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The Red Book of Westmarch, Book II - The Ring Goes South

kerr

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Warning - ridiculously long post ahead!

Thanks once again for your detailed "nitpickings", Haltiamieli! And this time, I'll be able to consider them for the DVD release.

Haltiamieli said:
But when Gandalf has been thrown to the roof, I'd think it would be better to start the next scene with Gandalf awakening, not with a tree being cut - for two reasons: this is Gandalf's flashback, so it would be logical to stay with him as much as possible, and besides the destruction scenery seen from the top of Orthanc, with little torch fires far below etc, is quite awesome. It loses some of its power when we've seen a tree falling down already before.
I seem to remember that I considered cutting it like that, but for some reason chose not to. I can't recall why, though, so I'll have to take another look at it. Your "this is Gandalf's flashback" argument is very valid, so I'll probably end up following your suggestion.

Haltiamieli said:
Then there's the scene where we see the preparations of war in the new-delved dungeons. If possible (here as in elsewhere, I can't know how the soundtrack affects possibilities of my proposed cuts), I'd cut the few shots where Saruman himself is briefly seen - as he happens to be on the top of the tower in the beginning of the very next scene, this is a bit confusing.
Yes, you're absolutely right. Shouldn't be too hard to remove.

Haltiamieli said:
Brace yourself for yet another stupid suggestion: what if a short shot could be added between these two scenes, to establish passage of time and moving from place to place.
I probably won't be doing that, as I kinda like the cut from orcs hammering on swords to Saruman smashing Gandalf to the floor.

Haltiamieli said:
And again, I'd like this to stay with Gandalf, so maybe Saruman's line "So you have chosen... death." (which is a bit lame anyway) after Gandalf's escape could be cut?
I never had any problems with the line, but as you mentioned, this is Gandalf's flashback, so yeah, it might be best to cut it.

Haltiamieli said:
And as Gandalf has now escaped and the main point of flashback has been delivered, I would even suggest cutting of the beautiful shot where Gandalf and Gwaihir are flying over sunlit mountains.
Well, I really like the shot, and I don't think cutting it would change the pacing or anything, so I can't really see a reason to cut it, but I'll take a look at how it'll flow without it.

Haltiamieli said:
Maybe the musical theme played when the ring descends to the bottom of the river could be a little less loud? It stands out a bit, coming and going off quite quickly, and the following music being quite different.
Yeah, I'm not entirely satisfied with that transition, so I'll probably alter it in some way for the DVD.

Haltiamieli said:
The way you moved the Council scene a little earlier and the way it completely altered the meaning and character motivations of the following Narsil scene (with the cuts made there) is one of the ingenious, surprising decisions which really make these edits of yours stand out.
To give credit where credit is due, I stole that brilliant idea from spelledarens edit, Tale of the Fellowship.

Haltiamieli said:
However, if my computer doesn't fool me, there's one quite loud footstep audible before the scene changes from the Council to Boromir approaching Narsil, when Merry is looking at Pippin.
You're right. I must have missed that one.

Haltiamieli said:
I think that the new meaning of this scene wouldn't suffer if this one glance would be cut.
I agree.

Haltiamieli said:
Cutting from Aragorn and Arwen's talk on the bridge to Legolas descending stair and then to Aragorn and Elrond on Gilraen's memorial feels somewhat strange, as does the change from the memorial scene to Bilbo and Frodo (all the more because both of the latter ones deal with swords, just two very different ones). But I suppose as you've deliberately put Legolas shot there, that straight transmission from bridge scene to Gilraen's memorial wouldn't work?
Yeah, a straight cut between the two felt weird, because it doesn't make it clear enough that it's the following morning. So with a straight cut, it feels like Aragorn is sharing a romantic kiss with Arwen only to run off right afterwards - which would, of course, be a weird thing for him to do.

Haltiamieli said:
On the Caradhras scene Saruman's voice is still quite recognisable, maybe it could be treated somewhat less so?
I'm not sure I'll be able to do anything about that, but I'll give it some thought.

Haltiamieli said:
But I think it might help if Gandalf's incantation would be subtitled: "Sleep Caradhras - be still, lie still, hold your wrath!"
That's a great idea. Consider it done.

