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Star Wars VIII - The Last Jedi

Zamros

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I actually really liked the choice of putting Snoke in a gold dressing gown, it reflected his hubris. My point was, it's not beyond characters to wear long, impractical robes during situations of battle in the Star Wars universe. Palpatine could fight Yoda just fine in his, Mon Mothma could command the rebel forces just fine in hers, Leia could steal the Death Star plans just fine in hers, there's not a single situation Holdo was in that would *require* her to wear uniform. I think suspension of disbelief applies here.
 

DonKamillo

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Zamros said:
I actually really liked the choice of putting Snoke in a gold dressing gown, it reflected his hubris. My point was, it's not beyond characters to wear long, impractical robes during situations of battle in the Star Wars universe. Palpatine could fight Yoda just fine in his, Mon Mothma could command the rebel forces just fine in hers, there's not a single situation Holdo was in that would *require* her to wear uniform. I think suspension of disbelief applies here.

Well of course you are not going to write a battle or fight sequence for a character if they are dressed in a ball gown. 

Watch her get into the pilot seat and adjust her dress, so it doesn't get stuck:

 

Zamros

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Now this is just nitpicking... There's more to film criticism than cinemasins-esque nonsense that points out shit most people wouldn't notice because they're focused on the shit that actually matters.

It took me 3 replays to notice that slight movement of a dress, because I was more focused on her successfully destroying a fleet of giant spaceships in a jump to faster-than-light travel.
 

DonKamillo

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Zamros said:
Now this is just nitpicking... There's more to film criticism than cinemasins-esque nonsense that points out shit most people wouldn't notice because they're focused on the shit that actually matters.

It took me 3 replays to notice that slight movement of a dress, because I was more focused on her successfully destroying a fleet of giant spaceships in a jump to faster-than-light travel.

Now imagine if she had to run somewhere... the Raddus is a big ship.

Never said her wardrobe is a major point to criticize btw. It's just another (admittedly minor) point in a long long list...
 

Zamros

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Have you ever had to run, while wearing a long dress, before? It ain't hard, I've done it while texting...
 

DonKamillo

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Zamros said:
Have you ever had to run, while wearing a long dress, before? It ain't hard, I've done it while texting...

Touché...
 

Garp

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If we're talking about unbelievable military decisions, does it make sense to have this guy...

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

or this guy...

images


take part in vital military situations? There's nothing shown to suggest that anyone other than their co-pilots understand a word they're saying. What if something had happened to Han or Lando?
 

DonKamillo

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Garp said:
If we're talking about unbelievable military decisions, does it make sense to have this guy...

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

or this guy...

images


take part in vital military situations? There's nothing shown to suggest that...

Sullustans served as pilots throughout the Rebellion and you can spot a bunch scrambling before the Battle of Endor. Nien Nunb, the famed Sullustan pilot that co-piloted the Millennium Falcon during the attack on the second Death Star, was a tried and true hero of the Rebellion. 

Wookiees are incredible fighters, engineers, and diplomats. Chewie is a perfect example of his race, as he combined savagery and finesse in the battle against the Empire.

That's more than enough to assume that they are qualified to handle military situations. Also we are in space...with aliens...were different languages are spoken. If you see a french soldier in a war movie talking french all the time do you automatically assume no one understands him, just because you don't?
 

addiesin

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DonKamillo said:
Sullustans served as pilots throughout the Rebellion and you can spot a bunch scrambling before the Battle of Endor. Nien Nunb, the famed Sullustan pilot that co-piloted the Millennium Falcon during the attack on the second Death Star, was a tried and true hero of the Rebellion. 

Wookiees are incredible fighters, engineers, and diplomats. Chewie is a perfect example of his race, as he combined savagery and finesse in the battle against the Empire.

That's more than enough to assume that they are qualified to handle military situations. Also we are in space...with aliens...were different languages are spoken. If you see a french soldier in a war movie talking french all the time do you automatically assume no one understands him, just because you don't?

He said there's nothing shown in the films to suggest they're good pilots. So to prove him wrong you... quote DenofGeek, where someone has written that, no, they're totally good pilots. 

http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/260668/best-star-wars-alien-species


You appear to be taking this discussion personally (based on your posts today). Rather than google something to copy paste as a clever response, why not stop and think?
 

DonKamillo

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addiesin said:
DonKamillo said:
Sullustans served as pilots throughout the Rebellion and you can spot a bunch scrambling before the Battle of Endor. Nien Nunb, the famed Sullustan pilot that co-piloted the Millennium Falcon during the attack on the second Death Star, was a tried and true hero of the Rebellion. 

Wookiees are incredible fighters, engineers, and diplomats. Chewie is a perfect example of his race, as he combined savagery and finesse in the battle against the Empire.

That's more than enough to assume that they are qualified to handle military situations. Also we are in space...with aliens...were different languages are spoken. If you see a french soldier in a war movie talking french all the time do you automatically assume no one understands him, just because you don't?

He said there's nothing shown in the films to suggest they're good pilots. So to prove him wrong you... quote DenofGeek, where someone has written that, no, they're totally good pilots. 

http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/star-wars/260668/best-star-wars-alien-species

You appear to be taking this discussion personally (based on your posts today). Rather than google something to copy paste as a clever response, why not stop and think?

So what? I didn't put those quotes in cursive for nothing. Not everybody is a human Star Wars encyclopedia.  :D

"where someone has written..." Is that someone not a good enough source for you? 

How about:

Shaggy giants from an arboreal world, the tall and commanding Wookiee species is an impressive sight to even the most jaded spacer. Despite their fearsome and savage countenance, Wookiees are intelligent, sophisticated, loyal and trusting. Loyalty and bravery are near-sacred tenets in Wookiee society. 

https://www.starwars.com/databank/wookiee

A native of Sullust, Nien Nunb was a smuggler who fought for both the Rebel Alliance and the Resistance during his long career. An expert pilot, he served as Lando Calrissian’s co-pilot aboard the Millennium Falcon during the Battle of Endor, flew an X-wing in the raid on Starkiller Base, and survived the First Order’s assault on Crait.

https://www.starwars.com/databank/nien-nunb

"...nothing shown in the films to suggest they're good pilots"

Nien Nunb is seen piloting an X-Wing in the Starkiller Base attack in TFA and Chewie did a pretty good job piloting the Falcon on Crait in TLJ so...yeah...

And what about my posts today makes you think that I take anything of this personally btw?  :)
 

TV's Frink

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Anyone who complains about something a female character wore in a Star Wars movie without mentioning Lucas salivating over Carrie Fisher (slave Leia) or Natalie Portman (half her AOTC outfits) needs to think again.
 

DonKamillo

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TVs Frink said:
Anyone who complains about something a female character wore in a Star Wars movie without mentioning Lucas salivating over Carrie Fisher (slave Leia) or Natalie Portman (half her AOTC outfits) needs to think again.

Didn't know there was a specific rule that makes a complaint about something that didn't make any sense in one movie invalid, if I don't complain about something similar in other movies too. :sleepy:

Also I don't remember Snoke being female...  ;)
 

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People don’t like the Holdo character so they’ll find any excuse to criticize her. Some criticisms are valid, others not so much. I keep coming back to execution. If the execution is  there, people tend not to nitpick the logic. Take the lightspeed jump. Most people thought it was a cool moment, so you don’t hear people say *wait a minute, how did she jump to lightspeed with no fuel!?*  Leia in space didn’t really work; Vader in space (in R1) was cool and nary a nitpick.
 

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Btw I notice the deflection is very strong in this one (thread). 

The motto here seems to be: 
  • "Let's not discuss the information of the argument but how that information was delivered." 
  • If the argument is sound we ignore it, have heard it all before or bring out the "It's just a movie..." line
  • If we perceive the smallest inconsistency or mistake though...oh boy here we go...
IMO that is not a good basis for a passionate/fun/interesting talk.
 

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Moe_Syzlak said:
People don’t like the Holdo character so they’ll find any excuse to criticize her. Some criticisms are valid, others not so much. I keep coming back to execution. If the execution is  there, people tend not to nitpick the logic. Take the lightspeed jump. Most people thought it was a cool moment, so you don’t hear people say *wait a minute, how did she jump to lightspeed with no fuel!?*  Leia in space didn’t really work; Vader in space (in R1) was cool and nary a nitpick.

Then why does it seem that there isn't any agreement of the points that are valid but only general disagreement? 

If I agree with some points and disagree with others I'll point out the ones I agree with and (try to) discuss the ones I don't. If you write a super long post with a lot of different points and the discussion then shifts to one specific/minor point where there's disagreement and the rest of your argument or all your points are declared invalid with a generalized statement because of this or are ignored entirely, it doesn't make for a fun discussion.

For example I agree with you that the execution is an important part in selling a plot point BUT you still have to find a balance between a good/cool execution of a scene and a good/comprehensible reasoning why that scene exists. If I do a cool scene that makes no sense in the context of the narrative or breaks the established personality of a character, it's not gonna be good. If I do a scene that makes sense for the narrative but is shot poorly, it's also not gonna be very good.

In the case of Holdo's sacrifice it was shot in a cool way but I felt nothing in regards to her character dying because she didn't really earn it in regard to her character arc. If I compare that to Qui-Gon Jinn's death in Episode I it's a whole different story. We can connect to him because of his character arc, and therefore we will remember his character, even though TPM had a lot of flaws.
 

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I intend to respond to a lot of what's been posted when I have some free time. I've been meaning to continue but Gaith's post a few pages back was really long and my baby and job need a lot of attention, then as life does, the thread continued. I was enjoying the back and forth, but on the focus of what people think the real genuine problems are in the film (there certainly are some). I also felt that cuddlyninja's post, at least the part I quoted, really did sum up my stance on the whole issue.


What I mean about taking it personally is that we all entered this conversation knowing we'd disagree on stuff, but you seem to be annoyed we don't all agree. But the very thing that makes discussion valuable is differing opinions. 

I think this discussion has helped me understand the reaction better. So again, thanks for participating.
 

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It might be best for the discourse if we all take a moment to recognise arguments which are in bad faith. It's why I can't take nitpicking seriously, they're usually made on bad faith arguments which bring up nothing of value and diminish what can be seen as valid criticism. I'm sure I could nitpick the hell out of The Shawshank Redemption, Citizen Kane or The Holy Mountain if I was looking hard enough, but that wouldn't make what I'm saying valid, it would just make me an arsehole.


"Character X's outfit looks dumb and I hate it" is a bad faith argument that falls apart on the slightest probing. "Character X's actions make no sense in the context of the film" is a good faith argument, which is why people don't get so up-in-arms about it.

I recommend Cosmonaut's video on this subject:

 

Moe_Syzlak

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DonKamillo said:
Moe_Syzlak said:
People don’t like the Holdo character so they’ll find any excuse to criticize her. Some criticisms are valid, others not so much. I keep coming back to execution. If the execution is  there, people tend not to nitpick the logic. Take the lightspeed jump. Most people thought it was a cool moment, so you don’t hear people say *wait a minute, how did she jump to lightspeed with no fuel!?*  Leia in space didn’t really work; Vader in space (in R1) was cool and nary a nitpick.

Then why does it seem that there isn't any agreement of the points that are valid but only general disagreement? 

If I agree with some points and disagree with others I'll point out the ones I agree with and (try to) discuss the ones I don't. If you write a super long post with a lot of different points and the discussion then shifts to one specific/minor point where there's disagreement and the rest of your argument or all your points are declared invalid with a generalized statement because of this or are ignored entirely, it doesn't make for a fun discussion.

For example I agree with you that the execution is an important part in selling a plot point BUT you still have to find a balance between a good/cool execution of a scene and a good/comprehensible reasoning why that scene exists. If I do a cool scene that makes no sense in the context of the narrative or breaks the established personality of a character, it's not gonna be good. If I do a scene that makes sense for the narrative but is shot poorly, it's also not gonna be very good.

In the case of Holdo's sacrifice it was shot in a cool way but I felt nothing in regards to her character dying because she didn't really earn it in regard to her character arc. If I compare that to Qui-Gon Jinn's death in Episode I it's a whole different story. We can connect to him because of his character arc, and therefore we will remember his character, even though TPM had a lot of flaws.

I didn’t feel much emotion for the Holdo character either. But QGJ’s death didn’t do anything for me either (and since my preferred edit of the prequels omits his character entirely I do sometimes forget he exists). Neither did Han Solo’s death in TFA. I’ve said before that a droid’s death in Rogue One carried more emotional weight for me than the death of one of my favorite characters of all time (Solo). My point was merely that some things didn’t work for you (many things didn’t work for me either), but this movie is polarizing exactly because those things did work for others. Other people are able to look past logical inconsistencies because they liked what they saw on screen. The OT is filled with inconsistencies that no one really cares about because they are universally liked (within Star Wars fandom). Talk to someone who doesn’t like Star Wars and they will gladly point them out. You’re not wrong; you’re just beating a dead horse because the people who aren’t bothered by those things aren’t wrong either.
 

Zamros

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If I compare that to Qui-Gon Jinn's death in Episode I it's a whole different story. We can connect to him because of his character arc, and therefore we will remember his character, even though TPM had a lot of flaws.

What character arc? Not a single character received any development in that movie.
 

DonKamillo

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Zamros said:
If I compare that to Qui-Gon Jinn's death in Episode I it's a whole different story. We can connect to him because of his character arc, and therefore we will remember his character, even though TPM had a lot of flaws.

What character arc? Not a single character received any development in that movie.

Kenobi: I have a bad feeling about this...
QGJ: Really? I don’t sense anything.
Kenobi: It’s not about the mission, Master. Something elsewhere...elusive...
QGJ: Don’t center on your anxieties, Obi-Wan. Keep your concentration here and now, where it belongs.
Kenobi: But Master Yoda says I should be mindful of the future...
QGJ: Be mindful of the living Force, young Padawan.

Not only does this first short exchange between QGJ, the Jedi Master who follows the Force instead of the Jedi Council and Kenobi who tries to be the perfect Jedi subvert our expectations by disagreeing with Kenobi and even Yoda himself, two fan favorites from the OT, it also tells the viewer more about their character than the entirety of TLJ does about Holdo.
 
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