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Batman (Burton/Schumacher)

QuickCut

Well-known member
Faneditor
Cover Artist
I've been rewatching these on Blu-ray. The first time I saw the two Burton films, I didn't really care for them. This time, I loved them. Batman Forever was just as terrible as I remembered. Now... all that is left is Batman & Robin, a watching experience which I am not looking forward to repeating... :|

The one thing that really wowed me about the Burton films was the art direction. That Gothic architecture and those beautifully painted mattes...
 

TomH1138

Well-known member
I loved the first Burton film, didn't care for Returns, liked Forever a little better in some senses, and then with B&R, the franchise just went completely off the rails.

BTW, I didn't realize in my earlier reading today that you were the one writing these posts, QC. I was still expecting to see Calvin instead of the Incredible Hulk. :)
 

QuickCut

Well-known member
Faneditor
Cover Artist
TomH1138 said:
BTW, I didn't realize in my earlier reading today that you were the one writing these posts, QC. I was still expecting to see Calvin instead of the Incredible Hulk. :)

Haha, I'll probably go back to the old Calvin standby once I'm done with the shameless self-promotion ;)

The thing I didn't like about Returns was that there were many strange aspects to it, but it's Tim Burton's film, so I guess, what can you expect? I actually didn't like it at all until the third time I saw it, when I started to really appreciate it for some reason. I guess it's just because it's a nice old fashioned good vs. evil story with a solid plot, convincing acting, and some exciting action sequences. I agree, Forever did have some good parts, but the corniness of the script just ruined it :-(
 

TomH1138

Well-known member
I hear what you're saying.

My main problem with Returns is that DeVito's Penguin is so twisted as to be completely off-putting to watch. Almost all of the scenes with Michelle Pfieffer as Catwoman are great. If I did a fan edit of Returns, I would mainly just cut out all of the Penguin's scenes.

Also, the storyline is occasionally incomprehensible. For instance: The Penguin brings Max Shreck down into his lair to tell Shreck that he (Penguin) exists, and then . . . what, exactly? What was his purpose? Later on, Shreck throws a big party for Penguin to get him to run for Mayor. But Penguin is completely taken off guard by Shreck's actions. He's standing there with the raw fish in his mouth, totally stunned. Then Penguin's ascenscion to power becomes the whole focus of the story. So what was Penguin's original plan? Did he expect that Shreck would eventually throw a surprise party for him??

After the grimness of Returns, Forever seemed (at first) like a breath of fresh air. There were some silly parts, but it looked like the filmmakers might be getting back on the right track. I actually remember thinking, "If the filmmakers can focus on what worked in Forever and get rid of the silliness, then the next film might be even better!"

From the previews to Batman and Robin, though, I could tell that the filmmakers had totally missed the point and had made the new movie even sillier. I didn't even want to see it. I was dragged to it by a friend, who insisted, "It's Batman. How bad could it be?"

Even at that, I don't (now) regret having seen it (once). It's become the default thing to go to in any discussion where you want to make a point about how much a franchise can go off the rails. If I hadn't seen the movie, I couldn't make those comparisons and analogies! :)
 

Neglify

Well-known member
Faneditor
TomH1138 said:
Also, the storyline is occasionally incomprehensible. For instance: The Penguin brings Max Shreck down into his lair to tell Shreck that he (Penguin) exists, and then . . . what, exactly? What was his purpose? Later on, Shreck throws a big party for Penguin to get him to run for Mayor. But Penguin is completely taken off guard by Shreck's actions. He's standing there with the raw fish in his mouth, totally stunned. Then Penguin's ascenscion to power becomes the whole focus of the story. So what was Penguin's original plan? Did he expect that Shreck would eventually throw a surprise party for him??

Penguin wanted Max Shreck to help him discover the names of his biological parents (at least that's what he told Shreck). We later learn

of his plan to kill all the first born sons of Gotham.

Now I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think that was Penguin's plan all along, but it could have been a plan he came up with later on.
 

QuickCut

Well-known member
Faneditor
Cover Artist
Well, good job finding some redemption for seeing Batman & Robin ;-)

The Penguin is undoubtedly disgusting, and I think that he could still be a solid villain if some of his fish eating and nose biting and bile spewing antics were cut. When the Penguin kidnaps Shreck, he makes a deal with him: if Max will help him return to normality, he will keep some of Max's more illegal actions secret. However, the Penguin is still surprised, because he did not realize that Shreck would try to help him run for mayor.

I like how all the different subplots (the Penguin's rise to power, Shreck's shady dealings, Selena's transformation to Catwoman, Bruce's life as Batman, and Bruce and Selena's romance) all are woven together very nicely to form one solid storyline.
 

TomH1138

Well-known member
Thanks, Neglify and QC. I've brought up my confusion with Returns' plot before, and even people who liked Returns were unable to explain to me what was going on in those scenes! Your explanations do make a great deal of sense.

Here's a conversation I recently had with a friend that shows why it was useful for me to see Batman and Robin:

ME: I used to think Phantom Menace was an OK movie - not great, just average. But now I see that it's as bad as Batman and Robin.
FRIEND: Actually, it's WORSE than Batman and Robin. B&R doesn't affect any other Batman movies. Phantom Menace actually ruins other Star Wars movies by its very existence!
ME: Wow. . . . You're right!

You see how necessary B&R was for the context of that conversation? ;)
 

TM2YC

Staff Member
Donor
Faneditor
A discussion about why Batman 1989 is rubbish (a view I don't subscribe to but an interesting analysis none the less):

 
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