Haltiamieli said:
Gandalf's comment after the entrance has collapsed ("We have now but one choice - we have to face the long dark of Moria.") is a bit strange thing to say - obviously the collapse of the entrance means they can't turn back, but they weren't planning to do so either; this is the way they chose.
I suppose it is a bit strange - I'll see if anything can be done with it.

Haltiamieli said:
In the scene where Gandalf explains the wealth of Moria coming from mithril, I've never really understood the part where Gandalf suddenly lightens up his staff to show the chasm and all of the fellowship look flabbergasted - and all there is is this big dark, deep chasm with some mining equipment hanging. From the context and the way it's presented one would expect the chasm to be full of shining mithril or something, but no. It's just dark. I don't know however if this chasm-showing part could be cut (even if you'd agree with me) as Gandalf is still talking when he starts the light show.
The way I see it it's the mithril that lights up the chasm when Gandalf directs his light down it.

Haltiamieli said:
The cave troll scene is very nicely cut together, especially as you wrote that after this version you've trimmed away at least some of Frodo's dozen "Ouch, I feel like I'm gonna vomit" close shots. Is there any left?
I ended up removing all but the first of them, which is very brief.

Haltiamieli said:
When in the midst of battle Frodo, Merry and Pippin evade troll's club, there follows a short unclear shot of Merry or Pippin or both fallen to floor, but at first I for some reason thought it was Frodo falling, even though in the preceding shot he was left standing after troll's attack. So that shot might be unnecessary, possibly even misleading?
Hmm, I've never noticed this. Anyway, I'm not to blame for this one, as it's like that in the original as well :)

Haltiamieli said:
When the company is fleeing balrog and Gandalf commands Aragorn to lead the group, the corridor is red-lighted as opposed to the grey of the preceding hall. This seems a little sudden. What's more, it feels slightly out of flow that we see Gandalf nearly stopping and watching behind, and in the next shot he's stopping again, with no on-screen moving. Maybe the shot of Boromir running down the corridor steps could be used in between? Cut, of course, before the chasm with stairways is shown.
I tried inserting the Boromir shot there, but I think it works better without it, so I don't think there's anything to be done about this one.

Haltiamieli said:
I suspect this might be one of the things where our opinions just happen to disagree, but I've never liked the way Jackson puts Galadriel talking in Frodo's head with close-up shots of Galadriel's eyes when they arrive at Lórien and again in the end of their arrival audience.
I agree, actually. I'll see if it's possible to cut them.

Haltiamieli said:
Also I'd cut Celeborn's welcome line to the fellowship, which just feels offbeat: "The enemy knows you've entered here. What hope you had in secrecy is now gone." It doesn't make much sense either (as the first, most urgent comment) - I suspect it was originally meant to refer to the attack of Moria orcs against borders of Lórien, filmed but not used. I think "Eight there are, but nine there were who left Rivendell. Tell me where is Gandalf etc." would be a better start. Not to always nudgenudgewinkwink about the coming fall of Boromir, I might cut also the shot of him after Galadriel's line "...to the ruin of all." Earlier in the scene enough is made of his nervousness when looking in Galadriel's eyes, this feels just unnecessary underlining.
Right on both counts.

Haltiamieli said:
How I wish Jackson would have included unaltered version of picture and sound of Galadriel's temptation to the extras of the DVD, but this not being the case (as far as I remember?) there's not much anyone can do to that...
I haven't checked. I know there's some unaltered footage somewhere in the extras, but probably nothing usable. I agree with you that the scene is terrible.

Haltiamieli said:
This is undoubtedly one of the many cases of my overnitpickiness again, [snip]
Yes. :p

Haltiamieli said:
I've always thought that Boromir should stay fallen on the ground a little longer, after his fight with Frodo and before his mind clears up. But I don't know if anything could be done for that. I suppose doubled frames would be noticable even in picture where nothing really moves.
Nothing I can do about that.

Haltiamieli said:
Did you consider using the short shot of Sam and Frodo climbing the eastern bank of Anduin away from their boat before the last Emyn Muil scenes?
I did, but felt it wasn't really necessary, especially since the shot is used in Book III as well.

