The Hobbit: Fire of the Dragon (Desolation of Smaug Recut)

[Neglify]

Nice, looking forward to checking this one out.

 

[Aztek463]

I really hope this will stand next to There and B-- oh, sorry... The Battle of the Five Armies (ugh, seriously?)

I felt the same way when they announced the title change. The justification for it was understandable, but it's a really unweildy title. They did say that "There and Back Again" would be used on the trilogy collection and such, so it's not totally gone.

Also, [MENTION=10544]ranger613[/MENTION], a question: when you edit AUJ, are you going to edit the theatrical cut or the extended cut? And, a second question I guess ( ) are you going to redo this edit when the extended version of DOS comes out, or just leave it as it? Just curious.

 

[ranger613]

Nice, looking forward to checking this one out.

Thank you! It will be out soon as it just got approved!

 

[ranger613]

I felt the same way when they announced the title change. The justification for it was understandable, but it's a really unweildy title. They did say that "There and Back Again" would be used on the trilogy collection and such, so it's not totally gone.

Also, ranger613, a question: when you edit AUJ, are you going to edit the theatrical cut or the extended cut? And, a second question I guess ( ) are you going to redo this edit when the extended version of DOS comes out, or just leave it as it? Just curious.

Hey man! Yes, the title change theoretically should help sell more tickets to casual moviegoers, but its a flawed argument on the part of PJ, because how many people are going to walk into the third movie without knowing anything about the first two?--and if so, how confusing is it going to be? These movies don't have an opening scrawl like Star Wars--if you just went in cold to ROTK for example, you wouldn't have a clue what was going on. If people hated the first two, it's unlikely they'll watch the third one regardless of the title. And, the original title, as far as I know, does alright by the fans. In any case, There and Back again for a trilogy title sounds good.

1) The DOS extended edition I don't think will change this edit--because what I found for the prequels is that less is more. The Hobbit is a perfectly good little novel which did not need to be bulked up to epic length. The story itself is Not epic. So all the extra stuff in AUJ and DOS seem shoehorned in to me. This edit I feel captured the story the way I saw it and had decent flow and pacing. The DOS extended edition I'm guessing will have extra Laketown, Mirkwood scenes and maybe more Gandalf? However I think these will not add anything to the story. The ONLY thing that I might consider adding in is if they have more scenes with Beorn (woefully short in the theatrical cut)-- however as it is, this edit is a solid 2 hours that is never boring, and that's how I'd like to keep it.

2) AUJ? Again I'd recut the theatrical version. Same reasons. The extended scenes were not very consequential. in fact I don't even remember them offhand--I know a few extra lines here and there, Bilbo poking around Rivendell--yup I'll be going with the theatrical. Streamlining the movie into something enetertaining is the goal. (I feel the Exact opposite about LOTR tho--there I want more, more, more!! It's funny how watching LOTR you go 'why did they cut this out?' etc, while during the Hobbit its 'why did they add that stuff in??')

Cheers man!

 

[kellenpure]

Last night I watched your DOS edit to escape the din of my 11 year old daughter's sleep over party. Thank the gods for good noise cancelling headphones! I tend to watch movies solo on my PC, which has a quality monitor, better than my TV. The video quality was excellent, and the audio good as well. Maybe others with higher fidelity systems will find otherwise, but for my purposes I was very satisfied with the technical aspect of the edit. I once again enjoyed the spectacle and detail of this Peter Jackson series. I can enjoy the movies on the manifestation of Middle Earth in itself.

