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Star Wars VIII - The Last Jedi

Detective

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Moe_Syzlak said:
As for disconnecting from the Force, I see it as him realizing the Force seeks equilibrium. And while a strong light side Force user is connected to the Force, an equally opposing dark side will rise. So I see his actions as heroic and not at all out of character. 

Ahhh interesting.  Haven't heard that point of view before... Yeah, if this was the reasoning, I think I would have been ok with that for Luke's character - but I probably would have questioned: "Well if the dark side in Ben was growing because of the light in Luke, what about the dark in Snoke?"

(Personally I don't like the concept of balance in the Force since it doesn't fit with the OT that well - heck, 'the light side' isn't even mentioned - and it throws out good triumphing over evil in the end... but that's another topic  :rolleyes: )
 

asterixsmeagol

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Moe_Syzlak said:
I see it as him realizing the Force seeks equilibrium. And while a strong light side Force user is connected to the Force, an equally opposing dark side will rise. So I see his actions as heroic and not at all out of character.

This is something I never understood about the prequels. The Jedi Council believe they have eliminated the Sith and that the Light side of the Force has basically won. Why would they want to bring balance to the Force through Anakin? That can only mean the Dark will rise.
 

Masirimso17

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The more I think about The Last Jedi, the more I’m loving it.

Didn’t think about Finn’s arc in this movie too much (need a rewatch, and re-evaluation about this), but there certainly was one. He re-learned his bravery arc from the previous movie, and more importantly, learned about how the rich profit from the war, and use the poor, showing him that things aren’t as black and white as it seems. Rose showed him why she and so many others rebelled to the Empire and now the First Order.

Rey most definitely had development, in fact after Luke’s, her development is the most important arc in themovie, maybe even more so than Luke’s.

The following was a comment Film Theory’s latest video which claimed that since they teased Rey’s parents in The Force Awakens (which itself is wrong), they had to pay that off in this movie. He supported his argument with the Chekov’s Gun Rule.

Rey was always meant to be a nobody. In The Force Awakens, Rey had to learn to let go of her past and accept her destiny. That was her character arc. The reason for why the movie gave importance to the parents was not to tease a surprise for the next movie, but to be an important flaw and obstacle for Rey (no Mary Sue here, people). She was waiting for her parents who were never coming back, and she had learn to look forward and accept her destiny, Luke.

The reason this was used as an anti-twist in The Last Jedi, aside from being a perfect parallel to the Vader twist in Empire, is because Rey’s heritage (and the identity of Snoke) were so questioned and theorized in the internet that it became absurd (see “Your Snoke Theory Sucks”) but they actually used this to their advantage.

They used this for Rey’s continuing arc: her experiencing failure, and disappointment in her idols, and also temptation to run and hide in the past again... in doubt she kept wanting to know about her parents, just like the fans. She thought this was the key to learning what she was meant to be, while what she was meant to be was already apparent: being a hero and inspiration to the Resistance... which is why the anti-twist with her learning her parents are nobody works so well. It’s a giant step for Rey’s continuing development.
 

TM2YC

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^ Abso-bloody-exactly.

tumblr_inline_o2mtc2i28T1s49fbc_540.jpg


*Unrelated scene of Rey's parents (who are definitely awesome Jedi Rebel heroes for some reason!) selling her into child slavery to a junk-dealer scumbag*
 

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asterixsmeagol said:
Moe_Syzlak said:
I see it as him realizing the Force seeks equilibrium. And while a strong light side Force user is connected to the Force, an equally opposing dark side will rise. So I see his actions as heroic and not at all out of character.

This is something I never understood about the prequels. The Jedi Council believe they have eliminated the Sith and that the Light side of the Force has basically won. Why would they want to bring balance to the Force through Anakin? That can only mean the Dark will rise.

This is explained in this exchange:

Obi-Wan Kenobi: "With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?"

Mace Windu: "So the prophecy says."

Yoda: "A prophecy…that misread could have been."

It's likely that the Jedi misread the prophecy, and thought that the destruction of the Sith would bring balance to the force. When it could have been the one that destroys both the Sith and the Jedi (As Anakin/Luke arguably did) will bring balance to the force.
 