Haltiamieli said:
That's all I could come up with this time.
That's all? Tsk, tsk, tsk. You disappoint me. :p

Haltiamieli said:
Sometime next week I hope I have time to think more about the third part and what you've written about it. Nitpicking of course is somewhat harder when there's nothing to see through yet. :smile:
Great! I need all the help I can get.

TMBTM said:
Whithout the uruk hai attack, we really wonder why Sam is running in the wood like mad man searching for Frodo
The way I see it, both in the original and in this edit, he's figured out that Frodo is leaving, and wants to reach him before it's too late. That's the way it's in the book, and I think that's what PJ intended as well - since Sam isn't shown to be even aware of the orc attack, and the sequence is shown after the orcs have already taken off.

TMBTM said:
Book1: 5/5
Book2: 4/5

All in all, great job!
Thanks! :)

spelledaren said:
There was an other comment that it might be best to cut to Gandalf waking up instead of the tree being felled, but I think this works. Feels like a little time passed at least, and the sound wakes him up.
Ah, yes. That was my reason (mentioned above) for cutting it that way.

spelledaren said:
Gandalf moves between shots, and quite a bit too. This could and should be solved.
It would be hard, if not impossible, to fix that, since Gandalf walks up to Elrond while speaking his line.

spelledaren said:
I didn't like it. Something was missing bewtween the two. Not sure what you could do differently though if you want to remove his reluctance.
Personally, I think it works fine. And like you say, there's really no other way to do it.

spelledaren said:
It's very sudden, everyone is inside except the hobbits, and then they are fleeing into the mine from the monster that didn't get a real "reveal" shot. It works...but felt a little off.
I intentionally wanted it to be sudden. To quote the book: "But at that moment several things happened". I also didn't want to include the reveal shot, because in the book, they don't see anything except the tentacles.

spelledaren said:
"We do not see Sam underwater"

Yeah, this is sudden, but we are spared a rather stupid scene, so all good to me.
I agree.

spelledaren said:
I know that you are fixing some things for the DVD...and maybe I should see that. Right now I'm not sure if I want to give this 3 or 4 stars. If I wait it'll probably be a 4, right? :p
Yes, by all means, wait for the DVD! :p (or you could just give it a 4 right away, I suppose - 3 is a bit harsh, don't you think?)

spelledaren said:
I like these edits btw. They are daring and smart.
Thanks! :)
 
H

Haltiamieli

kerr said:
I seem to remember that I considered cutting it like that, but for some reason chose not to. I can't recall why, though, so I'll have to take another look at it. Your "this is Gandalf's flashback" argument is very valid, so I'll probably end up following your suggestion.
In fact, looking at this part again today, I'm beginning to lean towards liking it more as it is now. Maybe. Both ways have their good sides. But on the other hand, I might suggest cutting off the "Trees are strong." "Cut them all down." dialogue between the random orc and Saruman. The picture already tells what is happening better than these somewhat pompous lines. And as we have no Sauron commanding Saruman to act through palantír, we may be left wondering how Saruman so suddenly decided that it would be better to rip all the trees down. Without this dialogue, the change might be thought to have happened little slower.

kerr said:
I kinda like the cut from orcs hammering on swords to Saruman smashing Gandalf to the floor.
Yeah, there's a good point there. And if Saruman isn't seen in the dungeons, the cut probably won't feel that strange anyway. Though one might be left wondering if the moth just stayed fluttering around the tower, as the passage of time isn't shown in any way. But that is a problem probably no cut of the material would really solve.

kerr said:
Well, I really like the shot, and I don't think cutting it would change the pacing or anything, so I can't really see a reason to cut it, but I'll take a look at how it'll flow without it.
Yeah, it is a very nice shot. I thought that the way Gandalf fills the whole screen on the earlier shot would be good place to return to present time, but for this cut to have any added power it probably would need that the picture would return to Gandalf in the present, when it actually returns to Frodo. The flight over the mountains also serves as a nice intermediate between the different colour-worlds of nightly Isengard and Rivendell.

kerr said:
Haltiamieli said:
Maybe the musical theme played when the ring descends to the bottom of the river could be a little less loud? It stands out a bit, coming and going off quite quickly, and the following music being quite different.
Yeah, I'm not entirely satisfied with that transition, so I'll probably alter it in some way for the DVD.
I think simply playing the same music but very softly, subdued, would do it quite well. :) Being a flashback where Isildur's fate is seen somewhat matter-of-factly, big musical build-up doesn't quite fit. So I'd start subduing the music already at least before the orcish archers on the river bank are shown.

