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The ARROWVERSE (Flash, Arrow, Supergirl, Legends,etc)

bionicbob

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http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dM8dI_-P9o[/video]

With a new season only weeks away, I was thinking maybe it was time to consolidate the various Arrowverse shows into a single thread?

These fun shows have become so integrated with each other... characters (both heroes and villains) crossing over between all shows.... it is perhaps the best onscreen shared universe created.

And today, the next four show cross over was announced....
DCTV-Crossover_CVR-FNL_9215b15d-600x923.jpg


Poster inspired by comic covers of the classic JLA/JSA team ups...
latest


In the comics, Earth-X is a world where Nazi's won WWII.  Considering some of the headlines this past year, this could be a relevant topic.  Plus, it looks like the crossover will feature the wedding of Barry and Iris.   Hopefully this cross over will be better executed than last season's INVASION, which started out strong but was derailed somewhat by ARROW's 100th episode.

:)
 

gazza

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looking forward to upgraded flash suit that is consealed in ring
 

bionicbob

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Flash season four... 

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpmX4awpEgk[/video]
 

gazza

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Arrow season 6

dc legends of tomorrow  season 3

Supergirl season 3
 

Gaith

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bionicbob said:
With a new season only weeks away, I was thinking maybe it was time to consolidate the various Arrowverse shows into a single thread?

Hm, not sure I agree there. I myself watch The Flash shortly after it airs, but save LoT for the smoother connection on Netflix. Arrow I gave up on long ago, with the highly praised S5 tempting me not at all, and after Supergirl didn't grab me in S1, several of you suggested I jump straight to S2, though the seeming consensus there is that after starting out strong, that season seriously fizzled - as in, maybe it never got terrible, but it certainly didn't become great, either.

I still enjoy Flash, for its character dynamics if nothing else, but I've become pretty darn sick of Wally and his awful suit mask, and even without a speedster Big Bad, I don't know how much longer its running-in-circles shtick will keep things afloat. Of the bunch, only LoT really seems to take risks and blaze new paths, much like Agents of SHIELD over on ABC. And it sounds as though all the non-LoT Arrowverse shows have too many costumed heroes, at the expense of normal, everyday characters. Hell, now that there are three speedsters on Team Flash, the show has to make up regular excuses to keep at least one of them out of the picture, so as to not overwhelm any and every possible threat, and that's getting old.

Bottom line? Yeah, the crossovers are fun, but I wonder if the shared universes don't ultimately do more harm than good. I'm not sure it's a coincidence Arrow started going downhill when The Flash hit the scene, with Barry theoretically able to solve all of Ollie's problems in a day or two, and then The Flash started sputtering when LoT started up, with that team theoretically able to stop Barry's problems from existing in the first place!

Such are my Arrowverse thoughts. Take 'em, or... well, you know. :p
 

bionicbob

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Gaith said:
Such are my Arrowverse thoughts. Take 'em, or... well, you know. :p

You have many valid points my friend, though my feelings are sort of the opposite... lol.

For me, LEGENDS continues to be the weakest of the four current shows.  I agree, it is easily the most ambitious of the Arrowverse shows, even if its reach exceeds its grasp most times.  Each episode usually has one real Cool-Wow Moment.  It certainly has a Guardians of the Galaxy vibe to it, with humorous emphasis on our Legends misfit/screw up qualities which is a nice departure from the other series.  But for me, it continues to be the most sloppily written series too.  Every episode I watch there is always a scene where I go "What The Frak?!?!???" LOL  7/10

Like you, I continue to love THE FLASH for the same reasons... fantastic character dynamics.   Season 3 had some misfires.... Flashpoint was not developed enough.  I agree, the Big Bad Savitar plot was mishandled.  It might have worked better if the Evil Barry reveal had happened much earlier in the season, allowing the show to explore that aspect more.  Though I loved the season wrap up, until the last 5 minutes.  After all Barry sacrificed to save Iris, he seemed way too willing to go into the Speed Force.   But season four sounds like the producers have listened to fans concerns, and are making some smart course corrections. 8/10

ARROW completely redeemed itself this past season for me.  I have nothing really bad to say about it.  It reasserted itself as the BEST stunt/action show (sorry Daredevil) on TV.  The new Team Arrow brought some much needed freshness and explored the concept of inspiration and legacy.  Prometheus was an excellent Big Bad.  The Island flashback have finally (thankfully) come to an end and connected nicely back to the pilot.  I thought the cliffhanger season ender was unneeded and a bit too 90s for me.  But otherwise a stellar character rich season. 9/10

