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Star Wars VIII - The Last Jedi

Masirimso17

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DonKamillo said:
He did the opposite... Abrams wrote drafts for episode 8 and 9 outlining where things could go for the main characters but Johnson scrapped those and started from scratch

No offense, but can I ask for a source for this?
 

The Scribbling Man

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Masirimso17 said:
No offense, but can I ask for a source for this?

Google is your friend:

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-8-9-jj-abrams-script/

It also says that, apparently, [font=helvetica, verdana, arial, sans-serif]"...[/font]Abrams did like Johnson's pitch and wanted to direct The Last Jedi himself after reading the final script."
 

DonKamillo

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The Scribbling Man said:
Masirimso17 said:
No offense, but can I ask for a source for this?

Google is your friend:

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-8-9-jj-abrams-script/

It also says that, apparently, [font=helvetica, verdana, arial, sans-serif]"...[/font]Abrams did like Johnson's pitch and wanted to direct The Last Jedi himself after reading the final script."

Yeah their meeting probably went something like this:

Johnson: J.J. remember how emotional your ending was in Episode VII?
Abrams: Yeah of course, I still remember the last lines I wrote...

....Luke Skywalker
Older now, white hair, bearded. He looks at Rey. A kindness
in his eyes, but there's something tortured, too. He doesn't
need to ask her who she is, or what she is doing here. His
look says it all.
In response, Rey pulls something from the pack.
LUKE'S LIGHTSABER.
And she holds it out to him. An offer. A plea. The galaxy's
only hope.
HOLD ON LUKE SKYWALKER'S INCREDIBLE FACE, amazed and
conflicted at what he sees, as our MUSIC BUILDS, the promise
of an adventure, just beginning...

...I remember tearing up a little while writing this part.

Johnson: Yeah what an ending... So I have the script for Ep VIII here. Want to know how that scene continues?
Abrams: What a question...of course I do... *starts reading* 
...
...so he just throws it away?
Johnson: Right over his shoulder!
Abrams: Okay...
Johnson: What do you think?
Abrams: ...I love it!
 

Masirimso17

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The Scribbling Man said:
Google is your friend:

https://screenrant.com/star-wars-8-9-jj-abrams-script/

It also says that, apparently, [font=helvetica, verdana, arial, sans-serif]"...[/font]Abrams did like Johnson's pitch and wanted to direct The Last Jedi himself after reading the final script."


Awesome. Directors should absolutely go with their visions instead of a mandate, which would feel less genuine. I also remember the second part from a few years ago.

Can't wait for Episode IX, it's going to be awesome!
 

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I respect Willems and watched with an open mind, but fundamentally disagreed with him that TFA was a solid foundation for the Sequel Trilogy/post-RotJ direction for the saga. Nor do I agree with his implicit denial (despite acknowledging that TFA is an ANH rehash) that TLJ is in large part a recycling of ESB, a point made by RLM's Plinkett review.
 

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Mostly disagree with Willems arguments, especially his knockout-argument. 

"This is a movie about space wizards intended for children" doesn't mean you can throw logic out the window. There have to be rules that are followed, otherwise a movie becomes a garbled mess. Contradicting those rules in incomprehensible ways is not a good way to subvert expectations or extend an already existing universe.

I liked the part about the Luke/Leia hologram though. Never thought about that :)
 

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DonKamillo said:
"This is a movie about space wizards intended for children" doesn't mean you can throw logic out the window.

No, but traditionally people who enjoy films aren't expected to justify their enjoyment. Usually it's the other way around. If you feel negatively, the expectation is that you explain what exactly from the film was able to get under your skin.

Personally I'd like to have a conversation with someone who doesn't like this film, and I'd like them to describe what they think the missteps were, without using the word "bad" or any synonym or loophole ("terrible" "horrible" "awful" "worst" "not good" "if only it was better", etc) with specific examples. 
Literally every reasoning I've heard has boiled down to "I didn't like things they chose to do so it was a bad movie".
That's never gonna happen though. As I said before, talking about this movie is difficult. People can't seem to put their emotions down. They seem to just want to throw logic out the window.  ;)
 

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addiesin said:
DonKamillo said:
"This is a movie about space wizards intended for children" doesn't mean you can throw logic out the window.

No, but traditionally people who enjoy films aren't expected to justify their enjoyment. Usually it's the other way around. If you feel negatively, the expectation is that you explain what exactly from the film was able to get under your skin.

Personally I'd like to have a conversation with someone who doesn't like this film, and I'd like them to describe what they think the missteps were, without using the word "bad" or any synonym or loophole ("terrible" "horrible" "awful" "worst" "not good" "if only it was better", etc) with specific examples. 
Literally every reasoning I've heard has boiled down to "I didn't like things they chose to do so it was a bad movie".
That's never gonna happen though. As I said before, talking about this movie is difficult. People can't seem to put their emotions down. They seem to just want to throw logic out the window.  ;)

I think it would be counter-productive if I just start listing everything I didn't like so let's start with the first misstep I can think of.

Leia's resurrection - so much wrong with this scene:
  1. There is no sign from past movies (TFA included) or even one mention in this movie of her having that kind of power. It seems Rian Johnson put this in to "subvert our expectations". If he didn't want Leia to die, and still have a dramatic moment between her and Kylo, he could've done it some other less ridiculous way. 
  2. After she uses that power to float through space past all the wreckage, they just open a hatch for her, we see a bit of smoke and that's it. Cut to her being carried away so no one notices that everybody should have been sucked out into space the moment that hatch opened.
  3. She just pulled off an amazing feat yet after it happened nobody speaks to her about or mentions that incident in any way. Apparently this kind of thing happens everyday.
  4. Having that kind of power one would think that she could have lifted those rocks for the rebels on Crait or used it in any other way to help them, yet it seems that power has an on/off switch and only functions when the plot needs it.
  5. Why did she survive that incident in the first place if Johnson never uses her again in a meaningful way? She just stands on the side line watching stuff happen. She even herself states "What are you looking at me for?...Follow him" 
    The list goes on...
No matter how you look at that scene being from a narrative, logical or technical point of view, it doesn't make any sense...thus it's a misstep. Do you disagree?
 

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another incident of jedi only using their powers once is also seen in Episode one when obi wan and qui gon are cutting through the command door and the destroyers turn up. they both exhibited super speed and later in the movie when obi wan and qui gon are running through the multiple doors to catch darth maul they cannot run past normal speed but seconds before they were just jumping super heights,maybe it is an ability that can only be switched on in life or death situations.
 

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DonKamillo said:
Do you disagree?

With respect, I do. 

First, you have to die to be resurrected. She saved herself "in the nick of time". I find this to be convenient to the plot, but not story-breaking. Movies have convenient timing. It is what it is. I don't want to get stuck on syntax, though. Moving on to the response.

1. Leia's force sensitivity has been established. "You have that power too." "There is another." Telepathic communication in ESB. Etc. To me, this isn't a problem with the film. It's an expansion of the established character.

2. The science in this franchise has never been accurate. Maybe there's an invisible force field. Maybe immediately after she entered, the walls had some emergency airlock plating. Maybe the force re-pressurized the chamber. I don't understand every environment and piece of background tech, nor do I think it's important to the story. To me, this isn't a problem with the film, it's just information we're not given. Similar to how the bombers function. I don't know, don't care, but I get what they want me to get immediately because of the visual shorthand.

3. Maybe conversation happens offscreen, but if it were included it would drag the pace down, and this is already the longest film in the series. Either way, I think the tone of the scene was intended to be conveyed through music rather than dialogue. This isn't a problem with the film, it's just something else we don't see.

4. To me her usage of the force seemed far more like a survival instinct, similar to a mother getting a rush of adrenaline and lifting a vehicle that fell on their offspring. She was never trained, so intentionally using the force appears to be out of the question. The lack of her using more powers later, to me, isn't a problem with the film, nor is it even a part of the film. It's just how you would have done it. 

5. I believe the last conversation between Leia and Luke was meaningful, and I think the pep talk with Rey was essential for Rey's character, because before speaking with Leia she thought her failure was worthless. I'm sorry you don't see it the same way. 

No matter how you look at that scene being from a narrative, logical or technical point of view, it doesn't make any sense...

This (just the quote, not your whole post) is a broad generalization and reads as though you can't imagine someone having a different opinion. It is a popular stance to take on forums and comment sections, and it is exactly the kind of critique that makes genuine discussion of this film difficult to impossible. 

Again, I'm not going to change your or anyone's opinion of the film. I don't want to pointlessly antagonize. But I'd like to try to understand more, and for others to think about how they feel and why. I think for many, expectations were not met, and for those people, it's easier to attribute this to the film than to life in general. I think this has created sort of the opposite of nostalgia-goggles, but I'm not sure what to call it. Outrage-glasses?

Thanks for engaging in the exercise.
 

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addiesin said:
DonKamillo said:
Do you disagree?

With respect, I do. 

First, you have to die to be resurrected. She saved herself "in the nick of time". I find this to be convenient to the plot, but not story-breaking. Movies have convenient timing. It is what it is. I don't want to get stuck on syntax, though. Moving on to the response.

1. Leia's force sensitivity has been established. "You have that power too." "There is another." Telepathic communication in ESB. Etc. To me, this isn't a problem with the film. It's an expansion of the established character.

2. The science in this franchise has never been accurate. Maybe there's an invisible force field. Maybe immediately after she entered, the walls had some emergency airlock plating. Maybe the force re-pressurized the chamber. I don't understand every environment and piece of background tech, nor do I think it's important to the story. To me, this isn't a problem with the film, it's just information we're not given. Similar to how the bombers function. I don't know, don't care, but I get what they want me to get immediately because of the visual shorthand.

3. Maybe conversation happens offscreen, but if it were included it would drag the pace down, and this is already the longest film in the series. Either way, I think the tone of the scene was intended to be conveyed through music rather than dialogue. This isn't a problem with the film, it's just something else we don't see.

4. To me her usage of the force seemed far more like a survival instinct, similar to a mother getting a rush of adrenaline and lifting a vehicle that fell on their offspring. She was never trained, so intentionally using the force appears to be out of the question. The lack of her using more powers later, to me, isn't a problem with the film, nor is it even a part of the film. It's just how you would have done it. 

5. I believe the last conversation between Leia and Luke was meaningful, and I think the pep talk with Rey was essential for Rey's character, because before speaking with Leia she thought her failure was worthless. I'm sorry you don't see it the same way. 

No matter how you look at that scene being from a narrative, logical or technical point of view, it doesn't make any sense...

This (just the quote, not your whole post) is a broad generalization and reads as though you can't imagine someone having a different opinion. It is a popular stance to take on forums and comment sections, and it is exactly the kind of critique that makes genuine discussion of this film difficult to impossible. 

Again, I'm not going to change your or anyone's opinion of the film. I don't want to pointlessly antagonize. But I'd like to try to understand more, and for others to think about how they feel and why. I think for many, expectations were not met, and for those people, it's easier to attribute this to the film than to life in general. I think this has created sort of the opposite of nostalgia-goggles, but I'm not sure what to call it. Outrage-glasses?

But see what you do is what a lot of the hardcore fans are doing... instead of explaining what I call plot holes with elements that happen in the movie, you fill them with your own thought out explanations that all could have happened off screen to make what we see work somehow. If I as a viewer have to constantly ask myself why a character is doing something, then the person in charge of the narrative is not doing a very good job. In essence you are doing the work for Johnson. 

On to the next one...

A simple question: Why did Luke leave a map behind, that leads to his exact location if he himself says something like:
  • "How did you find me?" 
  • "You think that I came to the most unfindable place in the galaxy for no reason at all?" 
  • "I came to this island to die."
And Bonus question: Who uses the word "unfindable"... ? :)
 

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DonKamillo said:
But see what you do is what a lot of the hardcore fans are doing... instead of explaining what I call plot holes with elements that happen in the movie, you fill them with your own thought out explanations that all could have happened off screen to make what we see work somehow. If I as a viewer have to constantly ask myself why a character is doing something, then the person in charge of the narrative is not doing a very good job. In essence you are doing the work for Johnson. 

Please don't mistake my responses for attacks. While I am playing devil's advocate to some degree, I have no ill will toward you as a person. 

I am not personally filling plot holes, as I have no desire to thumb through the background details to attempt to prove one or another. The holes you brought up simply have, in my opinion, multiple easy and plausible conclusions to come to that would satisfy me without having to see them in the film. I was giving examples to be thorough, but the point is the scene with Leia using the force:
  1. Was set up in earlier movies (provable)
  2. Is not beholden to real world science (provable)
  3. Was not discussed onscreen (but didn't need to be Imo)
  4. Was not voluntary but instinctive (Imo)
  5. And allowed Leia to contribute to the third act of the film in dialogue (provable)
Disclaimer: none of the above means you have to like the scene



On to the next one...

A simple question: Why did Luke leave a map behind, that leads to his exact location if he himself says something like:
  • "How did you find me?" 
  • "You think that I came to the most unfindable place in the galaxy for no reason at all?" 
  • "I came to this island to die."

That's a good question. I do think this is answered in subtext, though it's admittedly murky.

In TLJ, Luke doesn't want to help and R2 convinces him to try. All because R2 wanted Luke Skywalker back.
Imo, he didn't want anyone to find the map. R2 did. But R2 was out of commission until that silly moment in TFA when he woke up. Just speculation on my part, but supported by content in the film. Still a good question. It shows the seams of the movie making machine a little bit. 

And Bonus question: Who uses the word "unfindable"... ? :)
Idk, I don't write this stuff, lol.
 

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Personally, the whole scene would have worked if it just showed Kylo using the Force and making pushing Leia back to the ship.  It would have kept Leia alive, but also shown that there was still good in him which would strengthen Rey's efforts later in the film.  I don't hate the scene as shown in the film, but it could have been so much better with a simple insert shot or two.
 

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Hymie said:
Personally, the whole scene would have worked if it just showed Kylo using the Force and making pushing Leia back to the ship.  It would have kept Leia alive, but also shown that there was still good in him which would strengthen Rey's efforts later in the film.  I don't hate the scene as shown in the film, but it could have been so much better with a simple insert shot or two.

I agree, most people probably would have been happier with that. In fact I think I suggested doing something like that as a fanedit idea a few dozen pages back in this thread. I don't know if I would have liked it better, personally, but I agree it would have been pretty cool.

I think the biggest problem with the scene is as some have stated, it doesn't "look cool". I think it looks like Carrie Fisher on wires in front of a green screen, with "frost" makeup on her face. It's tough, because they could have done a cgi double to make it look a little more dynamic. However, I think they firmly chose to do as little cgi replacement of Fisher as possible (maybe none) after she passed. So they went the practical route (I think) and it has a certain look to it.
 

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addiesin said:
I think the biggest problem with the scene is as some have stated, it doesn't "look cool". I think it looks like Carrie Fisher on wires in front of a green screen, with "frost" makeup on her face. It's tough, because they could have done a cgi double to make it look a little more dynamic. However, I think they firmly chose to do as little cgi replacement of Fisher as possible (maybe none) after she passed. So they went the practical route (I think) and it has a certain look to it.

Yeah I agree with that. As with a lot of the prequels, it’s not the overall—or general—idea of it, it’s the execution. It just seemed silly. A muppet concentrating and levitating a space ship could’ve been silly too, but somehow it’s one of my favorite of any Star Wars scenes. It’s about execution. 

Further, the fake-out death, given the real life circumstances, seemed in poor taste to me. I know the scene was in the can by the time Carrie died, but it’s a change I would’ve made, even at a very late date.
 

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addiesin said:
Personally I'd like to have a conversation with someone who doesn't like this film, and I'd like them to describe what they think the missteps were, without using the word "bad" or any synonym or loophole ("terrible" "horrible" "awful" "worst" "not good" "if only it was better", etc) with specific examples. 

1) I don't like the fact that the New Republic was basically written out of the picture just so TLJ could recycle lots of ESB beats. Yes, losing the Hosnian system should be devastating, but it should also have prompted a massive cavalry rescue for our forces. Instead, no one comes to the aid of General Leia, who was instrumental in destroying three Death Stars. Not much of a leader, then, is she?! :-/ I wish the movie had had a much more original story.

2) At no point in either Sequel Trilogy movie did Finn act like someone who was so brainwashed and inhumanely treated since birth he never even privately came up with a name for himself. He should be overwhelmed and utterly confused by his new surroundings; instead, he wisecracks, takes everything in stride, and parks his spaceship wherever he pleases (which is not how a lifelong grunt should think). Neither he nor Rose have much of a sense of urgency on their quest, which drastically lessens the overall story tension.

3) Indeed, the whole Canto Bight subplot drastically lessened the tension of the slow starship chase. Even if we assume that Maz just happened to know a code breaker in the area, and all the many other plot conveniences in this story thread, and even if we assume the whole Resistance couldn't have escaped that way without being noticed, it felt like Johnson giving Finn something to do because he was a major character last time, at the expense of the main plot. Also, the whole "infiltrate an Imperial ship/base" has been done in ANH, RotJ, TFA, Rogue One, and countless episodes of Rebels - it's one of Star Wars' biggest cliches, and one I've grown so, so very bored by.

4) I don't like the fact that, two movies in, I still don't know what attracted Ben Solo to the Dark Side in the first place, except maybe genetics. It feels as though the writers want him to be a complex character, which is how Driver portrays him, but they haven't done any of the work to make him one. (No, him wanting Rey to be his girlfriend, at the cost of abandoning her new friends and entire moral fabric, doesn't in of itself make him complex.)

5) I get that the whole Poe mutiny plot illustrates the movie's theme of well-intentioned failure, but it largely robs him of his swashbuckling charm, and Holdo, while not in the wrong, per se, doesn't endear herself to the audience by being so short with such a charismatic character. This whole plot thread just isn't fun, and Star Wars should be fun first and foremost. And I get that they intended to give Leia a big spotlight in the third movie, but she was really darn near wasted in these two.

6) I found the movie dull and overlong. A suspenseful starship chase flick, mixed with a bit of broken hero/redemption story for Luke, should not be roughly half an hour longer than Casablanca - IMHO.

7) Lots of little details felt off to me. I think that Luke, as a Jedi Master (even a fallen one), should be a vegetarian. I don't know why someone as young and unbalanced as Hux should be such a prominent FO leader. I spent the whole red guard fight wondering who those guys were, and why they bothered to fight Kylo instead of pledging their loyalty to him instead of trying to avenge their dead boss, so I couldn't even enjoy that sequence. Rose's whole maneuver of ramming into Finn's craft to save his life, while the entire FO battalion just watches them kiss instead of easily destroying them... just, no. Also, as RLM points out, the utter lack of grieving from the survivors at the end. "We have all we need," says Leia cheerfully, just witnessing the loss of almost all her friends. I get that she's an optimist and all, but still, Huh?
 

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I think the Poe/Holdo storyline was the biggest misstep for me. Watching it for the first time it was intriguing but after the reveal I was mentally banging my head against a wall.

Why would she hide her plan from Poe? He is according to Kylo the best pilot of the resistance, he basically blew up the Mega Death Planet on his own, he helped destroy a Dreadnought, which apparently is a fleet killer and is a resistance hero. Even after they lost so many people and he notices her fueling up the transport ships, she doesn't tell him. By then everybody can see the planet Crait looking out the window. So why still keep it a secret? Because he's hot-headed? 

It was so blatantly obvious they needed a reason to kick off that Finn/Rose side quest. So they made Holdo look like the bad guy only to have her say "He's such a troublemaker, I like him" to an unconscious Poe later laughing with Leia about it. It's not like that whole red herring cost them a lot of lifes or anything. Compare the first time she talks to him and that scene and it's obvious, that her character seems to be schizophrenic, which translates to bad/lazy writing.

Holdo needs to be bad so Poe can call Maz Kanata (didn't know they were so close but okay) so Maz Kanata can send Rose and Finn to Canto Bight to find a Code Breaker, who seems to be at the tables 24/7 because they don't even have to look for him so they can be thrown in jail for a parking violation (who gets thrown in jail for that) so they conveniently have a cell mate that is also a code breaker (Del Toro only getting the juicy roles from Disney) so he can break them out again (don't worry about guards, BB8 knocks them ALL out with coins) so that he agrees to break into Snoke's ship so they can find the tracker (Finn knows exactly where it is because he was a janitor there or something...didn't he use the same line in TFA for the Mega Death Planet?) but they get caught and betrayed by DJ so everything was for nothing...well not nothing. We learn a shallow lesson that animal cruelty, child labor and capitalism is bad. Who wants that from a Star Wars movie?  

The one word that flows through all of that is convenience. I don't mind a little bit of it in my movies but TLJ is so full of it, it's just plain lazy. Analyzing this movie scene by scene you can see that Johnson repeatedly fails at the same thing. How do I get those specific characters from A to B in a comprehensible way. Instead the question he's constantly asking himself seems to be "How do I get the next cool shot"?

  1. I want Rey and Kylo in the same place. Let Chewie hyperdrive her right to Snoke's ship and hyperdrive away (poor Chewie being degraded to an intergalactic Uber driver). If it's so easy, why not use the Millennium Falcon to hyperspace the rebels from their cruiser to Crait? There is more than enough room on the Falcon. Because then there's no plot...
  2. I want Finn and Rose off Canto Bight - Let's have DJ who was rejected by them a couple of minutes ago steal a ship off-screen and find the exact spot they will run to, to rescue them in time (and agree to a suicide mission because...he likes the adrenaline kick?)
  3. I don't want DJ with the good guys (Del Toro is expensive) - Let's have him betray Rose and Finn for no reason after the heartwarming scene were he gives her the medallion back because...he sounds like a snake so he's evil...
  4. I want Holdo to sacrifice herself in a cool way. Let's have her do a cool maneuver where she rips through 80 percent of the First Order fleet in light speed even though it breaks all logic from previous space battles and begs the question why nobody used this move before to destroy all those death stars (Rogue One did the space battles so much better).
  5. I want Finn and Phasma to fight. Let's create this elaborate domino effect to get him on Snoke's ship
  6. I want Phasma to have a menacing entrance before the fight. Let's teleport her far away so she can walk towards him through the smoke, even though she was standing next to Finn and was going to let him be executed a second ago. But Rose is also there... Let's teleport a Stormtrooper with a stationary artillery there that keeps shooting at her, so she has to stay in cover. But what about Finn? Why doesn't he get shot when they are doing the cool fencing? Don't worry about it they'll forget about the Stormtrooper...his gun malfunctions off screen, whatever...
  7. I want all the heroes on Crait for the finale. Let's have Rey steal an escape pod after she wakes up on Snoke's ship and then teleport her into the Millennium Falcon. She called Chewber or whatever. Let's have Finn and Rose steal an enemy ship and be the only ones that make it into the base right before the door closes. Let's have all the rebels escape to Crait with transport ships that according to Leia the First Order doesn't monitor for even though they can physically see them when they look out the window! Snoke even shows Rey that using a magnifying glass (?!)
  8. I want a cool fight on Hoth...I mean Crait. Let's teleport a Super Laser cannon onto Crait moments after the rebels are in the base that can shoot through the door, which was supposed to be impenetrable, but except from that Super Laser. Also let's have them land 500 miles away from the base instead of right in front of it, so we can have cool explosions in the snow...I mean salt. 
  9. I want a dramatic scene where Finn wants to sacrifice himself. Let's send away ALL the Tie fighters after the Falcon and let's stop the AT-AT from shooting for some reason, even though they were shooting the rebel extras down like nothing, so that Finn can come very close to increase the drama
  10. I don't want Finn to sacrifice himself anymore. Let's have Rose save him, even though she turned around with the other rebels and it is impossible for her to fly all this way back, get ahead of Finn so she can come in from a 90 degrees angle to crash into... I mean save him
  11. I want all my heroes back in the base. Let's have Finn drag Rose 500 miles through the salt, probably leaving a bright red trail, that screams "Shoot me" and not have anyone shoot him on the way. Also let's have a back entrance even though they scanned the base earlier and it had only one way in and out (because Drama), where Rey can meet them so everybody can escape.
  12. I want a happy feeling at the end. Let's have everybody hug each other even though they were a couple of hundred/thousand rebels in the beginning and now there are about twelve...against the whole First Order. But it's okay... Rey has the Jedi books and Leia said, they have everything they need so... THE END
Also isn't it amusing, that they are trying to repair that Holdo mess in the official TLJ comic?

144713.jpg


No more insults from Holdo... he is not a "trigger-happy flyboy" anymore and suddenly she HAS a plan... :)
 

asterixsmeagol

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I think I've said this before, but I don't understand the complaint that an Admiral to a Commander. There's no reason that a high ranking officer would explain all the details of a tactical maneuver like this retreat to every subordinate. It ought to be on a need-to-know basis.
 

TV's Frink

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asterixsmeagol said:
I think I've said this before

I think every point about this movie, pro or con, has been said before.  :p
 
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