Haltiamieli said:
The way I see it it's the mithril that lights up the chasm when Gandalf directs his light down it.
Hmm, I've actually never come to thought it that way. So it might make some sense after all, even if I don't still think it as a very successfully dealt scene. :)

kerr said:
Hmm, I've never noticed this. Anyway, I'm not to blame for this one, as it's like that in the original as well :)
Hah, so it seems to be :D Maybe as the quality of the .avi file is somewhat worse than DVD picture, it is clearer there who are in that shot. But anyway, I wouldn't consider that a necessary shot, just somewhat bad cutting on Jackson's part. At this moment of the fight, perception is already turning to Frodo alone. We don't really need to know what happened to Merry and Pippin, as it is already clear enough from the preceding shot that neither was left under the troll's club.

kerr said:
I tried inserting the Boromir shot there, but I think it works better without it, so I don't think there's anything to be done about this one.
Again, this felt quite natural cut rewatching today :p

Haltiamieli said:
...especially since the shot is used in Book III as well.
Ah. Hopefully not as it is in the official movie though? Frodo and Sam are pretty slow paddlers if others elsewhere have time to fight a million uruk-hai and prepare Boromir's funeral boat and still see Frodo and Sam on the other bank after that...
 
H

Haltiamieli

kerr said:
spelledaren said:
Gandalf moves between shots, and quite a bit too. This could and should be solved.
It would be hard, if not impossible, to fix that, since Gandalf walks up to Elrond while speaking his line.
If I understood correctly, the problem in the current cut is how Gandalf is suddenly walking away from Elrond without ever coming closer in the first place? But the only thing Elrond says when Gandalf walks away is "Gandalf", which isn't necessarily required in the following line: "The Ring cannot stay in Rivendell."

Still, some replacing shot of Gandalf would probably be needed between Elrond's lines (i.e. "...list of allies grows thin." and "The Ring cannot...") if the walk-away is cut, to add weight to the latter line.
 

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Haltiamieli said:
But on the other hand, I might suggest cutting off the "Trees are strong." "Cut them all down." dialogue between the random orc and Saruman. The picture already tells what is happening better than these somewhat pompous lines. And as we have no Sauron commanding Saruman to act through palantír, we may be left wondering how Saruman so suddenly decided that it would be better to rip all the trees down. Without this dialogue, the change might be thought to have happened little slower.

Actually, this kind of majestic lines is what I like most about the film trilogy - they send shivers down my spine every time I watch it.
 

kerr

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Haltiamieli said:
But on the other hand, I might suggest cutting off the "Trees are strong." "Cut them all down." dialogue between the random orc and Saruman.
Nah, I'll probably keep those lines - I think it's important to emphasize that the destruction of the forest is a conscious decision on Saruman's part. Especially since the shot of Saruman inspecting the caverns is now gone, I think it's important to show Saruman at least once during this sequence.

Haltiamieli said:
Ah. Hopefully not as it is in the official movie though? Frodo and Sam are pretty slow paddlers if others elsewhere have time to fight a million uruk-hai and prepare Boromir's funeral boat and still see Frodo and Sam on the other bank after that...
Yes, it's in the same place as in the official movie, and the timeline is also the same as in the original, as the opening scenes of Book III overlap with the end of Book II.

Haltiamieli said:
If I understood correctly, the problem in the current cut is how Gandalf is suddenly walking away from Elrond without ever coming closer in the first place? But the only thing Elrond says when Gandalf walks away is "Gandalf", which isn't necessarily required in the following line: "The Ring cannot stay in Rivendell."

Still, some replacing shot of Gandalf would probably be needed between Elrond's lines (i.e. "...list of allies grows thin." and "The Ring cannot...") if the walk-away is cut, to add weight to the latter line.
Yes, but if it's cut like that, he will still have moved, only in the opposite direction - and he will also have turned his back against Elrond - between shots, which (in my opinion, at least) is more distracting than the way I've cut it.

