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Introducing Kids To Star Wars
#31
(04-10-2018, 01:53 PM)Moe_Syzlak Wrote: If you look at Campbell’s Hero’s Journey it’s all right there. The hero’s journey doesn’t end at happily ever after.

Again, I'm fine with that - I'm fine with conflict.  My suggestion doesn't have Luke "happily ever after" - he's struggling to deal with a failure or loss, or not having enough information or knowledge to overcome an obstacle.  It's just a conflict more in tone with his character.
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#32
(04-10-2018, 01:49 PM)Detective Wrote: My issue isn't with the conflict, it's the fact that it doesn't seem like Luke.

If by "he" you mean Johnson, then I couldn't disagree more. He cared enough to make Luke a rich and interesting character, and in a way that I feel is a logical continuation of the Luke we know from the OT.


(04-10-2018, 01:49 PM)Detective Wrote: I want my kids to see that it's bad to seek death, and it's good to seek peace and the well-being of others.

I hope you also want to show your kids that life is hard, and that the world is much more complicated than a binary good/bad, right/wrong split. Sometimes good people do bad things. Additionally, as TM2YC pointed out, life can take it's toll. In addition to all that shit listed above, Luke also saw a child (that of his sister and close friend) go over the edge to the dark side based on a momentary gut reaction.

To expect that Luke will just keep shrugging off everything that has been thrown at him and respond with "LET'S GO GET THE BADDIES' is ridiculous.

I don't want to see any more films, Star Wars or otherwise, with paper thin cliched good guys fighting the baddies. Especially entwined in any religious codes or prophecies.
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#33
(04-10-2018, 02:03 PM)Detective Wrote:
(04-10-2018, 01:53 PM)Moe_Syzlak Wrote: If you look at Campbell’s Hero’s Journey it’s all right there. The hero’s journey doesn’t end at happily ever after.

Again, I'm fine with that - I'm fine with conflict.  My suggestion doesn't have Luke "happily ever after" - he's struggling to deal with a failure or loss, or not having enough information or knowledge to overcome an obstacle.  It's just a conflict more in tone with his character.

But that’s not the Hero’s Journey of which Luke’s entire arc has been based.
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#34
Quote:I like Vader at the end of R1 because he's evil -and death and destruction is what bad people do.  I want my kids to see that it's bad to seek death, and it's good to seek peace and the well-being of others.

But is that really consistent with Vader's character? Isn't he usually more tactical than brutal? If he had used a force pull instead of announcing his presence with the big red glowy light sword, he could have retrieved the plans. Instead, he kills a bunch of people while the plans are passed by hand and manage to get out of his reach. About an hour later, in Episode 4, when they catch the ship, he says "Commander, tear this ship apart until you've found those plans! And bring me the passengers, I want them alive!"

If he's evil and all about death and destruction, why do the passengers need to be alive? Especially as an afterthought, separate from retrieving the plans? If it's about finding the rebel base, why'd he kill all those rebels earlier?


(04-10-2018, 01:49 PM)Detective Wrote: I would have been happy if Luke was figuring out what, if anything, he did wrong in training Kylo, and how to defeat Snoke/help the Republic.

That doesn't sound like something that he'd be doing for 30 years, because he already knows what went wrong with Kylo. Kylo was being trained by Luke but tempted by Snoke. By trying to confront Kylo/stop Snoke/help the Republic, he drove Kylo full speed into Snoke's grasp. Anyone in that sort of scenario would consider the possibility that the results of their interference, regardless of intent, might be negative BECAUSE the interference took place at all. As such, the only course of action would be to remove one's self from the equation. 

To bring this back on topic, I think this would be an interesting topic to discuss with a kid. How relatable is TLJ Luke to a kid who feels like they don't really have much control in their life, and who is unsure about morality and ethics in grey areas of life? I don't know but I'd guess very relatable. Like, 'wow, this stuff is even hard for grownups to navigate'.
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#35
My girls love the OT, they love Luke in the OT, and they love Luke in TLJ. /shrug
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#36
(04-10-2018, 02:06 PM)ThrowgnCpr Wrote: I don't want to see any more films, Star Wars or otherwise, with paper thin cliched good guys fighting the baddies.

If so, I'm curious how you view Rey.

(04-10-2018, 03:09 PM)TVs Frink Wrote: My girls love the OT, they love Luke in the OT, and they love Luke in TLJ. /shrug

Cool, glad they do.  I've heard other stories of kids not liking nor understanding what was going on in TLJ and why Luke was the way he was (and I personally am more on that side of the fence) so I plan on holding back until they're older.

(04-10-2018, 02:37 PM)addiesin Wrote: To bring this back on topic, I think this would be an interesting topic to discuss with a kid. How relatable is TLJ Luke to a kid who feels like they don't really have much control in their life, and who is unsure about morality and ethics in grey areas of life? I don't know but I'd guess very relatable. Like, 'wow, this stuff is even hard for grownups to navigate'.

I agree for that topic of discussion for an early teenager more so than a kid.  (I'm guessing we're making the distinction for introducing kids to Star Wars vs teenagers)  In my opinion, a kid should be learning that stealing and lying is wrong, not being selfish, treating others as you want to be treated, etc.  But then again, every kid is different; some may be ready for that conversation before others are.  (and I also understand that not every parent wants to teach their kids any objective moral values)
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#37
(04-11-2018, 06:39 AM)Detective Wrote:
(04-10-2018, 02:37 PM)addiesin Wrote: To bring this back on topic, I think this would be an interesting topic to discuss with a kid. How relatable is TLJ Luke to a kid who feels like they don't really have much control in their life, and who is unsure about morality and ethics in grey areas of life? I don't know but I'd guess very relatable. Like, 'wow, this stuff is even hard for grownups to navigate'.

