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Star Wars VIII - The Last Jedi

TV's Frink

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Yes you don't get it, because no one said you're being sexist because you criticized the character.  Reading is important, perhaps give it another shot.

EDIT: I'm not watching a video that has "SJW" in the title.  It's not helping your case at all.
 

TMBTM

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LONG text ahead...!

Well, honestly I usualy don't watch a movie with a "male vs female" frame of mind but I DO think The Last Jedi purposely tends to have males characters being more negative and gloomy and the females more postive and hopeful. The thing is that I don't see how this is at the detriment of the movie itself. Males characters are interesting to me in The Last Jedi BECAUSE they have perhaps more rough edges than the ladies (and also maybe because as a man I can relate a bit more, I don't know).

Let's take them all one by one... starting by the men!

Poe: Impetuous, courageous, acts like a child who wants to be a leader but is not ready yet, until the end.
Finn: Good at heart but self centered about his friendship (or love) for Rey. He learns along the movie that love is sometimes more broad and not self centered.
Kylo: After killing his real father, he now kills his other father figure (Snoke) BUT couldn't kill his mother... Although he choses once again a selfish dark path by not following Rey (although he would like her to stay with him).
Luke: He lost faith in the Jedi way but Rey and Yoda give him the will to show everyone how things should be done (like a badass but without violence)

The ladies now!

Holdo: Gave her life to save her friends. Her purpose in the movie is to show how Poe is not trusting anyone as soon as Leia is not around anymore. In another words: she is the revelator that Poe needs Leia to control his impetuous nature and is not ready yet to be the leader. As soon as Poe learns his lesson he is ready by the end of the movie.
Rey: Her biggest fear seems real: she's not special for anyone (well, she found friends with Finn and co, but she has no family). She tried Luke as a father figure now that Han is dead, but luke kind of gently rejects her... So she tends to see in Kylo someone who is like her. Except Kylo is alone because he wants it, so he's the opposite of her. In the end she returns to her new family: the Resistance.
Rose: She lost her sister in the war. She's at the same time fragile because of it but strong, ALSO because of it. To her, fighting is not about killing enemies but to save what's left to love (animals, kids, Finn...) She's a great character but she's from and old school class of movie characters: totaly noncynical ones. The exact opposite of Han Solo in "A New Hope" if you will. So I kind of understand why some fans don't like her but at the same time she represents what is hope.
Leia: She's the "mother" of everyone (and the sister of Luke of course!). She's the one Kylo does not want to see dead, she's the one Poe doesn't want to replace, she's the mother Rey does not have.

So we see here that characters are defined by their purpose in the movie, by their actions (well written or not, it's up to your opinion), but also by their gender (father figure, mother like, childlike), and it's OKAY. A "mother like" character like Leia will surely slap the face of Poe and if you can't stand it, then don't watch movies anymore.
I don't like SJW myself... but come on, if I had to close my eyes each time something remotely looks like a politicaly correct idea or speech, then I'm not watching any blockbuster hollywood movies at all!
 

ThrowgnCpr

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DonKamillo said:
ThrowgnCpr said:
Marty (or Gary) Stu is a made-up bullshit excuse to cover and defend sexist attitudes.

I just don't get why everybody who criticizes this movie and especially what they do with Rey as a character gets boiled down to being sexist...

Let me clarify:

No one called you sexist because you criticized Rey as a character. I am calling you sexist because you used the term Mary Sue.

If you can't understand that, you're going to have difficulty here (and pretty much everywhere else in life).
 

DonKamillo

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ThrowgnCpr said:
I am calling you sexist because you used the term Mary Sue.

I understand and I'm sorry for using a made-up term created by a woman in 1973 for a female character in her Star Trek parody-fanfic to accurately describe/criticize another fictional character in a movie. I see now that made-up terms like Mary Sue or their male counterpart Marty Stu, which for example was used by the feminist pop culture magazine "Bitch" in 2006 to describe/criticize a ST:TNG character seem to trigger...I'm sorry...offend people here...again...I deeply apolo... 

ThrowgnCpr said:
Marty (or Gary) Stu is a made-up bullshit excuse to cover and defend sexist attitudes.

...wait a second...did you hear what I just...that doesn't make any...

ThrowgnCpr said:
If you can't understand that, you're going to have difficulty here (and pretty much everywhere else in life).

...okay... I'm getting life lessons from a Porg now...that's Cynic Central, I guess...  :) 


DonKamillo said:
...that's Cynic Central, I guess...

...wait...I am allowed to use my own made-up terms here right?  :huh:
 

thecuddlyninja

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You're just being willfully obstinate. You had to go to a magazine nobody has ever heard of 2006 to find an example of the male equivalent being used and you still pretend they are applied equally. You're either stubborn or really stupid. They are not. That is literally the point. It is a term only used to criticize women doing the same shit male characters have been doing forever in movies. Stop posting SJW videos and using all your idiotic dog whistle terms. Everybody here recognizes the extremely obvious thing which is that Gary Stu is not applied equally to Mary Sue. Instead of continuing to argue your asinine point (Bitch magazine, I mean, come on) you should consider reflecting. Your use of the sexist term is not because you hate women or consider yourself sexist. It's probably just because it never occurred to you to criticize male characters the same way as female ones. Ask yourself why it rubs you the wrong way when female characters do certain things. Recognizing that will be the starting point of your personal growth toward being a more conscious, intelligent person and less of a dick, should that change ever happen. I'm the meantime, I have said nothing that hasn't been said in this thread already before. Instead of ignoring everybody telling you to stop being lazy and read it, you keep posting the same old Mary Sue bullshit. I'm amazed at the level of patience in this thread.
 