One other thing I'm considering cutting for the DVD is the scene at Gilraen's memorial. Like you pointed out, Haltiamieli, the cuts around that scene feel a bit weird. Also, the scene doesn't really add anything, except setting up the eventual reforging of Narsil and giving us a bit of Aragorn's backstory. Any thoughts?
 

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The DVD version is finished - although uploading it will take some time. The differences, as you'll notice, are a bit greater between the XVID and the DVD this time around. Here are the details:

NTSC Single Layer DVD
192kbps Dolby AC-3 2.0
approx. 89 minutes
4,18 GB

Changes from the XVID:
- The wizard battle has been restored to its original length
- Brief shot of Saruman in the caverns of Isengard has been cut
- Better audio transition after Isildur's death
- An audible footstep that shouldn't be there at the end of the council scene has been removed
- The scene at Gilraen's memorial has been cut
- Evened out the audio levels at Caradhras
- Some further cuts have been made to the cave troll battle to remove Frodo's faces of pain
- Galadriel's telepathy with Frodo as they enter Lórien has been cut
- Galadriel's telepathy ("Welcome, Frodo of the Shire... One who has seen THE EYE!") has been cut
- Shot of Sam searching for Frodo in the woods of Parth Galen has been moved so that it comes between Frodo on Amon Hen and Frodo by the river

Special features:
- Book III Preview: A 3-minute excerpt from the upcoming edit, showing the arrival at Helm's Deep
- Lothlórien Color Comparison: Similar to the feature on the first DVD, a side-by-side comparison showing the color change made to the Lorien sequence

I'll report back once the upload's complete.
 

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Great! I haven't downloaded the first yet - but soon will.

Looking forward to my new six disk LOTR boxset! :grin:

Getting anywhere with Book 3?
 

kerr

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white43 said:
Getting anywhere with Book 3?
Yes, but it's going slowly. The last half of the edit is pretty much finished, but there's some stuff in the first half that I still have to iron out. It should be ready for release sometime early in March.
 
H

Haltiamieli

kerr said:
Haltiamieli said:
Ah. Hopefully not as it is in the official movie though? Frodo and Sam are pretty slow paddlers if others elsewhere have time to fight a million uruk-hai and prepare Boromir's funeral boat and still see Frodo and Sam on the other bank after that...
Yes, it's in the same place as in the official movie, and the timeline is also the same as in the original, as the opening scenes of Book III overlap with the end of Book II.
I still find that very strange chronologically (like shouldn't Frodo kinda know about the death of Boromir if he's been watching them preparing the funeral boat from the other shore?). But of course there's the nice side that we're able to see Frodo and Sam briefly also in the third part, from the Three Hunters' viewpoint. That could take the transition between the parts smoother.

kerr said:
Yes, but if it's cut like that, he will still have moved, only in the opposite direction - and he will also have turned his back against Elrond - between shots, which (in my opinion, at least) is more distracting than the way I've cut it.
This might be true. And anyway, I wasn't that bothered about the incongruity when watching, even as I did notice it. I don't think I would have however, if I didn't know the film quite well and weren't already expecting to see how you handled recutting this conversation (very well, in my opinion).

Cutting Gilraen's memorial scene sounds wise. As Aragorn doesn't hesitate about his destiny in this cut, it is probably too early anyway to mention the reforging of Narsil, as it can't happen in the movie anyway until much later.

By the way I browsed through some of the extras of FotR EE and found Cate Blanchett's unaltered lines for her Temptation scene. They aren't very salvageable though, having some noticeable humm on the background and being recorded at doublespeed. Maybe some sound guru could mix a little better version of them, but it would be absurdly big job compared to the reward :p As far as I could find, there is no alternate video footage of the scene.

I'm not sure if I'll download the DVD version until later, maybe not until all six are ready. At least at the moment there's some problems with my connection speed, so I rather not download huge files (more than is necessary).
 

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The DVD's been uploaded to Rapidshare!

