The Red Book of Westmarch, Book I - The Return of the Shadow

[T-HOPE]

Okay, I think I missunderstood that he had uploaded both versions. No problemo. I can live with NTSC version, so I will go after that one.

 

[kerr]

The DVD is up on Rapidshare!

 

[boon23]

cool!

 

[AvP]

DVD via BT on demonoid and soon on piratebay

 

[kerr]

DVD via BT on demonoid and soon on piratebay

Awesome, thanks! I also noticed that you made a disc label to match my cover art - looks great!

 

[AvP]

hope you didnt mind the disc art.

 

[searcher]

Downloaded this yesterday, I really cant believe this is your first edit, amazing stuff. Couldn't
fault it anywhere ( not that I was trying to ). Look forward to the next book, enjoyed every minute of it, and this is without doubt a much better way to watch Lord of the rings.
I shall be rating this 5/5 if I could give it more I would. Excellent job.

 

[Haltiamieli]

I already commented elsewhere how well the beginning of the edit works, so I will not repeat it here. And others have already shared their general applause, to which I quite concur, so I thought I might focus on some critical nitpickings and ramblings instead, even if I am too late in case you'd happen to find any of my comments useful or convincing. Anyway, I'd like to hear what you think of them, especially of such that you might have considered and found not working. And even if some of the following comments sound unbearably besserwisser and/or uninformed, I hope you can still tolerate these. "I'm only trying to help you", to quote Gandalf, though no Gandalf am I.

If I understood correctly, the .avi version I have is already outdated with the DVD version having further edits, like cutting of the Nazgûl scenes before Frodo & co. encounter it - meaning at least the scene with wood chopping farmer Maggot? Probably also the scene with Nazgûl leaving Minas Morgul? If so, did you still retain the first camera pan of Barad-dûr (I think it's a bit unnecessary exposition at this point, especially with the problematic scream sounding like "Froooodoo")?

Speaking of calling names, I've never understood the "Frodo!" call after Bilbo's "Where is that boy?" The picture has already shifted to Frodo and so should have, imo, the audio - otherwise some viewer might erranously suppose, if only for a moment, that Bilbo has come to search for Frodo and is in the woods too or something like that. It's quite unnecessary anyway.

Couldn't the continuity problem you mentioned in Gandalf and Frodo's ride through Hobbiton (it did bother me a bit, call me a nitpicker if you will) be circuited if the Gandalf-and-Frodo-riding-through-the-marketplace shot after the yellow fields would be simply cut? There's no dialogue in it, and we've already seen some of the market in Bilbo's earlier monologue, so nothing really valuable would be lost.

I've never really liked the way PJ chose to adapt Bilbo's speech, with Bilbo's overplayed uncertainty and the overall underlined tension building. I'm not sure if it could be cut any other way, but I'd really like a bit more tightly cut version, maybe removing "I've put this far too long" line.

There's a nice montage of walking shot before Sam's "farthest away from home" scene, but the last one irks me unbelievably much: there's big mountains on the background, in the Shire! They can't possibly pass for Green Hill Country! On the other hand, I don't know if there's any solution to this, as cutting the scene would probably shorten the montage sequence too much for it to work anymore, and computer-painting them away would need some serious SFX-wizardry. Besides, I've understood that nobody else is irked by this scene.

Broken carrot was already discussed in earlier comments, so I just use here my chance to say that I don't like it x) More than the actual joke, I find the cut from it to Sam's comment about trusting a Brandybuck and a Took is a bit, I don't know... hurried, not very well working? When watching Sharkey's edit I was somewhat surprised about how much better the scene flowed, in my opinion, without the carrot joke. But well, with or without the joke, this is not a very big thing.

I really like the book-wise idea of us getting the first shot of look at a ringwraith only at this point... even if I haven't seen such version yet! But even if I agree that Merry throwing the vegetables is somewhat lame scriptwriting, I still prefer it to your way - with or without the sound of vegetable sack hitting the ground, the rushing speed of ringwraith's leaving - it nearly jumps away - is quite absurd with no other explanation than Frodo overcoming his temptation. Also it makes less sense how quickly the hobbits decide that this exactly is the moment to run. As a sidenote, I'd cut the unnecessary shot of ground crawling with bugs and such...

