Superman Legacy

[henzINNIT]

From a strictly action standpoint, it seems he is so overpowered that there is little tension in that regard. How many times can someone disable him with Kryptonite, after all, and still have it be compelling storytelling?

I think the trick with Superman is to reframe the stakes. He's not physically vulnerable (often) but he is in other ways. You can out-manuvre him, force him to react to threats, make it dificult for him to save everybody. Action sequences for Supes should rarely be about winning a straight fight, but saving lives, heroism, problem solving; overcoming impossible odds. Have a Clark Kent who is such a good guy that you want him to succeed, and that the price of failure is catastrophic for him. Living up to his own standards is a hell of a challenge, and can create tremendous stakes for Supes.

(from a not huge Superman fan admittedly)

 

[DirtyCop1036]

I think the trick with Superman is to reframe the stakes. He's not physically vulnerable (often) but he is in other ways. You can out-manuvre him, force him to react to threats, make it dificult for him to save everybody. Action sequences for Supes should rarely be about winning a straight fight, but saving lives, heroism, problem solving; overcoming impossible odds. Have a Clark Kent who is such a good guy that you want him to succeed, and that the price of failure is catastrophic for him. Living up to his own standards is a hell of a challenge, and can create tremendous stakes for Supes.

(from a not huge Superman fan admittedly)

For that to work, they have to take example from the post-Crisis Superman and the '96 animated show by seriously toning down his capabilities. 3rd act of the 78 film was exactly like this, two nuclear missiles, civilians to save, impossible odds, even Superman can't be everywhere, so he has to pay the ultimate price. Ballsy ending, but it was ruined (kinda) by him just speeding around the globe to travel back in time and undo the villain's actions. So if he can just make problems disappear instead of actually solving them or coping with their consequences, what's the point of the movie?

PS: Don't get me wrong, I still love that scene tho.

 

[bionicbob]

Can I ask the Superman fans what it is they want from a Superman movie?

Hope. Friendship. Humanity.

Over his 85 years of incarnations, when Superman is done right, these are the three characteristics that always shine through for me.

Whether you subscribe to the theory that Superman is the disguise or is his real nature, it is Kal-el's struggle to do good, to be good, to promote good, that is the heart of the character. While often described as a "Boy Scout", that is a simplistic and inaccurate interpretation. Clark Kent/Superman is not some Pure, Angelic Being. He has struggles, doubts, moments of temptation and weakness. But it is how he addresses these issues, that makes him a hero.

As someone smarter to me said, Superman does not need to Relevant, he needs to be INSPIRATIONAL.

Superman should be someone we want to be. A mentor. A role model. A friend. But he is not a God.

He may have godlike abilities, but it is his choices of how he uses those abilities, that make him Human.

When the comics or tv shows or movies focus on these elements, not on the spectacle of fighting, is when the character works the best imo.

 

[Moe_Syzlak]

Hope. Friendship. Humanity.

Over his 85 years of incarnations, when Superman is done right, these are the three characteristics that always shine through for me.

Whether you subscribe to the theory that Superman is the disguise or is his real nature, it is Kal-el's struggle to do good, to be good, to promote good, that is the heart of the character. While often described as a "Boy Scout", that is a simplistic and inaccurate interpretation. Clark Kent/Superman is not some Pure, Angelic Being. He has struggles, doubts, moments of temptation and weakness. But it is how he addresses these issues, that makes him a hero.

As someone smarter to me said, Superman does not need to Relevant, he needs to be INSPIRATIONAL.

Superman should be someone we want to be. A mentor. A role model. A friend. But he is not a God.

He may have godlike abilities, but it is his choices of how he uses those abilities, that make him Human.

When the comics or tv shows or movies focus on these elements, not on the spectacle of fighting, is when the character works the best imo.

Okay, but my question is how? How do you want to see those attributes come through in a blockbuster movie? I’m all for it, personally. That’s what I liked about the idea of the Snyder movies. He’s struggling to be good; to be that idealized inspiration, but in the face of a humanity that fears him and rejects his humanity. That seems like interesting drama to me (not that the film succeeded for me). Now, I’m not sure the pitting of him against other aliens is the way to best do that. But I’m also not sure I want to see Lex Luthor or someone as an antagonist because it seems we always come down to “oh no, Kryptonite” when he doesn’t face someone as powerful a ls he is.