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Detective said:
Would the same character we left at the end of ROTJ then go on to turn his back on not just the Force and the Jedi - but his own sister he moved towards the dark side for?  Doesn't that seem like an unbelievable extreme reaction for an older version of the same character?  [...] I don't want to end this on a "we'll agree to disagree" because I want to be on your side of the fence

Eh, but on my side of the fence (though I respect ST fans), you get the Thrawn Trilogy!   ;)


Masirimso17 said:
He re-learned his bravery arc from the previous movie, and more importantly, learned about how the rich profit from the war, and use the poor, showing him that things aren’t as black and white as it seems.

One side in this war blows up inhabited entire planets without any warning; the other side does not... seems pretty black-and-white to moi. It's not even a WWII scenario where one side is perpetrating a historic genocide, but both sides are dropping nightmarish bombs on each others' civilian-filled industrial cities. I personally therefore don't see how the fact that a particular ship merchant may have supplied both sides changes or even complicates this dynamic at all.



Zamros said:
This is explained in this exchange:*quote* It's likely that the Jedi misread the prophecy, and thought that the destruction of the Sith would bring balance to the force. When it could have been the one that destroys both the Sith and the Jedi (As Anakin/Luke arguably did) will bring balance to the force.

Chefelf's 91 Reasons to Hate Star Wars: Episode III: Revenge of the Sith:

Untitled2.jpg


:p
 

Masirimso17

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Jeez... on YouTube, already everyone’s calling me an idiot because Rey is clearly a Mary Sue  :dodgy:
 

ThrowgnCpr

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Masirimso17 said:
Jeez... on YouTube, already everyone’s calling me an idiot because Rey is clearly a Mary Sue  :dodgy:

MRW someone uses the Mary Sue argument:

Ch6CZ8b.gif
 

Zamros

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There was a video posted in one of the ideas threads of some puppet complaining about Rey being a Mary Sue.
His point was made impressively self-unaware when he used Luke's character in A New Hope as a counter-example.
But nobody calls Luke a Garry Stew for being amazing at everything he does in A New Hope despite living on a farm his entire life (Arguably has less reason to be as talented as Rey).
Rey=Mary Sue explanations usually come with an undertone of "Muh feminist agenda", because now women are in prominent roles both in the films and behind the scenes.

I'd like to make a point that all people that complain about Rey being a Mary Sue are merely threatened by the existence of a strong female character in their action figure collection. What evidence do I have? As much as they do about the point they're making.
 

TV's Frink

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The Mary Sue thing has been argued to death already all over the internet.  We have decided we aren't having it here again, so no matter what side you are on, feel free to stop posting about it.  Otherwise we can help you stop posting about it.  Thank you for your cooperation.
 

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Zamros said:
But nobody calls Luke a Garry Stew for being amazing at everything he does in A New Hope despite living on a farm his entire life (Arguably has less reason to be as talented as Rey). 

This video seems like a humorous but valid character development comparison to me - but I'm curious what you all think.  I do NOT want to discuss Rey = Mary Sue - but wouldn't mind maturely discussing her character development vs Luke's.  There's definitely a difference...  (and differences in character are fine - just looking to discuss if one's character is written more poorly than the other)

(my dog in the hunt: I have 3 daughters and want them to have a female heroine to look up to in this ST like I had with Luke - but I'm disappointed with Rey's journey so far.  I wanted them to see her "realistically struggle" like most would in real life - like Luke did.  I didn't really get the "struggle" from Rey - it's just been a "this is what I do".  Yes, her life has been difficult, but both movies presented her as someone who doesn't need help or need to rely on anyone else.  And that's fine for her to be an innately stronger character, and I defended her in TFA, but I was hoping for more struggle in TLJ.)


There's one for ESB/TLJ too.
 

ThrowgnCpr

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You don't want to discuss Mary Sue, but post a video entitled "Mary Sue" edition?

You're treading on thin ice here...
 

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ThrowgnCpr said:
You don't want to discuss Mary Sue, but post a video entitled "Mary Sue" edition?

You're treading on thin ice here...

I know - and I know it's a sensitive topic... not sure if people can eat the meat and spit out the bones, but the video makes an interesting comparison.  It's unfortunate to lose the point that the video makes because of the title.