SUPERGIRL I loved this past season.   I thought using it as a platform for many of the topical social/poltical issues the world is currently enduring was a brilliant move on the part of the writers.   Alex's journey was heartfelt and truthful.  The romcom dynamic between Kara and Mon-el was excellent.  The introduction of Lillian and Lena Luthor, replacing Max Lord, was another smart move and increased the dramatic tension with the Cadmus subplot. And the show introduced the BEST Superman since Chris Reeve!   I admit, the Jimmy/Guardian plot line did not entirely work for me.  And the final two part season wrap was perhaps the weakest episodes of the entire season as it felt too rushed, with the final solution and sacrifice feeling half baked. 9/10

[font=Raleway, sans-serif] And it sounds as though [/font][font=Raleway, sans-serif]all [/font][font=Raleway, sans-serif]the non-[/font][font=Raleway, sans-serif]LoT [/font][font=Raleway, sans-serif]Arrowverse shows have too many costumed heroes, at the expense of normal, everyday characters.[/font]

Actually, this is one of the aspects of all the shows I love!  I grew up reading and worshiping DC comics, thus seeing these character brought to life is pure joy for me.   And the producers are smart, even though they wear costumes, they are still well crafted and complex characters, with problems like normal people (well sorta...lol).  If superheroes existed, it makes sense they would inspire more costume heroes and would interact with them.  This is one of the main themes that runs through Arrrow, Flash and Supergirl... inspiration and responsibility to those you inspire.  And yes, all the powered shows find excuses for our heroes to either not use their powers (LEGENDS is by far the most guilty of this) or not be involved in a villain show down, but superhero comics have been like this since the dawn of time.  Just like how a heroes powers and abilities seem to fluctuate depending on the writers' plot.   Its a trope you have to learn to roll with in this type of genre. :D

But for me, never enough costumed heroes!!!!  
cw_dctv_poster_by_timetravel6000v2-dbecpmi.jpg

:)
 

bionicbob

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...I'll have fries with that.   :p

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5R5mlGk1PCw[/video]
 

Zamros

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cw_dctv_poster_by_timetravel6000v2-dbecpmi.jpg

:)

Goodness, keep that abomination of graphic design away from me!

I gave up on Arrow when Season 3 ended, Season 4 seems to be exactly what I thought the show would devolve into. Apparently S5 is really good, so I may give it a shot and just skip S4, but I don't know if I can handle seeing Felicity's stupid face once more.

I got bored of Flash in early Season 2 when it became apparent it wasn't going to be much more than a run-of-the-mill monster-of-the-week show. The villain was another speedster that wanted to be the fastest man alive. Then I get to Season 3 and I turn away from it completely. Really? Savitar? Seriously? And yeah, the s3 twist is even more obvious than the s2 one. If Season 4 has a main villain that isn't a speedster, it'll be the best one yet by default, but I still won't watch it. I practically had the beats of each episode mapped out before they started. Villain introduced. Barry gets cocky. Barry gets comeuppance. Meaningless spat between characters. Barry investigates. Spat continues. Minor plot point for next episode brought up. Barry tries to take on villain. Barry fails. Iris reminds Barry that he has to run. Barry runs. Villain defeated. Spat resolved in a neat bow and never brought up again.
I spend a lot of my time watching Flash, looking at my phone, and yet I somehow miss nothing.

Legends of Tomorrow is fun, purely for the historical setting of the week, which allows for some difference in plotlines. It still hits all the usual beats, but usually they're minor and no way near as ham-fisted as Flash. However, for a historical show, it has about as much historical accuracy or authenticity as a Mel Gibson movie. The "Confederate Zombies" episode was a laughable one for me, with it's... strange interpretation of the times. Some random slave recognises a heroes' necklace is from the Zambezi region? Because her... ancestors were from the Zambezi? Wait... what? The writers know what Africa is right? They know how awkward it would be to get slaves from the Zambian basin? Probably not. They just thought "Ah fuck it. West Africa? Zambia? Same thing. See? They even have a country that sounds like Zambia in West Africa!" If they were talking to slaves in Brazil, maaaaybe I'd buy it, but Confederate slaves? Also they might as well have made General Grant turn water into wine, they were glorifying him so much.

Also, while I'm ranting. THEY HAVE GEORGE LUCAS IN AN EPISODE. And it is such a lazy performance, I'm a little stunned. Like. Guys, you have video of George Lucas speaking. George Lucas is STILL FUCKING ALIVE! Yet they have the actor just... act nothing at all like George Lucas in any way.