But on to the narrative. Firstly, I did not like the writing/narrative in the theater version of this movie at all. I came out of the theater completely disillusioned. AUJ was much better in my opinion, and much more manageable as a fanedit. So there is your first challenge, I need a deep cut of this movie to be satisfied. Unfortunately, I had trouble for the most part determining what was cut, which is good from a basic editing standpoint, but not satisfying. I will list the particular cuts I would like to see:
--the whole Beorn segment is simply bad. Maybe cut the bear form chasing the party into the house and instead infer they are escaping the orcs. Then later have the scene where Beorn changes and comes through the door. If at all possible I would like less of the dialogue with Beorn. Sadly, PJ killed this storyline and I just want to get past it every time I see it.
--I would like to see every inference of Tauriel's interest in Kili removed. It makes me wince. I don't even want to see them talk in the prison. Seems like that would be easy to cut. It's the worst created plot line of the movie. UGH, what a travesty to Tolkien!!
--The barrel scene has got to be cut, and not just a little. Maybe get them past the water gate, then a couple brief battle scenes with orcs. Cut Legolas/Tauriel way out, they are so unbelievable, the other elves are easily taken out, while these two are a virtual army. Less is more with this whole scene. Get to the barrel beaching scene fast and I'm happy.
--The Lake Town segment of the edit was well done. Masterful to cut some of the dwarves staying behind, and the elves and orcs at Lake Town. I really enjoyed this part of the movie, though even the Bard storyline is not completely how I would have liked PJ to approach it.
--Lame scene where the dwarves simply give up on finding the door. Seriously? They spend just a few minutes then whine and go away? Thorin throws away the key, an heirloom? So much for the stubborness of dwarves! I need this scene cut somehow, if possible. Have them find the door with no problem.
--Dragon with Bilbo a strong part of the movie. I would have liked to see Bilbo invisible for most of it, but I'm not sure the editing technology can make that happen.
--And lastly my biggest cut of all. Thorin and dwarves never enter the mountain. Bilbo pisses off Smaug then cut to the beast headed out the gate to Lake Town. The dwarf scenes with Smaug absolutely killed this movie for me. By the end of it I lost all respect for the dragon - it was just a few dwarves and he didn't kill a single one. Arcade like scenes with the dwarves vs Smaug I won't even go into because, well they sucked so badly. With these scenes left largely intact, I had to write off the fanedit as something I would not want to watch again.
Man I sound brutal! But I'm giving honest feedback here, and remember this is just one opinion of what I look for in the movie. I am a long time Tolkien fan, read all of the books, so I'm very picky. I don't necessarily need a strict following of the books, but I don't want an arcade action movie. I most sincerely appreciate your efforts, ranger, seeing as how I have no fanedit skill myself! PEACE

 

[kellenpure]

I forgot to throw in my 1 cent about Gandalf. As with other feedback you have received, this storyline works, and I found your edit of it to be excellent. Ian McKellen is such an outstanding Gandalf, how would one not want to see more scenes with him!?

 

[Aztek463]

One thing I forgot to mention earlier that I remembered when [MENTION=27411]kellenpure[/MENTION] mentioned it: the river chase. Now, I generally liked the scene, it was certainly inventive and something we don't see very often. However, one gripe I had with the theatrical version (and every version of this film, fan edit or no) are the first person shots that look like they were filmed with a GoPro camera. You know them when you see them. Not a bad idea, but out of place for a film like this. Most reviews of the film have said the same thing on the matter.

I can see why the bit with the dwarves in the mountain might be a point of contention for some. As was discussed earlier with including Gandalf, I think the scene with the dwarves trying to kill Smaug works for this film as it's cut. Had the confrontation with Smaug been a midpoint in the film (like it would have been had this remained two films) a big action scene would have been too much. But seeing as it serves as the climax (and this is an epic action/adventure/fantasy film) ending without a huge confrontation would have felt, well, anti-climactic. Granted, the "loud film, quiet climax" worked for World War Z, but I don't think DOS could be edited (with the material on hand) in the same manner.

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

I mostly agree with kellenpure. Overall there's a lot to like about this and it is certainly an improvement over the theatrical cut. That said, deeper cuts ARE needed IMO. The majority of the barrel scene needs to go. It's another awful video game like action sequence that totally takes me out of the movie. I'd trim it WAY down similar to how kerr handled the Goblin Town sequence. The Legolas and Tauriel stuff is the worst offender.

I think the dwarves confrontation with Smaug is okay but again I'd trim more. I personally think, if possible, getting rid of all molten gold would drastically improve this whole scene.

The way you handled Laketown definitely worked for me. I really hated most of that stuff in the theatrical cut. For me, I guess, it comes down to feeling more cuts are needed, more silliness needs to be removed. I've always said PJ seems to be trying to stradle the line of keeping these films lighter a la the source material and having them fit with the LotR trilogy and it doesn't work. The best edits to me are the ones that embrace the latter and remove the silliness.

 

[Masirimso17]

I don't get what's wrong with the barrel scene, I thought it was awesome!

 

[Masirimso17]

Hi there, thanks for the thumbs up. I agree with you totally about Hobbit 1, and about the title of Part 3. The book was good enough without needing a ton of extraneous stuff thrown in.

Bolg/Azog are not 100% cut out. Bolg still attacks Mirkwood, and Azog attacks Gandalf. About the ring tho, I kept a few instances of its evil in--ie when hes at Beorns house, when fighting the spiders, and in Smaug's lair. The only one I cut is when they are standing outside Mirkwood and he is tempted by the ring. This felt terribly shoehorned in, and with Saurons eye on top of it? I felt ithey were trying too hard to remind us the ring is evil, and I cut it, but there are plenty of hints the ring is evil throughout the rest of the movie.

I hope you enjoy this edit. Please let me know what you think!

Great, because Azog and Bolg are very important for the third movie. And yes, the scene before Mirkwood where Bilbo is tempted by the ring WAS shoehorned terribly.

