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Star Wars VIII - The Last Jedi

theforce

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Possessed said:
Yeah but it was too satirical, not enough genuine hate.  ?? although I will admit that despite being a fan rlm's general snobby attitude toward the sequel trilogy (and more annoyingly,  it's fans) does get on my nerves. 

But they also did a mr. Plinkett review on the force awakens, but on the half in the bag episode for it they generally liked it,  or didn't hate it.  On the TLJ episode, they didn't like it but didn't hate it either.

I find the FAKE Plinkett quite hilarious. He does a good job and the review of TLJ is quite and spot on mostly...It gets equal treatment like the treatment RLM gave to the Prequels.
 

Possessed

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Yeah but that supposes that TLJ had  equal quality to the prequels, and if you believe that then you're either just kidding yourself or you've gotten caught up in the troll bandwagon. 

*That's Not to say that i haven't found enjoyment and/or legitimate satisfaction from some fanedits of the prequels,  but you can't credit the official releases for that beyond just providing good source material. 

**this is obviously just my opinion, but my mind is quite boggled at anybody that says the sequel trilogy is worse than,  or even equal to,  the theatrical prequels. Sure they aren't as "original", but the execution is, imo, infinitely better and actually pretty competent. 

One of these days I'll watch a fanedit of the sequels that just trims some fat and removes some ill placed humour that doesn't contextually work,  and i strongly suspect I'll love it.
 

theforce

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Possessed said:
Yeah but that supposes that TLJ had  equal quality to the prequels, and if you believe that then you're either just kidding yourself or you've gotten caught up in the troll bandwagon. 

*That's Not to say that i haven't found enjoyment and/or legitimate satisfaction from some fanedits of the prequels,  but you can't credit the official releases for that beyond just providing good source material. 

**this is obviously just my opinion, but my mind is quite boggled at anybody that says the sequel trilogy is worse than,  or even equal to,  the theatrical prequels. Sure they aren't as "original", but the execution is, imo, infinitely better and actually pretty competent. 

One of these days I'll watch a fanedit of the sequels that just trims some fat and removes some ill placed humour that doesn't contextually work,  and i strongly suspect I'll love it.

For me the episode 7 and 8 are  not as good as the PT because they have no heart in them.  The PT did for all its faults, thats my opinion and there will always be endless debates on this....that's why it quite hilarious too see the people who like the ST defend them like its gold because most likely these same people are the ones that hated the PT.  Its hilarious I love reading this stuff on the force.net as well. Now the Fans of the PT who grew up with them have a nice smile on their faces because the shoe is on the other foot.

The ST have no soul and are soft reboots of episode 4 and 5 and 6...nothing original.....same old same old....I wish JJ well on his Retcon job....without a doubt this proved to me that they couldn't do it better than George Lucas.......honestly i prefer Solo and Rogue One over episodes 7 and 8 oddly enough.

I am glad you enjoy the ST and your mind shouldn't be boggled by anything...we all have a difference of opinion....no one is right and no one is wrong....only time will dictate whats a classic and what is a failure....I prefer a good original story over the play it safe routine. 

I just found the fake plinkett review entertaining and you can see what the reviewer is getting at......and the more you analyze TLJ the more messed up it truly is.
 

Jrzag42

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The prequels are up there with the original trilogy for me. And this is why I shouldn't be allowed on the internet
 

The Scribbling Man

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^^^^ I've liked your post, @"jrWHAG42" . Not because you believe that the prequels are up there with the OT, but because you know that you shouldn't be allowed on the internet.  ;)
 

Gaith

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Even the MCU itself has acknowledged that Homecoming got its dates wrong:

Look, even Infinity War co-director Joe Russo called the MCU “a very incorrect eight years” in an interview with ScreenRant.

Infinity War kind of sets it straight. There’s a scene where Tony Stark is quipping with Doctor Strange. During their conversation he brings up the attack on New York that happened six years ago. If we operate under the knowledge that The Avengers takes place in 2012, that returns the MCU timeline to its rightful place. Infinity War takes place in 2018, and effectively retconned Homecoming.
 

addiesin

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I believe the sequels are made for people who didn't like the prequels (which have a worse reputation than the originals), and in that regard, they're well made so far. I don't love any Star Wars film personally, but I recognize the significance of the franchise and it's easy to see how big a departure the prequels took from the originals. It's obvious that would make some angry, given the worldwide popularity of the originals. I liked TLJ when I saw it once in the theater. I found it mostly fun and the twists were genuinely surprising to me. But that was also a departure from what is expected from the franchise, and that was always going to anger some people.