Supergirl was ok, I guess. Only real groan-worthy moment for me was hearing "Girls Wanna Have Fun" in the background of like one scene. Otherwise, it's pretty bland, inoffensive, CW-smut.
 

gazza

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i always hear this when i see the flash running
 

Gaith

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Okay, I don't even have any personal fondness for E.T., but LoT's "Phone Home" was still an engine of pure delight from start to finish. And bringing back Agent Antarctica from the "Invasion!" crossover was inspired, though maybe his hair should have had a few gray streaks by that point? Though the premiere was something of a letdown after the promise of the cliffhanger, it wasn't at all bad, and the show's epic winning streak continues.

Phone_Home.jpg

Dear Legends of Tomorrow, I love you, you're perfect, never change.

Meanwhile, Flash's writers are leaning their full weights on their switchboard's Comedy button, and the results thus far have been pretty great. They took my advice and finally sent Wally packing, to boot! He isn't even on the Crisis poster, is he. (And, while I'd hate to lose Tom Cavanagh, I'm not quite sure just what Harry brings to the table at this point, either.) Like I said, I didn't dislike Flash S3, but the new direction and tone was absolutely the right call.

And though I'm still not tempted to return to Arrow, whose plots I've read about sounds pretty darn dull, I'm glad to hear Olicity is back on, and that Merlyn is indeed apparently dead - not that Barrowman wasn't awesome, but he had nowhere to go, and had stuck around too long as is.
 

bionicbob

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The recent Justice League not to your satisfaction?

Maybe this will be more your cup of tea....

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VK1ushRMsM[/video]

As much as I enjoyed the JL movie, the Arrowverse is still the BEST superhero shared verse imo.  :D
 

gazza

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bionicbob said:
The recent Justice League not to your satisfaction?

Maybe this will be more your cup of tea....

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VK1ushRMsM[/video]

As much as I enjoyed the JL movie, the Arrowverse is still the BEST superhero shared verse imo.  :D

i always find it amusing that superheroes find streets wide enough to walk in a straight line side by side.
legends are killing it this season especially with the 80s episode,flash is leading up to a big payoff with their mastermind villain, arrow has lost its footing this season i think with quinn not being the arrow and his team not fighting over who wants to fill the role,then comes supergirl who usually has strong seasons has become more of a relationship drama with supergirls varied levels of power each week being beaten by street thugs  then next week smashing trucks,shows needs less relationship fighting and more superhero fights imo

i have high hopes for the crossover im looking forward to seeing cpt cold and heatwave brothers reunite
 

bionicbob

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Holy Crossovers!

Just watched parts one and two of CRISIS ON EARTH-X, and while I will avoid spoiler discussion for now, I will say, this cross over clearly exemplifies why the Arrowverse is the best realized onscreen shared universe, superior both to the DC and Marvel movies. These two hours were more enjoyable, more fun, more heroic, more epic than any of their 200million dollar budget counterparts in my humble opinion.  And why?  Because it embraces all the iconic, wonderful and even silly tropes that have been the successful foundation of comic book heroes for the last 75 years, without having to go all deconstructive or grim and gritty.  The Arrowverse shows whole heartedly embrace their comic booky roots, from the Golden through the Silver to the Modern Age, and wear their masks, capes and outlandish costumes with pride.  I love it!!!

This season in general, all the shows are in a comfortable groove and each has settled into their own voice and style.

SUPERGIRL -- As another pointed out, yes, it is in many ways is a Relationship Show.  When the villain of the week is disposable, and let's face it, it's pretty much impossible to create a threat to Supergirl, it is the relationships between the characters that keep me tuned in and many times gives me the Feels.   Overall, I still find it very entertaining and enjoy it's fresh perspective compared to the other Arrow shows.  I like how this season it is taking its time building up the Big Bad of Reign and bringing in the scene chewing Adrian Pasdar as a new foil was a brilliant move.   And now, the teasing of the Legion of Super-Heroes.... my inner fanboy is giddy with anticipation LOL

FLASH -- Probably the BEST Arrow show at the moment.  This season has been exceptionally strong so far, and has introduced one of the best and most complex villains to the Flash's Rogue Gallery -- the Thinker.  Equally wonderful is the addition of actor Hartley Sawyer (who reminds me of a cross between David Tennent and Jim Carrey) as Elongated Man, which is a nice nod to the silver age comics when Barry's best friends were Hal (Green Lantern) Jordan and Ralph Dibny.   As usual, the Flash Family dynamics keeps you caring and watching each week.  Though poor Kid Flash seems to be getting little to no screen time.  They really should move him to the Legends team.

