Warning - ridiculously long post ahead!
Thanks once again for your detailed "nitpickings", Haltiamieli! And this time, I'll be able to consider them for the DVD release.
Thanks once again for your detailed "nitpickings", Haltiamieli! And this time, I'll be able to consider them for the DVD release.
I seem to remember that I considered cutting it like that, but for some reason chose not to. I can't recall why, though, so I'll have to take another look at it. Your "this is Gandalf's flashback" argument is very valid, so I'll probably end up following your suggestion.Haltiamieli said:But when Gandalf has been thrown to the roof, I'd think it would be better to start the next scene with Gandalf awakening, not with a tree being cut - for two reasons: this is Gandalf's flashback, so it would be logical to stay with him as much as possible, and besides the destruction scenery seen from the top of Orthanc, with little torch fires far below etc, is quite awesome. It loses some of its power when we've seen a tree falling down already before.
Yes, you're absolutely right. Shouldn't be too hard to remove.Haltiamieli said:Then there's the scene where we see the preparations of war in the new-delved dungeons. If possible (here as in elsewhere, I can't know how the soundtrack affects possibilities of my proposed cuts), I'd cut the few shots where Saruman himself is briefly seen - as he happens to be on the top of the tower in the beginning of the very next scene, this is a bit confusing.
I probably won't be doing that, as I kinda like the cut from orcs hammering on swords to Saruman smashing Gandalf to the floor.Haltiamieli said:Brace yourself for yet another stupid suggestion: what if a short shot could be added between these two scenes, to establish passage of time and moving from place to place.
I never had any problems with the line, but as you mentioned, this is Gandalf's flashback, so yeah, it might be best to cut it.Haltiamieli said:And again, I'd like this to stay with Gandalf, so maybe Saruman's line "So you have chosen... death." (which is a bit lame anyway) after Gandalf's escape could be cut?
Well, I really like the shot, and I don't think cutting it would change the pacing or anything, so I can't really see a reason to cut it, but I'll take a look at how it'll flow without it.Haltiamieli said:And as Gandalf has now escaped and the main point of flashback has been delivered, I would even suggest cutting of the beautiful shot where Gandalf and Gwaihir are flying over sunlit mountains.
Yeah, I'm not entirely satisfied with that transition, so I'll probably alter it in some way for the DVD.Haltiamieli said:Maybe the musical theme played when the ring descends to the bottom of the river could be a little less loud? It stands out a bit, coming and going off quite quickly, and the following music being quite different.
To give credit where credit is due, I stole that brilliant idea from spelledarens edit, Tale of the Fellowship.Haltiamieli said:The way you moved the Council scene a little earlier and the way it completely altered the meaning and character motivations of the following Narsil scene (with the cuts made there) is one of the ingenious, surprising decisions which really make these edits of yours stand out.
You're right. I must have missed that one.Haltiamieli said:However, if my computer doesn't fool me, there's one quite loud footstep audible before the scene changes from the Council to Boromir approaching Narsil, when Merry is looking at Pippin.
I agree.Haltiamieli said:I think that the new meaning of this scene wouldn't suffer if this one glance would be cut.
Yeah, a straight cut between the two felt weird, because it doesn't make it clear enough that it's the following morning. So with a straight cut, it feels like Aragorn is sharing a romantic kiss with Arwen only to run off right afterwards - which would, of course, be a weird thing for him to do.Haltiamieli said:Cutting from Aragorn and Arwen's talk on the bridge to Legolas descending stair and then to Aragorn and Elrond on Gilraen's memorial feels somewhat strange, as does the change from the memorial scene to Bilbo and Frodo (all the more because both of the latter ones deal with swords, just two very different ones). But I suppose as you've deliberately put Legolas shot there, that straight transmission from bridge scene to Gilraen's memorial wouldn't work?
I'm not sure I'll be able to do anything about that, but I'll give it some thought.Haltiamieli said:On the Caradhras scene Saruman's voice is still quite recognisable, maybe it could be treated somewhat less so?
That's a great idea. Consider it done.Haltiamieli said:But I think it might help if Gandalf's incantation would be subtitled: "Sleep Caradhras - be still, lie still, hold your wrath!"
I suppose it is a bit strange - I'll see if anything can be done with it.Haltiamieli said:Gandalf's comment after the entrance has collapsed ("We have now but one choice - we have to face the long dark of Moria.") is a bit strange thing to say - obviously the collapse of the entrance means they can't turn back, but they weren't planning to do so either; this is the way they chose.
The way I see it it's the mithril that lights up the chasm when Gandalf directs his light down it.Haltiamieli said:In the scene where Gandalf explains the wealth of Moria coming from mithril, I've never really understood the part where Gandalf suddenly lightens up his staff to show the chasm and all of the fellowship look flabbergasted - and all there is is this big dark, deep chasm with some mining equipment hanging. From the context and the way it's presented one would expect the chasm to be full of shining mithril or something, but no. It's just dark. I don't know however if this chasm-showing part could be cut (even if you'd agree with me) as Gandalf is still talking when he starts the light show.
I ended up removing all but the first of them, which is very brief.Haltiamieli said:The cave troll scene is very nicely cut together, especially as you wrote that after this version you've trimmed away at least some of Frodo's dozen "Ouch, I feel like I'm gonna vomit" close shots. Is there any left?