Even if it was a bad film, I think the troll-brigade internet hate machine has done far more damage to the franchise than any bad film ever could, seeing agendas everywhere and getting outraged because people online will listen to them if they have the most extreme opinion. If their goal is to make everyone hate talking about Star Wars or to stop more films from being made, it's nearly achieved. Nearly.

You can dislike well made films, you can like poorly made films. In my opinion, the prequels are poorly-made by a director who lost love of the craft and got too involved in the business side, whereas the sequels are well-made by hired directors who are only there to get the films in the can.

I don't love TLJ, and it is not my favorite Star Wars film. If you just don't really like the idea of Luke almost killing Ben in the flashback, I get it. I don't agree (people make mistakes, he died a selfless hero, that was my take) but I get it. If you think it's too long or the space chase was a silly plot device, I get it and also I agree. However, if you hate Rose, Holdo, and Rian Johnson, but don't hate Padme, Mon Mothma, and George Lucas respectively for nearly identical reasons, I don't get it.

In the end I think the franchise is better for having TLJ. I finally don't know what's going to happen in the next Star Wars movie. I haven't been able to say that since I first watched the originals. When the prequels came, we knew where the chess pieces would all land. When TFA came, we knew Disney would likely retread old territory to capture the 'look n feel' of the originals. Then TFA set up certain mystery-box questions, which we figured would be answered in TLJ. So without new questions, all that's left is, what happens next? Or, even more interesting, how does it end? I think either of those questions is more fun than any mystery box answer would have been. That's my take, pretty much unchanged since TLJ released.
 

Possessed

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I think the prequels are definitely more original than the sequels.  However,  the prequels are executed, in my opinion,  horribly with bad direction and a horrendous script with abysmal dialogue that no talented actors could save. The sequels are definitely playing it relatively safe, and aren't very original,  however they are,  in my opinion,  executed infinitely better and are more competent as films.  I know which I would rather spend two hours watching
 

Moe_Syzlak

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Possessed said:
I think the prequels are definitely more original than the sequels.  However,  the prequels are executed, in my opinion,  horribly with bad direction and a horrendous script with abysmal dialogue that no talented actors could save. The sequels are definitely playing it relatively safe, and aren't very original,  however they are,  in my opinion,  executed infinitely better and are more competent as films.  I know which I would rather spend two hours watching
I agree with this. I also think no one would be taking about Star Wars at all if Harrison Ford hadn’t been cast. There’s, of course, other reasons that first film succeeded, but he helped to make it fun. Same with RDJr. and the whole Marvel thing. The prequels and the sequels haven’t had that.
 

Possessed

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Were it not for Ewan McGregor I wouldn't even bother with edits of the prequels. He's not the only good thing about them,  but he's the most interesting to me.
 

Collipso

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i disagree that harrison ford is that important to star wars. while he's pretty iconic as han solo and gave the character a lot of charm, i think that if he was a slightly different character played by a less charismatic actor we'd still be here all the same.

but i definitely agree that RDJ is this important for marvel.
 

Possessed

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Collipso said:
i disagree that harrison ford is that important to star wars. while he's pretty iconic as han solo and gave the character a lot of charm, i think that if he was a slightly different character played by a less charismatic actor we'd still be here all the same.

but i definitely agree that RDJ is this important for marvel.

 Hey that's okay I'm wrong about alot of things too.
 

Moe_Syzlak

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I’m not saying Ford alone was responsible for Star Wars’ success. I’m saying he was a considerable part of the fun of the OT that was lacking in the PT. There were all the poor film making Lucas hallmarks in the original Star Wars as there were in the prequels. We just overlook them because, despite it all, Star Wars still worked.
 

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theforce said:
Hackfraud Media’s “Fake Mr. Plinkettl review of The Last Jedi.

Hilarious review which The real mr plinkett from Red Letter Media should have done. 