It'd be nice to compare and discuss Rey and Luke's character developments as they're written - how they're similar and how they're different. If they are both 'good' and just different, or if one is better from an objective standpoint.  Get into the writing and presentation from a critical eye and see where improvement can be made from a story-telling perspective - wanting to tell better future stories.  Things that are good, things that don't work, etc.

To compare to another heroic female-led movie: I really like Moana.  The first time she takes out the boat, she fails.  She thinks she knows better but is wrong.  When she tries to find Maui, she fails.  She can't handle the task by herself.  She's headstrong when fighting Tafiti and suffers a major defeat, she think she needs Maui, but he leaves - and in the end, she overcomes all of that.  She stands up to her fears, knows she'll never be at peace unless she gives it everything she's got - and triumphs in the end.  She learns perseverance in the face of hardship.  That's a character journey that I can relate to.

I feel the same way about Luke in the OT.  He's a relatable character the way he's written.  He constantly needs help and fails.  (and makes at least 1 very bad decision according to 2 of his teachers)  Rey's journey feels nothing like that.  Time and time again we're shown that Rey doesn't need help - she's regularly put in circumstances where she succeeds by her own volition.  The only failure I see in TFA is getting captured by Kylo.  (that video shows the Luke/Rey ANH/TFA comparison pretty well)

I like the idea of Rey and how she's presented - I like the premise of the character and how Daisy plays her - I just wanted more character flaws that make her more relatable and was expecting that in TLJ.  I was hoping that TLJ would show her NEED to be trained by Luke, how there were things she didn't know that she needed help with - and in the end, lose in a battle to Kylo or some other twist with her failing.  (her "failing" to turn Kylo isn't quite the same - that's someone else's failure more than hers)  Then we'd be able to root for her in Ep 9 to redeem herself and have a place to come back from.  We all love the underdog story... 

Do you all find her relatable as she's written?  The journey her character has gone on seems similar to your own life journey?  Do you think she and Luke have similar journeys?
 

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Detective said:
Do you all find her relatable as she's written?  The journey her character has gone on seems similar to your own life journey?  Do you think she and Luke have similar journeys?

They are both characters on a journey to discover the world and themselves.
Rey have some skills that Luke don't have at first but it's also because they didn't have the same life at all.
Luke is a farmboy who never seems he went into a real fight. Rey has to physicaly fight to survive every day.
BUT Rey does not really want adventure in episode 7. Luke... he may be a bit afraid to go on an adventure at first, but he always wanted it, and when the adventure starts, boy, he is the first one saying "we have to save the Princess", "we have to go destroy the Death Star", etc. He puts himself in the front line each time.
Rey is most of the time running away. Even when she's piloting the Falcon with skill on Jakku, she just wants to escape the First Order. She's obviously someone good, like Luke, but she doesn't WANT to go and have adventures "for the love of everything good".  Only during her final confrontation with Kylo she decides to fight because she can't let Finn behind (and well, Kylo don't let her much choice anyway)

I think Daisy's charisma and talent made the character work, maybe more than the script itself, like Mark Hamill was exactly the actor who could say George's corny dialogue with enough conviction and innocence that they could work.
 

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Detective, I agree with you entirely. My favorite hero in fiction is Philip Pullman's Lyra, who is often arrogant, headstrong, ignorant, susceptible to manipulation, and makes lots of mistakes. That said, she's fiercely and uncompromisingly loyal to her friends, fearless, clever, and generally indomitable. Rey, OTOH (despite an even less wordly and protective upbringing than Lyra's), is unfailingly kind, seemingly immune to temptation, an expert pilot and mechanic, able to understand Wookie, a skilled fighter and a Force prodigy. When she visits a Dark Side cave, her experience is only vaguely unsettling, and her only character weakness seems to be a mild naïveté concerning the prospective return of her parents, the goodness of Luke, and the redeemability of Kylo. And I think the video you posted (which, apart from an on-screen text title, contains no spoken mention of the Term That Must Not Be Named) is an insightful one.

I, too, wish Rey had had a lot more to do in TLJ. Despite not finding her the most compelling character in TFA, I would certainly have preferred to see her developed, make some mistakes, and emerge stronger from them through persistence, than to go off on a wild horse chase with Rose and Finn.
 

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ThrowgnCpr said:
You don't want to discuss Mary Sue, but post a video entitled "Mary Sue" edition?

You're treading on thin ice here...

This thread:
iu


I'm more than willing to accept my part of the blame, here. :s

EDIT:

As for Hamill's performance, and his conviction in Lucas' lines. There's no better an interview that sums that up than this (Story starts about 3:30 in):
 

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TMBTM said:
Rey is most of the time running away. Even when she's piloting the Falcon with skill on Jakku, she just wants to escape the First Order. She's obviously someone good, like Luke, but she doesn't WANT to go and have adventures "for the love of everything good".  Only during her final confrontation with Kylo she decides to fight because she can't let Finn behind (and well, Kylo don't let her much choice anyway)

Agreed.  She's an extremely selfless and good person.  But she just goes along with the story and is there for the ride.  And... that's kinda it.  There is a call to adventure which she dismisses.  In TLJ she feels this power inside her she doesn't understand.  She then gets connected with Kylo, senses some good in him and wants to turn him.  That's about it though, right?  Does she have any character flaws or make any mistakes in her decisions?

TMBTM said:
I think Daisy's charisma and talent made the character work, maybe more than the script itself, like Mark Hamill was exactly the actor who could say George's corny dialogue with enough conviction and innocence that they could work.

100% agreed here too.  I definitely had the "icebox effect" on me when I watched her in TFA.  I really liked her character, then thinking back I realized - wait, what IS her character?

So I'm not crazy thinking her character needs more depth?

Gaith said:
I, too, wish Rey had had a lot more to do in TLJ. Despite not finding her the most compelling character in TFA, I would certainly have preferred to see her developed, make some mistakes, and emerge stronger from them through persistence, than to go off on a wild horse chase with Rose and Finn.

LT4GuFu.gif




Re: Hamill on George's lines.  Wow... I'm so glad OT Lucas was willing to listen to the actors... holy cow imagine that line in ANH...
 

Masirimso17

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ThrowgnCpr said:
You don't want to discuss Mary Sue, but post a video entitled "Mary Sue" edition?

You're treading on thin ice here...

Haha that reminds me of this from The Dark Knight Rises:

QuerulousGrotesqueJerboa-max-1mb.gif

263873_v1.jpg


So, @"Detective"... Exile, or death? :p

About Rey, the Force being so strong with Rey was made for her character arc. She’s meant to be a hero, a Jedi, to train under Luke, but she’s afraid, she keeps running away and still holds on to the romanticized idea of her parents. Her growth from wanting to escape (“I’m never touching that thing again. I don’t want any part in this!”) to insisting on training under Luke (“You didn’t fail Kylo. Kylo failed you. But I won’t”) is great, and it’s very apparent to me how she develops and matures.

Also, she can fight because she had a rough childhood and had to learn to protect herself (with her staff), and her knowledge of ships comes from scavenging their parts and working on them.

How can she understand droids and Wookies? The Force helps them understand them. I know, flimsy explanation, but I remember clearly in Knights of the Old Republic that the player says “I can understand Wookies, I can use the Force (or an equivalent of that). Legends, I know, but who cares? Minor quibble anyways.
 

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Masirimso17 said:
Her growth from wanting to escape (“I’m never touching that thing again. I don’t want any part in this!”) to insisting on training under Luke (“You didn’t fail Kylo. Kylo failed you. But I won’t”) is great, and it’s very apparent to me how she develops and matures.

Er, that's the bog standard Hero's Journey 101, with a near-obligatory side of Resisting the Call. (And the same initial character arc as Luke, Han, Finn, and Jyn, not to mention Indiana Jones four times over, and a million other examples.) Adequate? Sure. But, Great? Greatness lies in the execution, and I'm not much seeing it, I'm afraid.

(And she does fail Luke, by falling for Snoke's trap, and it's only blind luck on her part that Snoke didn't murder her outright, and was so busy cackling he allowed Kylo to kill him. Sure, it all works out, but, unlike Luke, I don't recall anyone calling her out on her rashness.)
 
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