Haltiamieli said:
I still find that very strange chronologically (like shouldn't Frodo kinda know about the death of Boromir if he's been watching them preparing the funeral boat from the other shore?). But of course there's the nice side that we're able to see Frodo and Sam briefly also in the third part, from the Three Hunters' viewpoint. That could take the transition between the parts smoother.
Yeah, that's my reasoning for keeping it in. Also, it gives more weight to Aragorn's decision to not follow Frodo and Sam when we see that they haven't gotten that far, and that Aragorn and co. could easily catch up with them if they so chose.

Haltiamieli said:
By the way I browsed through some of the extras of FotR EE and found Cate Blanchett's unaltered lines for her Temptation scene. They aren't very salvageable though, having some noticeable humm on the background and being recorded at doublespeed. Maybe some sound guru could mix a little better version of them, but it would be absurdly big job compared to the reward :p As far as I could find, there is no alternate video footage of the scene.
Yeah, I found that audio as well. Not really useable, as you say, and there wouldn't be much of a point without the "clean" video to go with it (which I think I've seen snippets of somewhere... Couldn't find it on the EE, but maybe on the theatrical DVD? I'll have to take a look.)

Haltiamieli said:
I'm not sure if I'll download the DVD version until later, maybe not until all six are ready. At least at the moment there's some problems with my connection speed, so I rather not download huge files (more than is necessary).
If you want, I suppose I could send the DVDs to you in the mail - Finland's not that far away.
 

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The old XVID has been replaced with a new one, which is identical to the DVD cut.
 

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The new version of Book II is finished and uploaded. The following changes have been made from the first DVD release:

- The title sequence has been changed to match the style used for Books V and VI
- The title card for "Book II" has been moved to the first establishing shot of Rivendell
- Fixed the continuity error of Gandalf's position during his conversation with Elrond
- Used the theatrical version of the Council of Elrond
- Some minor changes to Arwen's conversation with Aragorn
- Added subtitle for "Sleep, Caradhras - Stay your wrath!" during the Caradhras sequence
- Some minor cuts to the fight in Moria
- Re-did the coloring for Lothlorien
- Re-inserted Frodo's vision of Bara-Dur on Amon Hen
- Used a different graphic for the credit sequence
- Audio transitions have been improved throughout
- Higher video bitrate
 

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Just out of curiosity, are Books 3 & 4 getting redone as well or is this it?? :smile:
 

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Very nice.

Is there a reason why you wanted to remove Boromir's dream speech? That was his whole reason for attending in the book.
 

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Just out of curiosity, are Books 3 & 4 getting redone as well or is this it?? :smile:
Yes, they are. :)

Is there a reason why you wanted to remove Boromir's dream speech? That was his whole reason for attending in the book.
Even though it is in the book, I feel the scene is so poorly done that the Council sequence feels more like the book without it. Showing Boromir's attraction to the Ring so early makes him look weak, in my opinion, especially since he moments later tries to persuade the Council to give the Ring to Gondor, after already having been "shot down" by Gandalf after his "dream speech". Also, Gandalf's recital of the Ring Verse in the Black Speech feels random and out of character to me, since there's no real setup for it (unlike the book, where it's part of his tale.) So that's my reasoning for removing the scene. I included it in the first version because I thought I would need it once I got to Book IV, where I was originally going to use a re-edited version of the Osgiliath flashback that would depend on the dream speech (Denethor: "Elrond of Rivendell has called a council. He would not say why, but I have guessed its purpose." Boromir: "Isildur's Bane...").
 

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kerr said:
Even though it is in the book, I feel the scene is so poorly done that the Council sequence feels more like the book without it. Showing Boromir's attraction to the Ring so early makes him look weak, in my opinion, especially since he moments later tries to persuade the Council to give the Ring to Gondor, after already having been "shot down" by Gandalf after his "dream speech". Also, Gandalf's recital of the Ring Verse in the Black Speech feels random and out of character to me, since there's no real setup for it (unlike the book, where it's part of his tale.) So that's my reasoning for removing the scene. I included it in the first version because I thought I would need it once I got to Book IV, where I was originally going to use a re-edited version of the Osgiliath flashback that would depend on the dream speech (Denethor: "Elrond of Rivendell has called a council. He would not say why, but I have guessed its purpose." Boromir: "Isildur's Bane...").

I understand your reasoning, and I thought the same thing about Gandalf's recital of the ring verse in the films; but for many this change might prove controversial - which is good :smile:. Is the reason for Boromir's attendance in your revised books simply the scene where Denethor informs him that Elrond has called a Council without knowing why?