Star Wars The Last Straw Part 1

Star Wars The Last Straw Part 2

Because this kind of sh*t is catnip to me, I watched just over an hour of the first part. It's pretty mediocre. There are some good insights, but only a few, and not nearly enough to justify the runtime. For TLJ criticism, I think I'll stick with RLM's splendid Half in the Bag review, and the "Unbridled Rage" review.
 

theforce

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Gaith said:
theforce said:
Hackfraud Media’s “Fake Mr. Plinkettl review of The Last Jedi.

Hilarious review which The real mr plinkett from Red Letter Media should have done. 

Star Wars The Last Straw Part 1

Star Wars The Last Straw Part 2

Because this kind of sh*t is catnip to me, I watched just over an hour of the first part. It's pretty mediocre. There are some good insights, but only a few, and not nearly enough to justify the runtime. For TLJ criticism, I think I'll stick with RLM's splendid Half in the Bag review, and the "Unbridled Rage" review.

Actually, part 2 is way better and more insightful...I found RLM prequel bashing far more insulting and degrading.....to each their own
 

Masirimso17

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I had some ramblings about Wisecrack's video about "What Went Wrong With The Last Jedi". Obviously I disagreed. But this is a complicated issue about a great complicated movie that makes you think like this. But my opinion might slightly change later. I put it in spoiler tags simply because it is long.

You missed something very important about the finale: Kylo Ren at the end does not become the Johnson/Jung balance he seems to offer to Rey. He seems to believe that by tearing down everything from his past he will achieve this perfect balance. But perfect balance in Star Wars is extremely difficult, and Ren definitely does not reach that balance. In fact, he lets the darkness completely consume him, whether he realizes it or not.

In Star Wars, the Dark Side is the corruption of the Force. However, the history of the galaxy far far away shows that this corruption is less of a spectrum and far more of a circle. As seen in the Prequels, extreme light where the dark is surpressed like in Jung's model leads to arrogance. Extreme light, in this way, corrupts itself through the arrogance of the Jedi. All this brings everything back to Darkness, hidden beneath the light. Therefore, prophecy of the Chosen One is definitely true, in that before Anakin, the Force is unbalanced. Not in a sense that the light has surpressed the darkness, but the darkness has creeped in. The shroud of the dark side, as Yoda puts it. The state of the Jedi Order in the Prequels is what led to Palpatine's arrival, and destruction of the Republic and the Jedi Order. Anakin, following the prophecy, must reset everything by destroying the arrogant Jedi, then destroying the completely evil Sith. This happens through all 6 initial Star Wars films.

Following this, what needed to be done was for Luke to bring a synthesis. And that is what was implied at the end of Return of the Jedi: Luke's darkness within does not define him. He is still a Jedi. It was implied that Luke accepted the darkness within him but did not allow himself to completely turn. What The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi implied, however, was that when the light returned, everything returned back to how things were in the Prequels: Suppression of the darkness. That is what happened to Luke: Though he seemed to accept his darkness, he merely surpressed it. He thought the Jedi of the past, romanticized by many, held the truth about how to truly rid one's self of darkness. His new order followed the same flawed principles of the Jedi of the past: Suppression instead of learning how to control it. That is exactly why his darkness crept back to haunt him and ruined everything when he sensed the darkness within Ren. He doesn't know how to control it, he only suppresses it, but obviously, not enough. It backfires, and in turn, the suppressed darkness returns once again, and we're back to how things were in the original trilogy.

BUT, this all does not mean that the past is completely worthless. That threshold of darkness is where Luke was almost about to fall, and Kylo most certainly fell into. Back to arrogance, back to thinking all the answers are within yourself. Kylo Ren represents the rejection of everything, yet falling into the same trap of the system. DJ realizes this, he's inevitably part of the system, belongs to no one and everyone, and he is content with using this to his advantage as much as possible. In fact, this is his own twisted way of balance. Kylo Ren doesn't realize this. He thinks he has reached true balance and yet he has fallen into darkness.