Like I said, I love The Hobbit movies and they are very well done, but they have lots of bad decisions that almost kills the movie. I still haven't watched the edit yet but when I do I'll write a review.

 

[ranger613]

First of all, thank you everyone for the good reviews!!

Last night I watched your DOS edit to escape the din of my 11 year old daughter's sleep over party. Thank the gods for good noise cancelling headphones! I tend to watch movies solo on my PC, which has a quality monitor, better than my TV. The video quality was excellent, and the audio good as well. Maybe others with higher fidelity systems will find otherwise, but for my purposes I was very satisfied with the technical aspect of the edit. I once again enjoyed the spectacle and detail of this Peter Jackson series. I can enjoy the movies on the manifestation of Middle Earth in itself.

Man I sound brutal! But I'm giving honest feedback here, and remember this is just one opinion of what I look for in the movie. I am a long time Tolkien fan, read all of the books, so I'm very picky. I don't necessarily need a strict following of the books, but I don't want an arcade action movie. I most sincerely appreciate your efforts, ranger, seeing as how I have no fanedit skill myself! PEACE

Thank you for reviewing the edit. I agree with you totally. Leaving the Tauriel/Legolas exchange in the prison was an oversight on my part, and I have cut this. Also made brief cuts to the Mirkwood battle where Tauriel looks at Kili concerned. Audio transitions have been cleaned up a little as well, especially the problematic Balin/Bilbo one in Smaug. I also rescored the end credits with I See Fire, but it plays After Misty Mountains Cold (sorry I love the dwarf theme).

The reason I left the barrel scene intact as well as Beorn and the "give up" thing at the end is that I don't think these made a major difference in the flow of the film. That said, I realize a lot of people hate a few consistent things--Barrel sequence, Dwarves in the Mountain at the end, etc. The arcade action stuff. This edit "Fire of the Dragon" is meant to distill the film itself into something I would watch, and I'm happy with the results.

However, there are a lot of fans who want a pure book cut, and I think what I will do is create a separate "Book Cut" of the movie--removing the dragon battle, cutting down the barrels, etc--a more purist cut for those who want it. I'll start working on this after uploading the final cut of "Fire of the Dragon". The "Book cut" will have a new name and new editing so that it isn't simply a watered down version of this edit--I may even consider padding it with Unexpected Journey--make a pure book cut.. we'll see... Lemme know if this is something that interests you. Cheers! And thanks again.

One thing I forgot to mention earlier that I remembered when kellenpure mentioned it: the river chase. Now, I generally liked the scene, it was certainly inventive and something we don't see very often. However, one gripe I had with the theatrical version (and every version of this film, fan edit or no) are the first person shots that look like they were filmed with a GoPro camera. You know them when you see them. Not a bad idea, but out of place for a film like this. Most reviews of the film have said the same thing on the matter.

I can see why the bit with the dwarves in the mountain might be a point of contention for some. As was discussed earlier with including Gandalf, I think the scene with the dwarves trying to kill Smaug works for this film as it's cut. Had the confrontation with Smaug been a midpoint in the film (like it would have been had this remained two films) a big action scene would have been too much. But seeing as it serves as the climax (and this is an epic action/adventure/fantasy film) ending without a huge confrontation would have felt, well, anti-climactic. Granted, the "loud film, quiet climax" worked for World War Z, but I don't think DOS could be edited (with the material on hand) in the same manner.

Agreed! When I started off this project, I too wanted a purist cut, removing all the stuff, but I realized I couldn't cut the dragon battle because, in the context of this film, it works as a good climax. What do you think my Book Cut idea above? My preferred cut of the movie will be this one, but I wonder what it will be like to follow the book even closer, minus all the video game stuff..

And the GoPro annoyed me too--but cutting it was very difficult (I tried), because the audio kept getting screwed up--I couldn't excise just those segments without losing chunks of the barrel sequence, which I thought was ok. But yes, if I do another alternate cut (with a new title), they will go!

I mostly agree with kellenpure. Overall there's a lot to like about this and it is certainly an improvement over the theatrical cut. That said, deeper cuts ARE needed IMO. The majority of the barrel scene needs to go. It's another awful video game like action sequence that totally takes me out of the movie. I'd trim it WAY down similar to how kerr handled the Goblin Town sequence. The Legolas and Tauriel stuff is the worst offender.

I think the dwarves confrontation with Smaug is okay but again I'd trim more. I personally think, if possible, getting rid of all molten gold would drastically improve this whole scene.

The way you handled Laketown definitely worked for me. I really hated most of that stuff in the theatrical cut. For me, I guess, it comes down to feeling more cuts are needed, more silliness needs to be removed. I've always said PJ seems to be trying to stradle the line of keeping these films lighter a la the source material and having them fit with the LotR trilogy and it doesn't work. The best edits to me are the ones that embrace the latter and remove the silliness.