LEGENDS OF TOMORROW -- always entertaining, this show expertly walks the line between fun and silly.  Each week you tune to see what stupid mistake/decision the Legends will make this time and how they will clean up their mess.  At first this used to annoy me because I think I wanted a different type of show, a more Justice League type of show.  But once I understood this was a show about screw ups and misfits, I was able to climb aboard the Waverider and go along for the insane ride.  I have been really impressed with the casting this season of the "historical" guests, which in the past have been a real weakness.  Caesar in particular was spot on casting.   And the return of Damain Darhk is always welcomed, as he is the ultimate moustache twirling villain and steals every scene he is in.

ARROW -- the show that started it all... in many respects it feels like a different show.  The flashbacks are thankfully gone and the episodes feel narratively stronger and more developed because of it.   The show has been taking it time exploring characters in a more mature way than past seasons, which I welcome.  The villains thus far have been tantalizing and not one note as in the past.  Though of all the shows, Arrow thus far is the most vague in what the driving story arc will be this season.  Arrow remains the best action choreographed show on television.  I am astounded at the practical stunt work they pull off week after week.  

Anyway, those are just my general impressions thus far... what can I say?  I love my Arrow TV!  :D

Now bring on more CRISIS!!! 
http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGXpqe--BYU[/video]
 

MusicEd921

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My ONLY complaint was the amount of melodrama during Part 2.  Surprisingly there was little to no drama between Barry and Iris and the scene between Jax and Stein was so poignant that it felt a little lost among the other cringy stuff.

As I was watching it I was thinking about how this would actually make for a great movie edit, of course that depends on how it concludes tonight.  I was hoping to see someone edit Invasion! into a more feature length movie, but that one would be tricky given how the Arrow episode became all about, well Arrow.
 

bionicbob

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Wow!

CRISIS ON EARTH -X parts three and four watched!!!   Amazeballs!

In terms of superhero action, parts one and four were clearly the strongest, while parts two and three were relegated more to character interaction and plot development.

The logistics that went into this four show event must have been insane!?!  Not to mention the cgi budget!  But it was well worth it, truly rewarding EVENT television.  So much fun. :D

Of course it is not perfect, there are a lot of unanswered questions... 

What is the deal with Thawne working with Nazi's?  He did it last year in Legends, and now he is travelling to alternate Earths to help them.  I guess Evil loves hanging with other Evil lol.
Where did the evil Waverrider come from?  
What's the deal with The Ray being from Earth-1?  ( I assume this will be explored in the animated series )
Why didn't  Flash take Thawne to Iron Heights Meta Prison?
Where did Oliver get Kryptonite from????
Whatever happened to Superman-X?
Ollie-X is the Fuhrer?

I am sure, after I rewatch there will be even more obvious lingering questions... 

Favourite highlights off of the top of my head....

--William "The Greatest American Hero" Katt cameo!
--Kara sings!
--the giddy wedding waitress.... Barry's future daughter or granddaughter I assume?
--Tommy Merlyn!?!!
--Sara and Alex!
--the classic slo-mo heroic super hero suit up trope!  PERFECTION.
--Oliver: "Super speed.  I don't have it"  -- laughed so hard.
--"General, care to step out side?"
--Leo Snart... hilarious.
--Franz Drameh's performance.  I cried.  I really did.  Powerful stuff.

So many wonderful moments, too many to list.  Warner/CW really should release this as a separate dvd movie.  If not, I will definitely be creating my own cut.

Next week, the Fall Season finals.
 

MusicEd921

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It truly was an epic event and one that will be hard to top in future crossovers.  Wow, that is definitely how you do a crossover though!  Literally the ONLY thing that soured this for me was the excruciating
Olicity wedding.  I get it that she changed her mind, but did she have to hijack Barry and Iris' moment after this whole thing started with their almost wedding?

God, I hate Felicity SOOOO much.
 

bionicbob

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musiced921 said:
It truly was an epic event and one that will be hard to top in future crossovers. 

I would love to see a crossover closer to the JLA/JSA team up.... we saw a very underwhelming (i.e. disappointing) version of the JSA on Legends.  Continue with the CRISIS motif, and build it around Earth-3's Flash (Shipp's really needs the spotlight) and his team... Imagine Benoist as Power Girl LOL.

Or, as they said, 53 Earths, 53 Kryptons, 53 Karas..... since there is no Supergirl on Earth-1, maybe Krypton never exploded in this universe? And now, Krypton is dying, so the Kryptonians want to colonize Earth!  It could be a variation on the World/War of Krypton story arc.

[font=Raleway, sans-serif]God, I hate Felicity SOOOO much.[/font]

I have enjoyed how the writers have handled Ollie and Felicity's relationship this time around on Arrow.
But yeah.... this was just AWKWARD!   :p
 

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I also hope that WB/CW releases this as its own separate movie, because it definitely deserves that honor. That said, I had a few issues.