DonKamillo

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thecuddlyninja said:
You had to go to a magazine nobody has ever heard of 2006 to find an example of the male equivalent being used...

Didn't take me long to find an example (one quick Wikipedia check).   ;)

thecuddlyninja said:
...and you still pretend they are applied equally. 

Nope, never did that...

thecuddlyninja said:
Stop posting SJW videos...

Did you watch it? Cause it's not a SJW video...

thecuddlyninja said:
It's probably just because it never occurred to you to criticize male characters the same way as female ones. Ask yourself why it rubs you the wrong way when female characters do certain things.

Wow mate, I wonder what happened on those past 70-something pages to traumatize you all like that? Everybody is telling me to learn how to read or read the whole thread, yet apparently nobody can read the couple of posts I made here. If you did, you would notice, that at no point did I criticize a character BECAUSE of his/her gender. I use that term (and will continue to do so (probably not in this thread/forum though)) for female AND male characters, who have these implausible and lazily written traits. Need an example for a male one to balance out my alleged sexism? How about some guy named James Bond.

It's like most of you (@"TVs Frink", @ThrowgnCpr, @thecuddlyninja, etc.) are just scanning posts for keywords like "SJW" or "Mary Sue" and once you find something, immediately start ranting... 

I dare everybody to stop scanning, go back, read my posts again and/or watch the videos I posted (especially the "SJW" one) before you start shooting in all directions with your pointless accusations...

thecuddlyninja said:
I'm amazed at the level of patience in this thread.

Everybody exploding with angry rants = patience.... yeah right...  :D
 

Zamros

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iu
 

DonKamillo

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Zamros said:

If there aren't any pointless insults or accusations being shot into my direction, I'll stop Zamros, promise  ;)
 

TV's Frink

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Ok folks that's enough.  Additional posts on this tired subject will be deleted and infractions issued.
 

Zamros

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OK guys, you've won me over.

I like Porgs now.
 

TM2YC

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DonKamillo said:
Need an example for a male one to balance out my alleged sexism? How about some guy named James Bond.

That's exactly the point. Nobody in the entire history of humanity has ever said the James Bond movies were awful for having a main character who is bloody amazing at everything he touches, who speaks every language, is practically indestructible and is effectively immortal, despite him appearing in over 50 films. There is a very good reason why some men ignore the same "flaws" they see in the way Rey is written and love countless other insanely proficient male heroes like Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones, Tony Stark, or Aragorn. The problem is that they can't admit it to themselves.

EDIT:

TVs Frink said:
Ok folks that's enough.  Additional posts on this tired subject will be deleted and infractions issued.

^ Oops, I didn't see that, sorry Frink.
 

DonKamillo

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TM2YC said:
There is a very good reason why some men ignore the same "flaws" they see in the way Rey is written and love countless other insanely proficient male heroes like Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones, Tony Stark, or Aragorn. The problem is that they can't admit it to themselves.

Well, I wouldn't count Luke Skywalker and Tony Stark as both of them for the most part undergo that hero's cycle that makes them compelling characters. Even Aragorn hits most of the points:

[img=400x400]https://imgoat.com/uploads/988c7f88eb/136300.jpg[/img]

But with Indiana Jones you're spot on  :)

I guess James Bond and Indiana Jones have that charisma to them that makes people forget they are in essence very bland characters. With Rey I really liked her in TFA, which also made me swallow that "I'm perfect"-pill but in my opinion there's nothing charming about her in TLJ. 

She turned from this:

[img=550x250]https://imgoat.com/uploads/988c7f88eb/136301.jpg[/img]

into this for basically the whole movie:

[img=400x200]https://imgoat.com/uploads/988c7f88eb/136302.png[/img]

Johnson had the chance to have some real character development AND subvert our expectations in a good way by making her join Kylo but instead of going that extra step he turned around and went back to where she started... 

But whatever...I don't want to cast the wrath of the overlords here upon me by talking bad about Rey again  :(
 

Moe_Syzlak

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Can we pivot the conversation to discuss Rey in general without invoking the ridiculous terms bandied about?  Or is it too far gone? Because I definitely see a Hero’s Journey for Rey.
 

TV's Frink

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Moe_Syzlak said:
Can we pivot the conversation to discuss Rey in general without invoking the ridiculous terms bandied about?

I'd like to be optimistic but I've been on the internet too long.
 

Moe_Syzlak

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Well let’s try. 

I see Luke’s hero’s journey as longing for the adventure and heroism he believes the father he never knew embodied. Rey longs for “belonging” and to be someone (I believe this is also mirrored in the fan base wanting her to be Obi Wan’s daughter or some nonsense). 

For Luke, the revelation/abyss is the reveal that Vader is his father, of course. For Rey, the revelation/abyss is the realization that she doesn’t “belong” and her parents were insignificant to the larger story. In many ways, this is the figurative death of both characters as wide-eyed innocents. Both have the briefest of temptation to take a different path (Luke by joining Vader; Rey by joining Kylo), but ultimately cast aside those old selves and are (figuratively) reborn with newfound resolve. 

There are, of course, other characteristics of the Hero’s Journey present (call to adventure, refusal, mentor, etc.) as well. But the important parallel in my estimation is that Luke must confront the reality that is his lineage and Rey must confront the reality that is her lack of lineage.
 

TV's Frink

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Rey already got a Hero's Journey.


;)
 

ssj

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hero's journey:
i'm hoping rey will become the new snork or palpitationtine.
because i want her to have as much fun as these guys.

latest
 

TV's Frink

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Oh god I love "Snork" for when I get there...
 
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