I've wondered if some "live" music/singing could be added to background noices in some scenes in the Prancing Pony. That would make the place instantly cosier, and could also serve as a nod towards book and "Merry Old Inn" sung by Frodo. But I suppose it would be very hard to add such noices believably, especially when there's some Shore music already?

Shouldn't Butterbur recognise Gandalf's name rightaway? "elderly chap... big grey beard, pointy hat" is a funny description, but Barliman of the book should know better - demented though he is. How about the conversation going like this:
Frodo: We are friends of Gandalf the Grey, can you tell him that we've arrived?
Barli: Gandalf?
[Frodo nodding]
Barli: Not seen him for six months.

Would it be possible to cut the entire "ghost/ring world" sequence from Bree? Just have Frodo accidentally put the ring on, crowd's reaction, first shot of the Ringwraiths turning around, Merry and Sam and Pippin's reactions (and maybe some menacing-looking breelander taken from other parts of the Inn sequence?), the ringwraiths speeding towards Bree, Frodo pulling the ring off and Strider dragging him away. The later scene on the Weathertop would get much added horror aspect if it would be the first time we'd see the "other side", as in the book.

I suppose this is just another case of my overnitpickiness, but I would cut the "second breakfast" scene because of the snow in the ground! There's no snow in any other scenes, and its the last day of September - a little early for snow. The scene is funny, but not invaluable.

Aragorn tossing the last ringwraith in the head with his torch is just corny beyond belief...

Frodo calling for Gandalf a little later doesn't make much (story-telling) sense with no cutting to Gandalf?

Even if Arwen pointing Aragorn with sword is cringeworthy and very unbookish, in my opinion its nothing compared to the "angel from heaven" scene you retained as her entry: "I am Arwen - I've come to help you" is quite a worthy contender for the worst-delivered line in the whole film saga. It's mostly just strange too that Arwen's dress, hair-style etc. changes from hallucination to reality. It is also all too clear that it wasn't meant as her introduction and doesn't work very well as such.
There's nothing we can do to the fact that Arwen is in Glorfindel's stead, and taking that in account I'd say retaining Arwen's original introduction is the lesser of the evils.

What is that green goo flowing from Frodo's eyes and mouth? Yuck. Once it is there, next moment it isn't... Away with it?


Anyway, I did enjoy your edit and will try to download the DVD version - The Ring Goes South is already downloading, if depressingly slowly.

By the way, I do like your own version of DVD cover best, hopefully you'll do other "books" covers too?

 

[kerr]

First off, thank you, Haltiamieli, for your long, detailed and insightful comments. But at the same time - darn you! After reviewing your comments, I may have to do a third version of my edit.... No promises, though - even though I refer to a "v.3" several times below, I'm not certain I'll actually make such a cut.

Anyway, I'll address your comments(/nitpickings/ramblings ) one at a time:

If I understood correctly, the .avi version I have is already outdated with the DVD version having further edits, like cutting of the Nazgûl scenes before Frodo & co. encounter it - meaning at least the scene with wood chopping farmer Maggot? Probably also the scene with Nazgûl leaving Minas Morgul? If so, did you still retain the first camera pan of Barad-dûr (I think it's a bit unnecessary exposition at this point, especially with the problematic scream sounding like "Froooodoo")?

Yep, it's all gone. I cut from "... a secret only fire can tell" to the exterior shot of The Green Dragon and directly from "But that would lead them here!" to "Take it, Gandalf!" I think these cuts work surprisingly well, both technically and story-wise.

Speaking of calling names, I've never understood the "Frodo!" call after Bilbo's "Where is that boy?" The picture has already shifted to Frodo and so should have, imo, the audio - otherwise some viewer might erranously suppose, if only for a moment, that Bilbo has come to search for Frodo and is in the woods too or something like that. It's quite unnecessary anyway.

I remember thinking this the first few times I watched the EE, but I eventually got so used to it that I completely overlooked it when making this edit. It will be cut for the v.3, if I ever make it.

Couldn't the continuity problem you mentioned in Gandalf and Frodo's ride through Hobbiton (it did bother me a bit, call me a nitpicker if you will) be circuited if the Gandalf-and-Frodo-riding-through-the-marketplace shot after the yellow fields would be simply cut? There's no dialogue in it, and we've already seen some of the market in Bilbo's earlier monologue, so nothing really valuable would be lost.