Thank you for the good review! Yes I made this cut for myself because it would probably be how I wouldv'e liked the film to be. I recut it and have a final cut ready to upload. However, a "Book Cut" is a good idea (see above), and I'm toying with it.. Thanks!

I don't get what's wrong with the barrel scene, I thought it was awesome!

Hi, yup I liked it too, as well as the climax (both are fully retained in this edit). But they are significantly different from the novel, so I feel an alternate cut for those who want it may be a good idea..

 

[ranger613]

P.S> How do you "mention" someone in a post? Sorry.

 

[hbenthow]

I think that a big part of the reason a lot of the people don't like parts of the barrel scene is because it's so overblown and cartoonish (not so much just that it's different from the book). Peter Jackson has had that problem for quite a few years now. One of the most noticeable previous examples is in his "King Kong": Kong juggles Ann Darrow all over the place, while fighting three dinosaurs and falling off a cliff, and she barely has a scratch.

P.S> How do you "mention" someone in a post? Sorry.

Click the "Go Advanced" button. In the options above the text field, you should be able to find the mention button (it's blue and looks sort of like a speaker), and is all the way on the right on the bottom row of options.

 

[ranger613]

I think that a big part of the reason a lot of the people don't like parts of the barrel scene is because it's so overblown and cartoonish (not so much just that it's different from the book). Peter Jackson has had that problem for quite a few years now. One of the most noticeable previous examples is in his "King Kong": Kong juggles Ann Darrow all over the place, while fighting three dinosaurs and falling off a cliff, and she barely has a scratch.



Click the "Go Advanced" button. In the options above the text field, you should be able to find the mention button (it's blue and looks sort of like a speaker), and is all the way on the right on the bottom row of options.

Agreed. I'm not sure why he has to do this, like he's making kid movies.. And thank you [MENTION=8666]hbenthow[/MENTION]! ;-)

 

[Neglify]

P.S> How do you "mention" someone in a post? Sorry.

Easy way, put an @ symbol before their user name. But make sure to spell properly. @+ranger613 = [MENTION=10544]ranger613[/MENTION]

 

[Aztek463]

And the GoPro annoyed me too--but cutting it was very difficult (I tried), because the audio kept getting screwed up--I couldn't excise just those segments without losing chunks of the barrel sequence, which I thought was ok. But yes, if I do another alternate cut (with a new title), they will go!

Fair enough! I do like the idea of a shorter book cut. I know Kerr is going to try that as well, but even he said he was probably going to do it as two movies. But two different editors working on the same type of project will still yield different results.

 

[ranger613]

Another question about this edit-- the scene in the lair where Thorin holds a blade up to prevent Bilbo from getting past him and threatening him--I wanted to cut this as it did not seem logical. But I left it in because it highlighted how greedy these dwarves actually were in real life... Is it better to leave this in?

P.S. I took another look and cut out all the GoPro shots. They were way too distracting

 

[kellenpure]

The "Book cut" will have a new name and new editing so that it isn't simply a watered down version of this edit--I may even consider padding it with Unexpected Journey--make a pure book cut.. we'll see... Lemme know if this is something that interests you. Cheers! And thanks again.

Absolutely interested. Though I would describe what I'm looking for as a "Serious Cut", meaning more believable action and fewer silly lines. Minor straying from the book is fine, as long as it's done in context and does not flat out disregard the Tolkien mythos (such as a dwarf/elf love interest). I think you really summed it up, there are clearly two ways to edit this movie. The version you have created improves on the theater release, but preserves the Hollywood formula enough that a general audience would still enjoy it. A "Book" or "Serious" cut typically will not hold as wide an audience.

Ultimately my wish is future technology where Thorin can be given a beard that is fitting for dwarven nobility!

 

[Aztek463]

Another question about this edit-- the scene in the lair where Thorin holds a blade up to prevent Bilbo from getting past him and threatening him--I wanted to cut this as it did not seem logical. But I left it in because it highlighted how greedy these dwarves actually were in real life... Is it better to leave this in?

I would leave it in. I dunno if I would go as far to say that all dwarves are greedy, but it shows what Elrond was talking about in AUJ...the corruption of the line of Durin. You're right, it isn't logical, but at that time, Thorin isn't exactly being logical.

 

[ranger613]

I would leave it in. I dunno if I would go as far to say that all dwarves are greedy, but it shows what Elrond was talking about in AUJ...the corruption of the line of Durin. You're right, it isn't logical, but at that time, Thorin isn't exactly being logical.

Good point man.. yup I forgot about the sickness in the family thing. Thanks