I think your description is great, by the way. I just struggle to see that happening in a typical superhero movie that spends half its runtime on CGI action set pieces.

 

[DirtyCop1036]

I think your description is great, by the way. I just struggle to see that happening in a typical superhero movie that spends half its runtime on CGI action set pieces.

A villain that can be both a physical and cerebral threat to Big Blue is Mr. Mxyzptlk, a magical being from the fifth dimension whose favorite hobby is to challenge Superman's intellect by exploiting Clark's weakness to magic and projecting illusions that shape reality. Mr. Mxyzptlk can only be beaten if Supes finds a way to make him pronounce his name backward.

This can be a cool way to introduce audiences to the clever side of Superman, someone who can rely not only on his brute force but also on his intelligence. I don't like Gunn's description of him when he introduced his version of the character as a "big ol' galoot", that's not Superman, he's not some goofy dude from Kansas, he's a being of light, he's strength and brains, he can be candid but never naive, Supe's no fool.

 

[DirtyCop1036]

Whether you subscribe to the theory that Superman is the disguise or is his real nature, it is Kal-el's struggle to do good, to be good, to promote good, that is the heart of the character.

The Kill Bill theory

I don't subscribe to it, Superman is Clark, and Clark is Superman. If Superman can't be Clark he'll go nuts, and vice versa. There's a line in the episode The Late Mr. Kent of Superman TAS, that summums perfectly the situation "But I am Clark! I need to be Clark! I’d go crazy if I had to be Superman all the time!”

 

[bionicbob]

Okay, but my question is how? How do you want to see those attributes come through in a blockbuster movie?

Relationships.

What makes me love Superman is his relationships. There is a reason Superman has one of the most well known supporting casts in all of comics. It is through his relationships with his friends and colleagues that the MAN in Superman is defined. His Kanas upbringing with the Kents, his mentorship of Jimmy Olson, his epic love story with Lois, his antagonistic rivalry with Lex.... by showing how he reacts and treats others, how they in turn respond to him, is how you build great character. This is why most television versions of Superman usually work better and are more accurate, as the tv shows have limited budgets, and have to focus and develop relationships. Also, since tv shows have a much shorter runtime, they work harder and smarter to make the audience identify with and like a character.

It is a lesson many modern filmmakers seem to have trouble learning. A 200 million-plus dollar budget for CGI does not build character.
Will Gunn be able to balance Character and Spectacle? I hope so. I really enjoy his Guardians flicks. He clearly understands Classical Heroism and building likeable characters. But will he be able to control his tendency of going too far with idiotic humor?

 

[DirtyCop1036]

I love Twitter.

 

[PanteraSteel]

If anyone is excited for this new Superman that's cool......I'd love to hear why though. WBD stock is plummeting, the studio meddles with everything and in 50 years they've never made a proper Superman trilogy. In fact they fired the only two directors to deliver a good superman film to theaters so.....What exactly are you looking forward to?

Just curious....

I hope it's good, no one wants bad films, but for the first time in a long time I couldn't care less about anything upcoming from Batman or Superman. What is it that has you interested, if you are?

 

[Gibichung]

If anyone is excited for this new Superman that's cool......I'd love to hear why though. WBD stock is plummeting, the studio meddles with everything and in 50 years they've never made a proper Superman trilogy. In fact they fired the only two directors to deliver a good superman film to theaters so.....What exactly are you looking forward to?

Just curious....

I hope it's good, no one wants bad films, but for the first time in a long time I couldn't care less about anything upcoming from Batman or Superman. What is it that has you interested, if you are?

I'm kind of in the opposite. I'm so excited to get another Superman. Like, FINALLY. And not an origin story either. He's already Superman, and we got a few folks already as superheroes. We're getting a proper Jimmy Olsen. A proper Lex Luthor. Superman's the good guy, Lex is the bad guy- I mean, what more can I ask for? It shouldn't be rocket science and it's a travesty we never got a real Man of Steel sequel.

I always liked Gunn's movies. I think what he does best is not comedy, not action, and I'd argue not even characters (although he has very well written characters). I think what he does best is story. He has such great handle of story and beats, etc.

I think this is gonna be some good food, y'all.

 

[DirtyCop1036]

If anyone is excited for this new Superman that's cool......I'd love to hear why though. WBD stock is plummeting, the studio meddles with everything and in 50 years they've never made a proper Superman trilogy. In fact they fired the only two directors to deliver a good superman film to theaters so.....What exactly are you looking forward to?