I agree for that topic of discussion for an early teenager more so than a kid.  (I'm guessing we're making the distinction for introducing kids to Star Wars vs teenagers)  In my opinion, a kid should be learning that stealing and lying is wrong, not being selfish, treating others as you want to be treated, etc.  But then again, every kid is different; some may be ready for that conversation before others are.  (and I also understand that not every parent wants to teach their kids any objective moral values)

Well I didn't mean YOUR kid. You don't plan on showing them TLJ so they won't have an opinion on Luke. Given that I'm talking non-specifically, the age is a wide range. I would still call an early teenager a kid. And I think they'd like Luke.
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#38
(04-11-2018, 06:39 AM)Detective Wrote:
(04-10-2018, 02:06 PM)ThrowgnCpr Wrote: I don't want to see any more films, Star Wars or otherwise, with paper thin cliched good guys fighting the baddies.

If so, I'm curious how you view Rey.

I quite like Rey's character. I'm sure you're hinting at the Mary Sue argument, and I hold that this remains a weak and sexist argument. I liken Rey's abilities with the Force to any child or young person that shows incredible talent in something. I also love how her character brings back the gist of the Force from the OT. The bloodline/midichlorian/prophecy stuff from the PT was deflating and uninteresting.

I also feel that Rey's character is very similar to that of a young Luke. She has an inherent, unexplored talent for the Force and is passionate and headstrong (like many young adults). I don't find Luke's behavior or attitude 40 years later surprising or out of character. In fact, I would be shocked if he were the same impassioned leap-first do-gooder he was when he was 19 years old.  I also don't expect or require as a viewer see all of the events that happen in that 40 year span to accept how a character is portrayed. It is a logical progression in my mind.  I expect that the next 40 years of Rey's life, whatever that holds, will be challenging, and it will alter who she is as a person. At ~40 years old myself, I can assure you that I am nothing like my 19 year old self.

To bring this back on topic, I think that Rey is a fantastic character for kids. More than any character before in the saga, it shows that with a combination of natural talent and drive, anyone can do good and be important. No royal bloodlines or prophecies apply.
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#39
Rey has a lot of natural raw talent, but as Throw says, she's also headstrong, which can easily lead to recklessness. As we see in TLJ, she even feels a pull to the dark side. All these things alone should be enough to debunk the Mary Sue argument. I think that a lot of people who label her a "Mary Sue" are really just peeved that she picks up force powers so quick, and aren't really looking at her character as a whole.

Edit: sorry - just realised I'm pulling this back off topic again!
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#40
(04-11-2018, 08:22 AM)ThrowgnCpr Wrote:
(04-11-2018, 06:39 AM)Detective Wrote:
(04-10-2018, 02:06 PM)ThrowgnCpr Wrote: I don't want to see any more films, Star Wars or otherwise, with paper thin cliched good guys fighting the baddies.

If so, I'm curious how you view Rey.

I quite like Rey's character. I'm sure you're hinting at the Mary Sue argument, and I hold that this remains a weak and sexist argument. I liken Rey's abilities with the Force to any child or young person that shows incredible talent in something. I also love how her character brings back the gist of the Force from the OT. The bloodline/midichlorian/prophecy stuff from the PT was deflating and uninteresting.

I also feel that Rey's character is very similar to that of a young Luke. She has an inherent, unexplored talent for the Force and is passionate and headstrong (like many young adults). I don't find Luke's behavior or attitude 40 years later surprising or out of character. In fact, I would be shocked if he were the same impassioned leap-first do-gooder he was when he was 19 years old.  I also don't expect or require as a viewer see all of the events that happen in that 40 year span to accept how a character is portrayed. It is a logical progression in my mind.  I expect that the next 40 years of Rey's life, whatever that holds, will be challenging, and it will alter who she is as a person. At ~40 years old myself, I can assure you that I am nothing like my 19 year old self.

To bring this back on topic, I think that Rey is a fantastic character for kids. More than any character before in the saga, it shows that with a combination of natural talent and drive, anyone can do good and be important. No royal bloodlines or prophecies apply.

I'm not hinting at a Mary Sue argument - I'm hinting that she is just as "cliched good guy" and binary as Luke was in the OT.  But I agree and I like that aspect of her character too - someone simply "with a good heart".  Neither of them have any wavering in their sense of doing the right thing, regardless of the horrible things going on around them - that's who they are.

People change over 40 years of life, but how common is it to get to Luke's level of apathy in TLJ from the personality of Luke in the OT - especially after he had succeeded in his goal?  It's a complete 180.  Usually the angry old hermit comes from a cynical life-weary traveller who was mistreated by those they cared about most.  The journey just isn't realistic to me. Great if you all think it is - that's fine - I just don't see it.  Maybe if we were taken on the journey instead of just told about it it would be more believable, but that's not what we got.

I also agree and disliked the midichorlian/prophecy/bloodline stuff of the PT - anyone should be able to train and sense and move with the Force.  Some may find it easier to do so more than others - but all can access the Force on some level, and can improve with practice and hard work - yes - that is a much better foundation for a story for kids.
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