I tried to do that, but because of the music I couldn't get it to work right.

I've never really liked the way PJ chose to adapt Bilbo's speech, with Bilbo's overplayed uncertainty and the overall underlined tension building. I'm not sure if it could be cut any other way, but I'd really like a bit more tightly cut version, maybe removing "I've put this far too long" line.

Again, you're absolutely right. It should be easy to cut, too.

There's a nice montage of walking shot before Sam's "farthest away from home" scene, but the last one irks me unbelievably much: there's big mountains on the background, in the Shire! They can't possibly pass for Green Hill Country! On the other hand, I don't know if there's any solution to this, as cutting the scene would probably shorten the montage sequence too much for it to work anymore, and computer-painting them away would need some serious SFX-wizardry. Besides, I've understood that nobody else is irked by this scene.

Nitpick /?n?t.p?k/
Verb
to nitpick (third-person singular simple present nitpicks, present participle nitpicking, simple past and past participle nitpicked)
1. To correct minutiae or find fault in unimportant details; to kvetch.

I actually don't think the mountains would be too hard to remove in After Effects, but I'm not really sure it's worth the trouble.

Broken carrot was already discussed in earlier comments, so I just use here my chance to say that I don't like it x) More than the actual joke, I find the cut from it to Sam's comment about trusting a Brandybuck and a Took is a bit, I don't know... hurried, not very well working? When watching Sharkey's edit I was somewhat surprised about how much better the scene flowed, in my opinion, without the carrot joke. But well, with or without the joke, this is not a very big thing.

As mentioned, I kinda like the gag, but you might be right that the scene flows better without it. Again something that might be cut for v.3.

I really like the book-wise idea of us getting the first shot of look at a ringwraith only at this point... even if I haven't seen such version yet!

The DVD version is like this.

But even if I agree that Merry throwing the vegetables is somewhat lame scriptwriting, I still prefer it to your way - with or without the sound of vegetable sack hitting the ground, the rushing speed of ringwraith's leaving - it nearly jumps away - is quite absurd with no other explanation than Frodo overcoming his temptation. Also it makes less sense how quickly the hobbits decide that this exactly is the moment to run. As a sidenote, I'd cut the unnecessary shot of ground crawling with bugs and such...

You're right that the cut is a bit (or very) sudden. I don't feel too strongly either way on this issue, so I might end up reverting it to its original state. As for the bugs, I suppose those could be cut without losing anything.

I've wondered if some "live" music/singing could be added to background noices in some scenes in the Prancing Pony. That would make the place instantly cosier, and could also serve as a nod towards book and "Merry Old Inn" sung by Frodo. But I suppose it would be very hard to add such noices believably, especially when there's some Shore music already?

I briefly considered this, but figured it would be very difficult to pull off - both regarding finding appropriate musis and integrating it into the scene.

Shouldn't Butterbur recognise Gandalf's name rightaway? "elderly chap... big grey beard, pointy hat" is a funny description, but Barliman of the book should know better - demented though he is. How about the conversation going like this:
Frodo: We are friends of Gandalf the Grey, can you tell him that we've arrived?
Barli: Gandalf?
[Frodo nodding]
Barli: Not seen him for six months.

You're right once again, that would be better. Should be easy to cut it that way, too.

Would it be possible to cut the entire "ghost/ring world" sequence from Bree? Just have Frodo accidentally put the ring on, crowd's reaction, first shot of the Ringwraiths turning around, Merry and Sam and Pippin's reactions (and maybe some menacing-looking breelander taken from other parts of the Inn sequence?), the ringwraiths speeding towards Bree, Frodo pulling the ring off and Strider dragging him away. The later scene on the Weathertop would get much added horror aspect if it would be the first time we'd see the "other side", as in the book.

I really wanted to cut it this way, but it doesn't work, because we only see Frodo removing the ring in the "ghost world".

I suppose this is just another case of my overnitpickiness, but I would cut the "second breakfast" scene because of the snow in the ground! There's no snow in any other scenes, and its the last day of September - a little early for snow. The scene is funny, but not invaluable.