Just curious....

I hope it's good, no one wants bad films, but for the first time in a long time I couldn't care less about anything upcoming from Batman or Superman. What is it that has you interested, if you are?

All that you said about Warner Bros is true, a greedy corporate studio more interested in making big money than art and failing for quite some time to deliver solid entertainment. Not only they butchered the DCEU, but they managed to turn their back on legends such as Christopher Nolan and Clint Eastwood with their terrible streaming policy to which they responded "It's show business not show friends".

Superman 2: Donner Cut being the ancestor of the Snyder Cut, with the studio even punishing Margot Kidder for standing for Donner, it gives you a perspective of how long there is something rotten in the kingdom of Warner.

I won't say I'm excited to see Superman Legacy, I love Big Blue, but he's nearly as prominent as Batman, so I'm more interested in characters let's say like Swamp Thing, Green Lantern and why not John Constantine. I just hold on to the promise of James Gunn of delivering artistically driven visions of these characters, and not some Studio meddling pot supervised by some algorithm and written by AI.

I loved his GOTG and Suicide Squad movies but hated his Peacemaker which is totally what they reproach to Snyder, some edge lord cringefest; look at how many f-words I can put in a single sentence! Look at how gore I can be! Let's mock every superhero and have the League show up late so you can see how lame they are! It's like something Garth Ennis could've written.

But I will render to Caesar what is Caesar's, despite my eclectic feelings for his work, I don't see many studio interferences in them, the dude has nearly carte blanche to do whatever the hell he wants in all of his movies, whether the final product is good or bad, we need more of this freedom in the blockbuster industry, and I believe he can, as an executive, bring that back onto DC, and maybe inspire Disney to do the same.

​

 

[addiesin]

I'm more in that second boat ^^ I've enjoyed the cape stuff Gunn has done. I've not really enjoyed the cape stuff Snyder has done nearly as much. I prefer all Snyder's non DC movies over his DC movies, Watchmen being a weird middle ground.

I don't know what to expect except for one thing, it won't be boring.

 

[Zarius]

The SnyderVerse was awesome cause it gave us something other than Fireman Sam with superpowers. With MoS for the first time I felt how powerful a son of Krypton can be, and the consequences if a fight between god-like creatures happened on Earth.

I'd rather have Fireman Sam. I'm not a 30 year old who thinks he's 15 so I'm not in Snyder's target demo at all. And I can at least take my kids to see Fireman Sam.

Films like Snyders' don't age well in my eyes. I kind of liked Man of Steel enough back in the day, I enjoyed the directors cut of BVS, but when I see how much of a religion the Snyder fans have made out of these movies...coming up with the ghastliest, immature hot takes on Superman I've ever seen, it just makes me glad Warner have washed their hands of his vision. It's made me realize deconstruction is just bad for capeflicks in general, they're dreary, depressing, they teach you bad faith, they make you assume the worst of people in this world, the characters are sociopaths and defeatist, films like that are just not good for your long-term mental health and I hope you realize that one day.

And as much as I love JMS for Babylon 5, Spider-Man, Sens8 etc...nobody remembers or cares about Superman Earth One

 

[DirtyCop1036]

I'd rather have Fireman Sam. I'm not a 30 year old who thinks he's 15 so I'm not in Snyder's target demo at all. And I can at least take my kids to see Fireman Sam.

And as much as I love JMS for Babylon 5, Spider-Man, Sens8 etc...nobody remembers or cares about Superman Earth One

To each his own, but as sure as night follows day, I'm glad the Dark Knight Trilogy opened for a brief period the path for a serious iteration of Superman that is entertaining and meaningful if not to children, at least to myself.

Comic book movies would be one hell of a boring genre if in 80 years of existing materials, they adapted only the most known stories. Also, the Earth One books rock, and if my memory is good, Gunn used comic covers in his DCU presentation video, to show us what influences the projects will have; All-Star Superman, Grant Morrison's Batman, Alan Moore's Swamp Thing, Wonder Woman Historia, Tom King's Woman of Tomorrow.... and Green Lantern Earth One, which is even more less known. Earth One, great series, better than a lot of the Black Label stuff.

 

[DirtyCop1036]

 

[Editzilla]

Can I ask the Superman fans what it is they want from a Superman movie?

Basically, something like Up In The Sky: