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Star Wars VIII - The Last Jedi

DonKamillo

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asterixsmeagol said:
I think I've said this before, but I don't understand the complaint that an Admiral to a Commander. There's no reason that a high ranking officer would explain all the details of a tactical maneuver like this retreat to every subordinate. It ought to be on a need-to-know basis.

I'll let a military officer answer this apparently legitimate argument people make to defend Holdo's actions:

"In the real military, clearence level is only loosely correlated to rank, in that there is a higher clearence necessary for the officer ranks, but an E-1 can theoretically be read into the highest levels clearence.

More importantly and relevantly, everyone on a particular mission will be briefed on aspects of the mission relevant to them, and in a combat situation, no commander worth a damn is going to deliberately keep his subordinates in the dark about their objectives.

As a matter of general doctrine, you want everyone in your command knowing what the objective is so that when they are in an emergency they don't accidentally mess up the plan as they react without orders."
 

thecuddlyninja

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DonKamillo said:
asterixsmeagol said:
I think I've said this before, but I don't understand the complaint that an Admiral to a Commander. There's no reason that a high ranking officer would explain all the details of a tactical maneuver like this retreat to every subordinate. It ought to be on a need-to-know basis.

I'll let a military officer answer this apparently legitimate argument people make to defend Holdo's actions:

"In the real military, clearence level is only loosely correlated to rank, in that there is a higher clearence necessary for the officer ranks, but an E-1 can theoretically be read into the highest levels clearence.

More importantly and relevantly, everyone on a particular mission will be briefed on aspects of the mission relevant to them, and in a combat situation, no commander worth a damn is going to deliberately keep his subordinates in the dark about their objectives.

As a matter of general doctrine, you want everyone in your command knowing what the objective is so that when they are in an emergency they don't accidentally mess up the plan as they react without orders."

^ No. Clearance level relates to classified materials. So yes, there can be some that doesn't correlate to rank, meaning an E-4 with an intelligence MOS can have higher clearance than an O-3 elsewhere.

However, in the same unit on the same mission, the information ABSOLUTELY flows by rank, period. The officers have the whole plan, they communicate the bits they need to their platoon leaders, who communicate the smaller bits they need to know to the squad leaders. I speak from four years in the Marine Corps infantry. I don't know who you are quoting but an officer saying an E-1 can have the highest security clearance is pretty much nonsense. Most everybody is an E-2 by the time they finish boot camp, and then the intelligence folks have another 2 years of "language" school. They're all NCOs (E-4 and above) by the time they even get to their actual jobs. I went in with a good friend (I went grunt, he went counterintelligence) and that's definitely how it works in the USMC. He was way smarter than me. We got out and he got a six figure job with the NSA while I had the super valuable civilian skill of being able to shoot rockets.
 

TV's Frink

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TVs Frink said:
asterixsmeagol said:
I think I've said this before

I think every point about this movie, pro or con, has been said before.  :p

Even better is how the same arguments I've seen elsewhere (or even here) keep getting trotted out, such as the one where a "real military officer" tells us what's what.
 

thecuddlyninja

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TVs Frink said:
TVs Frink said:
asterixsmeagol said:
I think I've said this before

I think every point about this movie, pro or con, has been said before.  :p

Even better is how the same arguments I've seen elsewhere (or even here) keep getting trotted out, such as the one where a "real military officer" tells us what's what.

This. It's always the same version of the real military officer except it conflates classified material with mission briefings, something a real officer would never do.

Again, this is a space fantasy movie but if people are gonna invoke our military to criticize that plot point then I have to use our military to explain that it makes perfect sense.

Why don't people just admit that they DISLIKE Holdo doing that to Poe because he's an awesome, likeable character? I would understand that completely. We've followed him for a whole movie so we know him better and are rooting for him. The subversion is that he's not actually ready to do what's best. We saw it with the Dreadnought but Holdo makes this really clear (at least for me). It's a little unnerving, realizing that a thing you cheered for in the beginning, the kick ass hero kicking ass, wasn't the best move. Leia even says it straight after the opening battle. But to frame the complaint as being that the military wouldn't work that way is absurd. A plot point doesn't have to make no sense or be bad writing in order for a viewer to dislike it.
 

addiesin

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thecuddlyninja said:
A plot point doesn't have to make no sense or be bad writing in order for a viewer to dislike it.

Oh my god why do I even post when you come in here and consolidate everything I want to say/wish I said into a single sentence?

You ruin my life!

tommy-wiseau-the-room-star-wars-the-force-awakens-mashup-530x292.jpg



But seriously, quoted for truth.
 

Moe_Syzlak

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U
addiesin said:
thecuddlyninja said:
A plot point doesn't have to make no sense or be bad writing in order for a viewer to dislike it.

Oh my god why do I even post when you come in here and consolidate everything I want to say/wish I said into a single sentence?

You ruin my life!

tommy-wiseau-the-room-star-wars-the-force-awakens-mashup-530x292.jpg



But seriously, quoted for truth.

The same could said for liking it though. You can like something despite illogical or inconsistent plot elements and poor writing.  In truth, I think we have two sides that are polarized and are digging their heels in to the extremes. The truth is the movie isn’t a masterpiece or he worst thing put to film. It’s an okay space adventure.
 

thecuddlyninja

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Moe_Syzlak said:
The same could said for liking it though. You can like something despite illogical or inconsistent plot elements and poor writing.  In truth, I think we have two sides that are polarized and are digging their heels in to the extremes. The truth is the movie isn’t a masterpiece or he worst thing put to film. It’s an okay space adventure.

I very much agree in general, which is why I have stayed out of this thread for the most part. However, on the point of "the admiral not telling her subordinate the plan because the real life military doesn't work this way" that is objectively wrong, and the only point I wished to make. I am not trying to get anybody to like it nor did I give my reasons for liking it. I'm just saying that you can dislike something which makes logical sense, which is what's happening here. Your pointing out that the hypothetical opposite happens all the time is very true, it just doesn't apply to Holdo/Finn/the plan with the context of real military information structure. Also, the truth is 'The Last Jedi' can be a masterpiece, the worst thing put to film, and everything in between for different people, art is subjective. That doesn't have anything to do with the point about military subordinate logic.

Also, thanks Addie! Pretty sure I butchered the syntax but as long as it made sense then I'm sure my English teacher will forgive the double negative.
 

addiesin

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Moe_Syzlak said:
The truth is the movie isn’t a masterpiece or he worst thing put to film. It’s an okay space adventure.

Totally agree. I don't love the movie, I like it. I just really think a lot of the hate is unfounded. I know this is beating the deadest horse but after the prequels, everything else in the franchise looks a little more like gold by comparison to me, and I am surprised that general positive feeling of "at least it ain't the prequels" isn't more widespread.
 

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thecuddlyninja said:
I very much agree in general, which is why I have stayed out of this thread for the most part. However, on the point of "the admiral not telling her subordinate the plan because the real life military doesn't work this way" that is objectively wrong, and the only point I wished to make.

I still don't think that saying "from a military point of view this is correct" excuses Holdo's schizophrenic behaviour. Since nobody picked up the other points I made, I'm out for today.

Gonna leave you with an interesting article written by someone about Holdo. That someone is a police officer, former Marine, retired National Guard soldier (with over 25 years of military service), a combat veteran of Iraq and Afghanistan, who also served 18 months as a United Nations police officer in Kosovo and also happens to be a Star Wars fan. I think he qualifies to talk about the military aspect more than I do...  ;)

https://chrishernandezauthor.com/20...o-wasnt-a-feminist-she-was-just-a-bad-leader/
 

TV's Frink

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Lol the exact article I assumed you were talking about.  Have seen it so many times since it was posted (last year!).  Don't care.
 

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I liked the character development Poe went through, in this movie. It was necessary for his character to experience that growth. The problem was that they had to manufacture a way to make him have that development, which meant Admiral Holdo had to hide her plan from everyone for no reason. If there had been a subplot about a First Order person infiltrating the Rebellion, that might have made sense, as it would have sown an atmosphere of distrust between Holdo and Poe. Then I might have accepted that she was hiding her plan, and their character development wouldn't have suffered. Finn and Rose's mission is fine, at the beginning, but drags on way too long for something that's mainly serving as necessary motivation for Poe's character development. Instead it comes off less "Cool down, hot shot" and more "Be quiet and respect my authority"

Also Rian Johnson ruined my headcanon FinnxPoe ship, therefore I must hate him for eternity.
 

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thecuddlyninja said:
Why don't people just admit that they DISLIKE Holdo doing that to Poe because he's an awesome, likeable character?

Why, I believe I did just that yesterday.  ;)  Holdo was entirely within her rights not to tell Poe there even was a plan, but that isn't much fun for us in the audience. As a veteran who never served in any kind of combat situation, I can't speak to the military realism at play, but it does occur to me that since we're also told several people have tried to desert in escape pods before Finn and Rose meet, it seems as though there's a dangerous amount of discontent amongst the Resistance rank and file, so the compassionate course for Holdo would probably be to inform the whole crew that there's a viable plan actively being worked on. Instead, she says this:

"There are four hundred of us...on three ships. We're the very last of the Resistance, but we're not alone. In every corner of the galaxy... the downtrodden and oppressed know our symbol...and they put their hope in it. We are the spark that will ignite the fire that will restore the Republic. That spark...this Resistance, must survive. That is our mission."

Hardly a rousing call to arms, any way one cuts it.
 

DonKamillo

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Gaith said:
thecuddlyninja said:
Why don't people just admit that they DISLIKE Holdo doing that to Poe because he's an awesome, likeable character?

Why, I believe I did just that yesterday.  ;)  Holdo was entirely within her rights not to tell Poe there even was a plan, but that isn't much fun for us in the audience. As a veteran who never served in any kind of combat situation, I can't speak to the military realism at play, but it does occur to me that since we're also told several people have tried to desert in escape pods before Finn and Rose meet, it seems as though there's a dangerous amount of discontent amongst the Resistance rank and file, so the compassionate course for Holdo would probably be to inform the whole crew that there's a viable plan actively being worked on. Instead, she says this:

"There are four hundred of us...on three ships. We're the very last of the Resistance, but we're not alone. In every corner of the galaxy... the downtrodden and oppressed know our symbol...and they put their hope in it. We are the spark that will ignite the fire that will restore the Republic. That spark...this Resistance, must survive. That is our mission."

Hardly a rousing call to arms, any way one cuts it.

Saying all this while wearing a ball gown alienates her even further from the other (uniformed) resistance fighters. 

If Johnson wanted to use that character so bad, he could have put her on Canto Bight (she would have fit right in with her dress and hairdo). Imagine they see the Codebreaker standing at the tables with Holdo at his side looking like a companion (just replace Lovey with her) and then Johnson pulls the old bait-and-switch and it turns out that she is the real Master Codebreaker. It would probably spawn some steamy Maz-Holdo fanfics but hey... expectations would be subverted ;)
 

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It's a freaking Star Wars film, complain about the character all you want, but complaining about the character's wardrobe is extremely facetious. (The same applies to the colour of her hair, which people hate for no justified reason)
 

DonKamillo

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Zamros said:
It's a freaking Star Wars film, complain about the character all you want, but complaining about the character's wardrobe is extremely facetious. (The same applies to the colour of her hair, which people hate for no justified reason)

Costume designer Michael Kaplan:
"Rian wanted to see her body language and wear something that was close-fitting and yet elegant. I thought we were just going to put her in a uniform, but Rian said, 'No, I want her in a gown.' So, I looked back to the beautiful clothes that Madame Grès did in the '30s and '40s and used this beautiful jersey fabric in this crazy color, which I think is called puce. There's something a little Grecian about it and she was very happy. I think she looks very beautiful."

In the novel "Leia, Princess of Alderaan" it was revealed, that Vice Admiral Holdo is kind of an odd-ball and the choice to wear a dress like that to battle may have been in line with her character but seeing as we neither get any backstory for her nor a reasoning for her motivations and the decisions she makes, the choice of wearing a ball gown in a crisis like that (rebel base destroyed, lots of rebels and resistance leadership killed, Leia in a coma etc.) only adds to her ambiguous and confusing character.

If Abrams says "I want Lando facing Kylo in a clown suit" and does not elaborate on that decision within the movie, than it's gonna stand out. 

Also "It's a freaking Star Wars film" is a tiresome knockout argument which doesn't really add to the discussion, which I'm having the faint suspicion nobody's interested in anyway...  :sleepy:
 

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Right, because Rebellion leaders have never worn long flowing dresses during situations of crisis...

Mothmaleadingbriefing.png


5968c14368989b765bd018146df95e1f.jpg


The-Last-Jedi-Leia-970x545.jpg


open-uri20150608-27674-wiquhr_3528045b.jpeg
 

DonKamillo

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Zamros said:
Right, because Rebellion leaders have never worn long flowing dresses during situations of crisis...

Mothmaleadingbriefing.png

Politician...

Zamros said:

Princess...

who knew how to dress for battle in previous movies:

145230.jpg


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145231.jpg


Zamros said:

Politician / Sith Lord (prefers others to do the fighting for him)...

145228.jpg


Military leader...  :D
 

DonKamillo

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Bonus:

145234.png


Kaplan: So what should Snoke wear... we could go with a menacing black...
Johnson: No, I want him in a golden bath robe.
Kaplan: ...
           ... I see what I can do...
 
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