Yes, it's just another case of your overnitpickiness .

Aragorn tossing the last ringwraith in the head with his torch is just corny beyond belief...

I tried cutting that, but wasn't completely satisified with it, because the ringwraith with the torch in his face is part of the wide shot which shows that the ringwraiths have all fled.

Frodo calling for Gandalf a little later doesn't make much (story-telling) sense with no cutting to Gandalf?

True, I suppose. But I didn't find another way to cut between the two scenes. And I feel that his calling out to Gandalf further emphasizes that these guys are on their own (particularly since we DON'T cut to Gandalf).

Even if Arwen pointing Aragorn with sword is cringeworthy and very unbookish, in my opinion its nothing compared to the "angel from heaven" scene you retained as her entry: "I am Arwen - I've come to help you" is quite a worthy contender for the worst-delivered line in the whole film saga.

Well, I disagree. There are lots of poorly-delivered lines in these films, but I don't feel that this is one of them. Anyway, it's impossible to cut.

It's mostly just strange too that Arwen's dress, hair-style etc. changes from hallucination to reality.

I thought that was kinda cool, actually - that's how Arwen appears in the "shadow world" (or whatever Tolkien calls it - I'm too lazy to look it up). (Although I think only elves who had lived in the Undying Lands were visible in the "shadow world" - which excludes Arwen.)

There's nothing we can do to the fact that Arwen is in Glorfindel's stead, and taking that in account I'd say retaining Arwen's original introduction is the lesser of the evils.

Well, I personally prefer my version. So there

What is that green goo flowing from Frodo's eyes and mouth? Yuck. Once it is there, next moment it isn't... Away with it?

Yep. Away with it.

By the way, I do like your own version of DVD cover best, hopefully you'll do other "books" covers too?

Why, thank you! Yes, I'll make covers for all the books - but they'll probably all look the same (but with different titles, obviously). I actually got the idea for the covers almost before I began editing (hence the "Red Book of Westmarch" title for the project) - I always thought it would look really neat with a cover in red leather with nothing but JRR Tolkien's monogram on it.

Hope you enjoy Book II - and that you write an equally excellent post with your critical nitpickings and ramblings ( ) for that one as well!

 

[white43]

Hmmm, a little too much Kingdom of the Crystal Skull nitpicking creeping in here.......

People can always come up with more and more things to do, but continual returns for very small things does not change the overall edit...which is splendid by the way. :-D

 

[Haltiamieli]

First off, thank you, Haltiamieli, for your long, detailed and insightful comments. But at the same time - darn you!

That's how I am, always late anywhere I go. Sorry. :smile:

I actually don't think the mountains would be too hard to remove in After Effects, but I'm not really sure it's worth the trouble.

Most probably it isn't - as this is one of the things that bug only me. Just mentioned it for the sake of completeness...

I briefly considered this, but figured it would be very difficult to pull off - both regarding finding appropriate musis and integrating it into the scene.

Yep. Just wanted to mention it, as that might be pretty cool! Though it might just as easily feel only weird as no singer or music players would be shown...

I really wanted to cut it this way, but it doesn't work, because we only see Frodo removing the ring in the "ghost world".

Yeah, I feared so. Just haven't ever bother to look frame by frame when exactly the "ghost world" effects disappear when Frodo pulls off the ring.

I tried cutting that, but wasn't completely satisified with it, because the ringwraith with the torch in his face is part of the wide shot which shows that the ringwraiths have all fled.

Hmm, yeah... it might be. I have to watch the scene again with that in mind.

But I didn't find another way to cut between the two scenes. And I feel that his calling out to Gandalf further emphasizes that these guys are on their own (particularly since we DON'T cut to Gandalf).

Good points, I have to agree.

I thought that was kinda cool, actually - that's how Arwen appears in the "shadow world"

Yeah, that is the other way to see the scene, and obviously what PJ intended. I've just never grasped it that way, emotionally (or what ever?), while watching. Something just doesn't work for me. But if it works for others, I can safely be left rambling.

I always thought it would look really neat with a cover in red leather with nothing but JRR Tolkien's monogram on it.

Yeah, I like simple and timeless designs. And certainly uniform red leather covers fit to your edits' style. Maybe there could, however, be some nice little blurb text on the back cover?