  • Bringing back Thawne was cheap. I get that he's come back in comics before using Speed Force magic, but this was the wrong place to try and do that. Which is a shame, because I thought I just preferred Tom Cavanaugh over Matt Letscher (even though Letscher was still very good), but no, Thawne just being alive and evil despite being erased from history TWICE was just too much.  Having an evil-for-the-sake-of-evil Barry (different from Savitar) would have been a ot more fun. If they had to bring in Thawne (with or without Wells' face), he could have had his speed drained by Barry X like what happened with Zoom. Also, be vague on whether this is Earth-1 Thawne or Earth X-Thawne.
  • The Ray being from Earth one really took me out of the experience whenever it was brought up. It was very much a hook to try and get viewers to watch his show on the CW Seed.
  • The kryptonite arrow actually didn't bug me too much, but I would have liked a line of dialogue from wither Oliver or Felicity going "I may have pressured Cisco into breaching us to an Earth that could help us stop an evil Kara," or something to that effect.
  • Leo Snart and Barry's self-righteousness when it comes to "due process" and not stopping Thawne from escaping. Those just felt out of character, especially given the circumstances of what was going on.
As for the highlights:

  • Melissa Benoist was great as Overgirl
  • Loved the character interplay between Alex and Sara.
  • The fight choreography and big scale action scenes were fantastic.
  • Not pulling any punches on just how awful the Nazis were (concentration camps, yellow stars and pink triangles, Quentin-X MURDERING Sara-X for being bisexual, Felicity-X etc.).
  • Sara's "because I love men and I love women" was a great act of defiance, plus it was a nice bit of reassurance to the fans who were worried about the writers erasing her bi-ness.
  • Leo Snart not only coming back to Earth-1 (for awhile anyway), but also being at the very least gay.
  • As much as I wish things turned out better for him,
    Stein's death was actually handled very well and actually got me teary-eyed, and you can thank Franz Drameh's performance for a lot of that.
    The cynical side of me says that the writers did this because they needed some way to top Invasion from last year, but I'm not saying it doesn't work.
  • YMMV, but I loved the double wedding at the end. Granted, Felicity Smoak is not a perfect character, but it really feels like she can do no right in the fans eyes (people got mad when she rejected the marriage proposal, then they got mad when she accepted it? That makes sense). Besides, these crossovers have all felt like they had Barry and Oliver at their core (except Legends of Today/Yesterday), so it makes a kind of sense that one of these things should end with Arrowverse-Batman and Arrowverse-Superman being married at the same time.
EDIT: Also, aside from narrative convenience and saving the writers from putting a potential second wedding in a future Arrow episode giving so that people can complain at that point ( :dodgy: ), rememebr that Oliver's being indicted, they just saved potentially two worlds and all the multiverse, and John being the minister, it's probably going to be the last happy moment they all have together and they don't want to let it go to waste.
Excited for the mid-season finales.  Here's hoping Black Lightning is in next year's crossover. ;)
 

MusicEd921

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Nic said:
[*]YMMV, but I loved the double wedding at the end. Granted, Felicity Smoak is not a perfect character, but it really feels like she can do no right in the fans eyes (people got mad when she rejected the marriage proposal, then they got mad when she accepted it? That makes sense). 

LOVED your review, but I had to address this one.

As someone who hasn't hid their feelings in regards to Felicity, I will say that her decision to make a scene at the rehearsal dinner followed by stopping Iris and Barry's ceremony mid-way to steal their thunder was ridiculous.  Oliver had the decency to talk quietly to Felicity at the rehearsal dinner about his feelings and she made a scene out of it.  Also, after everything they had been through just to get married, it was pretty selfish to interrupt the Flash wedding because she FINALLY had the realization that NOW she wants to get married.  It could've followed immediately after Barry and Iris', not at the tail end of theirs.  We'd hate real life people who do this type of stuff, so while I can accept an archer who shoots Kryptonite arrows and a man who can shrink down to an atom, I can't accept a human's behavior like making someone else's wedding about yourself.
 

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Yeah, I get that. Lord knows I'd hate if someone were to make a scene at my wedding like that. I guess it's how the story is set up/how the network chose to structure it. If Felicity did something like this in, say, Flash's ladies night episode from a few weeks ago, I would have been frustrated because it would take away from that story, really coming across like the writers were shoving her in everyone's faces.

It's just one of those breaks from reality I can accept for the sake of the story, but I get that not everyone (probably most) will.
 
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