, but will an MP4 work to be converted to a DVD?

Also while Im sure DVD-Lab PRO 2 is good I looked it up and its not free, so Im wondering what good free alternatives there are?
 

Captain Khajiit

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lotrjjw said:
I see I didnt see an option to render out video and audio separately in my editing software, in fact I have now tried several times to render out a useable AVI and so far it doesnt seem to want to give me one. 1 attempt was out of sync and the other one just didnt play.

VideoPad isn't very good.

It will however give me a perfectly useable MP4 version of my edit, now I know you say render out a lossless AVI, but will an MP4 work to be converted to a DVD?

It will work, but multiple lossy recompressions are a bad idea when it comes to quality.

Also while Im sure DVD-Lab PRO 2 is good I looked it up and its not free, so Im wondering what good free alternatives there are?

There are free authoring options but none that are particularly good. You're going to have a hard time producing a high-quality fanedit without spending any money at all. I suggest that you look at the Vegas Movie Studio packages that include basic DVD authoring programs.
 

lotrjjw

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I see, well I think for the time being I will have to just work with what I have freely available to me, but in the future I will look to actually buy something that will work. Is Vegas Movie Studio reasonably priced? Edit I looked on Amazon it is just about what I am prepared to pay for something like this seeing as I wont actually be making any money by making fan edits! It will mean I can edit well and do Bluray which Im looking to do in the future.

Also what would be the procedure for converting a MP4 to DVD format?
I suppose there is also the option of outputting MPEG2 from videopad, if it works out to be useful and if that will convert better than MPEG4?
 

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You would have to decode the MP4 with FFmpegSource2, which is mentioned in my decoding guide. Again, I don't recommend it.
 

lotrjjw

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OK fair enough what about MPEG2? the same? That is considering its the MPEG format DVDs use?
I am of course trying an AVI first though, maybe it will output a useable AVI for me?
 

Captain Khajiit

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MPEG-2 has worse compression than MPEG-4, so it's an even worse intermediary.
 

lotrjjw

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Ah Ok so an MPEG 4 is the best alternative to AVI in this instance but AVI is better of course.
 
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