So what does Rey represent? Rey always believed that the Jedi were good. When Luke said otherwise, Rey still didn't give up hope. Rey represents the exact synthesis that the past suppression always couldn't reach. So when Kylo offers freedom from the past shackles, the system, Rey knows this is a trap. She knows that true freedom comes when bringing a synthesis of the strengths of the past and strengths of the future: Accepting the darkness, learning to conform it, and using it for the best.

Here's the video I disagreed with:


In fact the video made me love the movie even more.
 

Moe_Syzlak

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My kids (seven years old) have decided they want to see Episode 9 in the theatre. My only requirement for them was that they watch episodes 7 and 8 so I wouldn’t be answering questions all through the movie. So tonight was Last Jedi time.

I played them my own edit. Now, if you know me you know I’m not an editor. I took a few edits and stitched them together and then made a few slight trims of my own. Some of the edits I used never got Academy approval here. But basically this was an edit that focuses almost exclusively on the Rey/Ben/Luke/Snoke storylines. Gone are the slow speed chase, the Leia spacewalk, the Canto Bight subplot, and a lot of humor I felt didn’t work.

First, my kids loved it. And, to be honest, so did I. I had watched any version in well over a year and I really enjoyed it, partly because my kids were so into it. They were cheering, cuddling up to me when scared, and yelling at the screen. It was great. My wife, who is not a Star Wars fan and who has only seen the movie in the theater with me, said, “that was much better than I remembered.”

Now, the seven year olds didn’t notice any problems, but I did. With the B plot all but eliminated, Finn, Poe, and Leia don’t do much and Rose and Holdo are unnamed supporting characters. That’s fine for Rose except she’ll undoubtedly have a large role in the next movie. For Holdo, since she pilots the light speed assault it kind of comes of out of nowhere. Since we don’t see the bridge assault that sends Leia on her spacewalk, we also don’t see Ackbar’s fate. If someone could create a plausible version of Ackbar subbing for Holdo, I think it could really work. To be clear, I don’t hate Holdo but I don’t think the B storyline is necessary nor very well executed. So that character would just be a casualty of tightening up the film.

Overall, I think the movie’s themes and ideas are excellent. Luke is brave and strong by doing what he couldn’t in Empire. He knows that the Jedi must die and that dogma is not what the Force is about. I hope the new movie doesn’t try to unwrite that.
 

Gaith

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Moe_Syzlak said:
Luke is brave and strong by doing what he couldn’t in Empire. He knows that the Jedi must die and that dogma is not what the Force is about. I hope the new movie doesn’t try to unwrite that.

Er, he literally says with righteous confidence that he will not be the last Jedi by the end.
 

Moe_Syzlak

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Gaith said:
Moe_Syzlak said:
Luke is brave and strong by doing what he couldn’t in Empire. He knows that the Jedi must die and that dogma is not what the Force is about. I hope the new movie doesn’t try to unwrite that.

Er, he literally says with righteous confidence that he will not be the last Jedi by the end.

Yeah I get that. I actually hope the title “Rise of Skywalker” is a rebranding, if you will, of those that are Force sensitive, thereby symbolically eschewing the dogma of the Jedi. But there’s no doubt in my mind that the intent was to have Luke (and Yoda) acknowledge that the dogma of the Jedi needed to end. Whether or not you call those non-Dark side force sensitive people Jedis or not is not the point.

Do you know anyone that says they are spiritual but not religious? ‘Cause I certainly do.

Anyway, the point is that I didn’t like the TLJ, though I didn’t hate it as much as many fans did. Getting an edit that eliminated a lot of my issues with the theatrical version and then having a good deal of time away from the movie left me with a viewing that really helped to clarify that intent of the movie. This is reinforced by the TLJ extra called “Balance of the Force.” I’m left with little doubt that the story Johnson was gong for is something I can totally endorse. The execution, however, was not up to snuff. I feel much the same way with the prequels.
 

Gaith

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Moe_Syzlak said:
there’s no doubt in my mind that the intent was to have Luke (and Yoda) acknowledge that the dogma of the Jedi needed to end.

Sure, but the problem is we never saw to what extent Luke tried to incorporate PT-era dogma into his temple, if at all. And surely not all dogma - such as the general frowning upon mass murder on a planetary scale - is worth discarding? Or are we to assume that Luke drove Kylo to the Dark Side by imposing a vow of celibacy on him? :p
 
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