Hmm, I've never noticed this. Anyway, I'm not to blame for this one, as it's like that in the original as wellHaltiamieli said:When in the midst of battle Frodo, Merry and Pippin evade troll's club, there follows a short unclear shot of Merry or Pippin or both fallen to floor, but at first I for some reason thought it was Frodo falling, even though in the preceding shot he was left standing after troll's attack. So that shot might be unnecessary, possibly even misleading?
I tried inserting the Boromir shot there, but I think it works better without it, so I don't think there's anything to be done about this one.Haltiamieli said:When the company is fleeing balrog and Gandalf commands Aragorn to lead the group, the corridor is red-lighted as opposed to the grey of the preceding hall. This seems a little sudden. What's more, it feels slightly out of flow that we see Gandalf nearly stopping and watching behind, and in the next shot he's stopping again, with no on-screen moving. Maybe the shot of Boromir running down the corridor steps could be used in between? Cut, of course, before the chasm with stairways is shown.
I agree, actually. I'll see if it's possible to cut them.Haltiamieli said:I suspect this might be one of the things where our opinions just happen to disagree, but I've never liked the way Jackson puts Galadriel talking in Frodo's head with close-up shots of Galadriel's eyes when they arrive at Lórien and again in the end of their arrival audience.
Right on both counts.Haltiamieli said:Also I'd cut Celeborn's welcome line to the fellowship, which just feels offbeat: "The enemy knows you've entered here. What hope you had in secrecy is now gone." It doesn't make much sense either (as the first, most urgent comment) - I suspect it was originally meant to refer to the attack of Moria orcs against borders of Lórien, filmed but not used. I think "Eight there are, but nine there were who left Rivendell. Tell me where is Gandalf etc." would be a better start. Not to always nudgenudgewinkwink about the coming fall of Boromir, I might cut also the shot of him after Galadriel's line "...to the ruin of all." Earlier in the scene enough is made of his nervousness when looking in Galadriel's eyes, this feels just unnecessary underlining.
I haven't checked. I know there's some unaltered footage somewhere in the extras, but probably nothing usable. I agree with you that the scene is terrible.Haltiamieli said:How I wish Jackson would have included unaltered version of picture and sound of Galadriel's temptation to the extras of the DVD, but this not being the case (as far as I remember?) there's not much anyone can do to that...
Yes.Haltiamieli said:This is undoubtedly one of the many cases of my overnitpickiness again, [snip]
Nothing I can do about that.Haltiamieli said:I've always thought that Boromir should stay fallen on the ground a little longer, after his fight with Frodo and before his mind clears up. But I don't know if anything could be done for that. I suppose doubled frames would be noticable even in picture where nothing really moves.
I did, but felt it wasn't really necessary, especially since the shot is used in Book III as well.Haltiamieli said:Did you consider using the short shot of Sam and Frodo climbing the eastern bank of Anduin away from their boat before the last Emyn Muil scenes?
That's all? Tsk, tsk, tsk. You disappoint me.Haltiamieli said:That's all I could come up with this time.
Great! I need all the help I can get.Haltiamieli said:Sometime next week I hope I have time to think more about the third part and what you've written about it. Nitpicking of course is somewhat harder when there's nothing to see through yet. :smile:
The way I see it, both in the original and in this edit, he's figured out that Frodo is leaving, and wants to reach him before it's too late. That's the way it's in the book, and I think that's what PJ intended as well - since Sam isn't shown to be even aware of the orc attack, and the sequence is shown after the orcs have already taken off.TMBTM said:Whithout the uruk hai attack, we really wonder why Sam is running in the wood like mad man searching for Frodo
Thanks!TMBTM said:Book1: 5/5
Book2: 4/5
All in all, great job!
Ah, yes. That was my reason (mentioned above) for cutting it that way.spelledaren said:There was an other comment that it might be best to cut to Gandalf waking up instead of the tree being felled, but I think this works. Feels like a little time passed at least, and the sound wakes him up.
It would be hard, if not impossible, to fix that, since Gandalf walks up to Elrond while speaking his line.spelledaren said:Gandalf moves between shots, and quite a bit too. This could and should be solved.
Personally, I think it works fine. And like you say, there's really no other way to do it.spelledaren said:I didn't like it. Something was missing bewtween the two. Not sure what you could do differently though if you want to remove his reluctance.
I intentionally wanted it to be sudden. To quote the book: "But at that moment several things happened". I also didn't want to include the reveal shot, because in the book, they don't see anything except the tentacles.spelledaren said:It's very sudden, everyone is inside except the hobbits, and then they are fleeing into the mine from the monster that didn't get a real "reveal" shot. It works...but felt a little off.
I agree.spelledaren said:"We do not see Sam underwater"
Yeah, this is sudden, but we are spared a rather stupid scene, so all good to me.
Yes, by all means, wait for the DVD! (or you could just give it a 4 right away, I suppose - 3 is a bit harsh, don't you think?)spelledaren said:I know that you are fixing some things for the DVD...and maybe I should see that. Right now I'm not sure if I want to give this 3 or 4 stars. If I wait it'll probably be a 4, right?
Thanks!spelledaren said:I like these edits btw. They are daring and smart.