Are you going to keep the original versions of your books available? I think it would be great to have alternative versions, and the originals would be an interesting demonstration of the development of these book cuts. You seem, of course, to be keeping the old and new "streams" consistent with themselves, but to some extent one might be able to pick and choose. I regret deleting my original AVI of Book V - not because I didn't prefer the second version - but because it would have been interesting to keep - almost like a purist version. Is it still available?
 

kerr

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Is the reason for Boromir's attendance in your revised books simply the scene where Denethor informs him that Elrond has called a Council without knowing why?
I won't be including that scene in the revised versions, either, so the reason is open for interpretation, I suppose. But since these are "book cuts", the "official" reason would be the same as in the books, i.e. the dream told Boromir to seek out the sword that was broken and Isildur's Bane in Imladris.

Are you going to keep the original versions of your books available?
Hm, I haven't really thought about this. I no longer have copies of the original versions myself, but I think they are still up on Rapidshare. I know the avi version of Book V is still there, at least, since I haven't gotten around to creating a new one to match the DVD cut. Also, I have all sorts of different version saved as Womble projects, since I have a habit of saving a new project every time I make a major change - I think I have about fifteen different "Book V" projects.
 

Hal9000

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That's interesting, about the re-edited Gondorian flashback. That'd be a great way to make clear Boromir's motivation.

Either way you go about it, it works. Looking forward to having the finished book cuts on my shelf.
 

Captain Khajiit

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kerr said:
Hm, I haven't really thought about this. I no longer have copies of the original versions myself, but I think they are still up on Rapidshare. I know the avi version of Book V is still there, at least, since I haven't gotten around to creating a new one to match the DVD cut.

Thanks! I'll re-download the AVI of Book V. I still have the original Books I and II backed up, if you ever need them.

Only fifteen Womble projects? :grin: I had about 200 for LOTM - there were so many changes. I deleted some when I had finally finished though.
 

Calgmoth

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This cut has a few problems, I think, mainly the omitted scene of Gandalf reciting the Ring verse. I know it's not a very good scene, but Gandalf does not really say anything at the Council despite that, and Boromir is not really out of character when he shows interest in touching the Ring.

So I really would urge to include this scene.

Then there are other smaller things:

Did you need to omit the line about Sauron hiding in Barad-dûr along with that that he cannot take on physical form?

Why did you cut the line about Minas Morgul? It really disturbed flow of the whole scene. Redundancy cuts are not really necessary, as Tolkien himself goes through all this redundant stuff when he lets characters tell things they have done before, although we already know and see the results (the destruction of Isengard would be the best example).
So such redundancy should actually be strength, not a weakness of your version.

Oh, and I'm in the camp that prefers to cut immediately to Gandalf awakening on Orthanc after the stupid wizard duel. The tree should fall later.

Gandalf's line about Orcs and goblin-men is not really that out of place, as the books do establish Saruman has been able to breed a whole new stock of Orcish creatures (not called Uruk-hai, they were created by Sauron about 2500 TA) that are not hindered by sunlight. As your cut does not show us Orcs popping out of the earth, the audience may understand this as things happened in the books: Saruman somehow convinced his human servants to couple with Orcs.
Also, the fact that Saruman's treachery goes deep may be taken as a sign that he is a threat in himself.

You should remove Gandalf's stupid voiceover regarding their planned route. They do already know about Saruman's betrayal, so taking the Ring close to Isengard would be madness. If there is no elaboration about the route, then changing the route after the crebain discovered them is not nearly as bad as it is now.

I'm not sure about removing the dead dwarves from the entrance of Moria. Getting rid of the Cthulhu thing is perfect, but Gandalf has the good line about the foul things in the deep places of the world which, combined with his talk to Frodo shortly before, foreshadows the Balrog perfectly.

And now comes the thing most important for me:

PJ has ruined the Balrog scene entirely. Gandalf falls in the book; he does not nearly fall, grabs the brink of the chasm, and then decides to let go for some occult reason. I'm pretty sure you could rearrange the scene so that Gandalf does fall properly, and is still able to say 'Fly you fools'.
 
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