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blueyoda

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Very interesting article about the caveats of modern sound mixing and why we can't understand dialog like we could 20 years ago.


1-its-a-purposeful-choice-1638292394.webp
 

Moe_Syzlak

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Cool, I’ll read this later. I love the theater experience but as someone with a congenital hearing loss where I hear high highs and low lows better than average but the midrange much worse than average, movies have been increasingly frustrating for me. I can turn on subtitles at home so I’m definitely more apt to watch more movies at home these days. Dune was a good recent example. I loved seeing it in the theater, but I realized how much dialogue I missed watching it at home with subtitles a week later.
 

Moe_Syzlak

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Modern films: hard to hear dialogue.
Nolan films: can't hear dialogue.
Dune: "this is a trend we need to take to the next level."
Those guys are definitely in the mutual admiration society. I like the films of both (though Villeneuve more consistently), but I’m not a fan of the sound design and score choices of either.

Edit: I’ve read the article now. It’s mostly what I would’ve guessed but there’s some interesting things I wouldn’t have guessed. I’m sure I’ll sound like “old man yells at cloud” but I really think digital filmmaking is sucking the soul out of movies. It makes it easy to constantly change things, but sometimes that commitment—that performing without a net—is exactly what’s needed. It’s the malfunctioning shark. When faced with limited options, creativity is sparked. When given unlimited options, I think you can lose yourself. But I digress.
 
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spence

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The thing with Nolan is unacceptable to me. Making an "artistic choice" to make the dialogue difficult to hear is a bad decision anyway, but one I could maybe understand on an experimental indie film. Dude makes Batman movies. I want to hear what they're saying.
 

Moe_Syzlak

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I suspect there’s at least one more element not really addressed in the article due to sound designers not wanting to burn bridges: frequencies. I notice a lot of times when dialogue is particularly difficult to discern (and remember I’m especially sensitive to it), there is a lot of competing sound. When music, effects and dialogue are all competing you have to be especially careful about what frequencies each is occupying. When I was studying jazz at Manhattan School of Music long ago, it was a point of emphasis for comping. Since the music is improvised, musicians have to be especially cognizant of what frequencies they are playing in so as to not cancel out the soloist. Understanding what frequencies each soloist operates in will change the way I comped on the guitar. Sound designers obviously know this much better than me, but I think they get overruled because the director wants certain elements in the shot. And, as mentioned in the article, the SD doesn’t get the respect he, she or they should.
 

ranger613

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The thing with Nolan is unacceptable to me. Making an "artistic choice" to make the dialogue difficult to hear is a bad decision anyway, but one I could maybe understand on an experimental indie film. Dude makes Batman movies. I want to hear what they're saying.
Agreed. Makes an already convoluted film even more inaccessible
 

The Scribbling Man

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I suspect there’s at least one more element not really addressed in the article due to sound designers not wanting to burn bridges: frequencies. I notice a lot of times when dialogue is particularly difficult to discern (and remember I’m especially sensitive to it), there is a lot of competing sound. When music, effects and dialogue are all competing you have to be especially careful about what frequencies each is occupying. When I was studying jazz at Manhattan School of Music long ago, it was a point of emphasis for comping. Since the music is improvised, musicians have to be especially cognizant of what frequencies they are playing in so as to not cancel out the soloist. Understanding what frequencies each soloist operates in will change the way I comped on the guitar. Sound designers obviously know this much better than me, but I think they get overruled because the director wants certain elements in the shot. And, as mentioned in the article, the SD doesn’t get the respect he, she or they should.

^^ absolutely. I think the article alludes to something of that sort but doesn't go into any sort of detail. As someone who has recently finished spending a ton of time finalising mixes with an engineer, I can say it's quite the challenge to get vocals heard when you've got a crap ton of layers.
 

Possessed

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The frequencies is certainly a thing. You can tell on mixes of older movies that the dialog definitely had low frequencies cut and the mid frequencies boosted, which allowed them to always shine through crystal clear. (This may not be the exact way to describe it but you know what i mean. ) Its a thing used in music mixing on midrange instruments as well, such as guitar.

Newer mixes seem to not do this as much... which i kindof understand because it allows the voices to sound more full and "rich"... but i think they should go back to at least a middle ground. (Which is something the SD would probably agree with but as has been said they don't get enough respect and are overruled). Late 90s/early 2000s movies seem to be in a sweet spot (most of the time) where the voices sound full enough but also clear and direct in the mix. Newer mixes don't seem to dial in the eq on the voices enough.
 

asterixsmeagol

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When I listen to music, I tend to have the bass slightly elevated over mid and treble ranges. When I listen to podcasts or audiobooks, I typically raise the mid range all the way and lower bass and treble all the way down. It does decrease audio quality slightly, but it makes it way easier for me to understand what they're saying.
 

Possessed

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There's something to be said for 80s and earlier sound mixes where the dialog was always very mid heavy with little bass and with heavy drc. (The mixes as a whole weren't heavy drc, just the dialog). It sounded a bit tinny, but you could always understand them and it was always clear without covering up the music or sound effects.

I don't necessarily think we need to go back to THAT extreme or anything... but like I said I think late 90s and early 2000s sound mixes usually had a happy balance between the old and new style of dialog mixing.
 

Hal9000

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Interesting read. I also found myself relieved during Dune halfway through when I decided to turn on subtitles. I attributed it to having trouble tracking a list of sci-fi names for things that I was not already familiar with. And being tired.
 

TinyBreadMouse

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Was thinking about this while seeing No Way Home. Honestly, very impressive sound mixing. I don't believe there was a line I missed, even during the action sequences.
 

TM2YC

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A little thing about modern soundmixing that has become like nails on a blackboard for me is smoking. They always put this burn sound onto a cigarette mixed high in the mix like it was a freakin' dynamite fuse. Not everything has to make a loud sound. It just reminds me that I'm watching/hearing something artificial.

No sound required:


I remembered this brouhaha from 2014: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-27142035

Where the BBC Director General had to apologise for the actors mumbling.
 
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