Hope you enjoy Book II

Oh boy, I really did! The download finally finished earlier today and I've just watched it. If this part raised hopes, the second part started to claim them. After all, it's already a little trickier one, if still only a shadow of the challenges yet to come (on our viewpoint, as you've of course tackled with them already). Also, I'm really starting to buy this way of presenting the story in six episodes... I had serious doubts about how it would work overall (well, still have, but less so).

But fear not, I will have much to nitpick on it too! Nevertheless, I have to sleep first - it's already 02:26 am here.

 

[ab5tract]

Mirror of my review at fanedit.org:

"kerr,
Wow! Impressive debut. I personally had zero problems with your editing decisions. In fact quite the opposite, I thought they were excellent. The pacing was very compelling, and beginning the movie with Bilbo writing is Awesome. The battle flashbacks were mixed in perfectly, and even seemed to carry the 'timing' of PJ in the way they were interwoven. Audio transitions were seamless here.

I am very happy that I have Book II here to pop in

10/10 Stars

-0 Stars. I can't find one thing I don't like about it."


Seriously, go watch this now!

 

[kerr]

Wow... Thanks for the great review, ab5tract!

 

[ab5tract]

Kerr, You are most welcome. Thank you for the Book edits!

It feels a little short, but unless I just go in and praise your cutlist I'm not sure what else to say

Though I did forget to mention how much better your coloring was over the original in the Prancing Pony scenes..

 

[Grimdeth]

Man I am soooooo looking forward to this.
Many thanks for the Avi, and ~cheers~ for all your hard work Kerr

Regards,
EE

 

[kerr]

The new version of Book I is finished and uploaded. The following changes have been made from the first DVD release:

- The title sequence has been changed to match the style used for Books V and VI
- Gandalf's line about the "long-expected party" has been cut to allow for a smoother audio transition
- Cut some of Bilbo's speech, going directly from "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and like less than half of you half as well as you deserve" (or however that line goes...) to "I regret to announce this is the end", without the mumbling in-between
- The Last Alliance flashback has been extended to include the establishing shot of the marching armies and a shot of Elendil wielding Narsil
- Shots of the Wood Elves have been flipped to fix a continuity error
- Cut Pippin's "Oh, that was close" and Merry's bit with the carrot after their stumble down the cliff
- Cut Frodo seeing the Eye at the inn
- Cut Aragorn throwing his torch at a Ringwraith
- Cut Sam's line "Look Frodo, it's Mr. Bilbo's trolls!"
- The flight to the ford has been shortened somewhat
- Also, this release has a higher video bitrate than the first one, and the audio work has been improved throughout

 

[Captain Khajiit]

Lovely! The cuts to Bilbo's speech sound particularly good, and I won't miss Pippin's silly lines either. Thanks, Kerr!

I'm hoping to watch these all through again at Christmas. I know it's early days, but any idea whether we can expect Book VI by then?

 

[kerr]

Lovely! The cuts to Bilbo's speech sound particularly good, and I won't miss Pippin's silly lines either. Thanks, Kerr!

I'm hoping to watch these all through again at Christmas. I know it's early days, but any idea whether we can expect Book VI by then?

I won't make any promises, but yes, that's very likely. I'm hoping to give all six edits as a christmas present, which of course would be difficult without having finished the final part. So I'm aiming towards finishing both Book VI and the new version of Book II (and possibly III as well) in time for christmas.

Also, an avi of this new version is on its way, for those of you who don't feel like downloading the entire DVD.

 

[Captain Khajiit]

I won't make any promises, but yes, that's very likely. I'm hoping to give all six edits as a christmas present, which of course would be difficult without having finished the final part. So I'm aiming towards finishing both Book VI and the new version of Book II (and possibly III as well) in time for christmas.

Also, an avi of this new version is on its way, for those of you who don't feel like downloading the entire DVD.

Actually, your LOTR edits are one of the few fanedits for which I always download and burn the DVDs, which shows you how much I like them! I usually prefer MP4s.

Thanks for letting us know, and I shall keep my fingers crossed. If these really are done in time, it will be a Merry Christmas indeed! :lol: :wink:

 

[spelledaren]

Awesome.