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Star Wars VIII - The Last Jedi

The Scribbling Man

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ThrowgnCpr said:
Warning: If anyone seriously uses Mary Sue or Gary/Larry Stu here, they are getting perma-banned.

To be safe, I'd just ban Mary and Larry - then no one can take advantage of them.
 

DigModiFicaTion

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Moe_Syzlak said:
I haven’t seen this sort of stupidity here, but it is rampant in another forum I frequent. I just posted this there and thought some of you would get a chuckle out of it too:

We watched The Kingsmen sequel last night....

Not sure how this actually is connected to TLJ though  :rolleyes:
 

Moe_Syzlak

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DigModiFicaTion said:
Moe_Syzlak said:
I haven’t seen this sort of stupidity here, but it is rampant in another forum I frequent. I just posted this there and thought some of you would get a chuckle out of it too:

We watched The Kingsmen sequel last night....

Not sure how this actually is connected to TLJ though  :rolleyes:

Then consider yourself lucky.
 

Gaith

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Moe_Syzlak said:
I haven’t seen this sort of stupidity here, but it is rampant in another forum I frequent. I just posted this there and thought some of you would get a chuckle out of it too:

Er, if the intended joke is that "of course Vaughn treats his female Golden Circle characters well," I'm afraid the reality is he really doesn't...  :-/

(But, that movie has its own thread)
 

ssj

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larry stew? is that what's for dinner?
 

Moe_Syzlak

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Gaith said:
Moe_Syzlak said:
I haven’t seen this sort of stupidity here, but it is rampant in another forum I frequent. I just posted this there and thought some of you would get a chuckle out of it too:

Er, if the intended joke is that "of course Vaughn treats his female Golden Circle characters well," I'm afraid the reality is he really doesn't...  :-/

(But, that movie has its own thread)

No, I’m afraid you’ve missed the point as well. Perhaps we should drop it.
 

TV's Frink

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I thought the point was that people suck.
 

The Scribbling Man

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Moe_Syzlak said:
TVs Frink said:
I thought the point was that people suck.

Certainly on the Internet they do.

wd8UydF.gif
 

TV's Frink

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Moe_Syzlak said:
TVs Frink said:
I thought the point was that people suck.

Certainly on the Internet they do.

Certainly it's not limited to the internet.  Probably a higher percentage though.
 

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Wanted to catch up on what you all thought of the movie - just caught up reading this thread this morning.  I respect many of your opinions and thoughts and appreciate you all sharing them here, thank you.

I really WANT to like this movie - but I'm struggling... I read some of the reasoning from some of you on why Luke's character in TLJ is fitting, but it still doesn't sit well with me.  (Heck, even Mark Hamill himself said he had to pretend this was "Jake Skywalker" to be able to act it out)  I didn't see where the other problems I have are already addressed by those of you that like it, and would love it if you all could help me reframe these to hopefully appreciate them more. 

To put things in perspective, I liked some of the moments that others have as major complaints.
1. Rey's a nobody.  I told people since TFA that if they make Rey related to someone - they're screwing this up and shrinking the universe way too much.  The Force is a religion - anyone can tap into it with training and study.  That's how I've known it since the OT.  I don't think they should have teased a connection at all in TFA.

2. Snoke died with no backstory.  (and how he died was pretty cool - his overconfidence was his weakness)  Wasn't thrilled about another Emperor villain for an entire trilogy - glad to see they got rid of him.  We know nothing of the Emperor's backstory in the OT, and we know nothing of Palpatine or Maul or Dooku's backstory in the PT.  I'm more interested in Kylo Ren - and they fleshed him out more.  (would love even more than they gave us though)

3. Luke was a force projection.  This fits completely with the Force from the OT - it should never be used for attack, only for knowledge and defense.  A true Jedi Master fights by minimizing loss of life as much as possible - even better, not fighting at all.  If he went Force Unleashed on the FO, I would have been disappointed.


On to the main problems I have:
1. So many red herring/just kidding moments.  One or two 'gotcha' moments are great, but this was overkill for me.  I lost personal investment after a while (I think when DJ was introduced) - I couldn't trust anything the movie was trying to stand up.  Is there an objective reason why this is good for a film that I'm missing?
(ie: Dreadnought is amazing FO tech - just kidding, 1 X-wing and 1 bomber can take it out.  Luke is going to train Rey, just kidding, no he's not.  Leia's dead, just kidding, she's alive.  There's only 1 code-breaker that can help you - just kidding, there's a random guy in prison who can help too.  Luke is the only hope for the resistance (that's the whole point of TFA) - just kidding, he's not.  There's no way they can penetrate this door - just kidding, they have a huge canon.  Finn's going to sacrifice himself, just kidding, he's not.  There's no way out of this cave - just kidding, there is.  Luke's back like we remember him - just kidding, he's dead.)

2. Plot holes and lack of character development/wrong characterizations of characters we know.  (talked about a lot - don't need to re-tread - Rey and Finn's lack of development, bad characterization of 'silly creature' Yoda and Luke)  Am I simply just expecting too much and should overlook these things in my Star Wars movies now?  (I will say that I heard Hyperspace tracking was an easter egg in Rogue One - that's pretty cool)  For Luke - how long was he supposed to be self-exiled since the Jedi Academy burning?  If TLJ was later that year... that helps things make sense a bit - but that's not the impression I got.

3. Why are dark side users stronger than 'light side' using similar abilities?  This rings the PT bell so loudly in my ears.  (Yoda losing a fight to Sidious)  Yoda has to concentrate to lift the X-wing but Snoke toys with Rey and the lightsaber with ease.  Luke dies from the difficulty of force projection after a few minutes, but Snoke was apparently causing 2 people to be connected physically - repeatedly - and he seems fine.

4. Is this about good vs evil or isn't it?  The movie seems to be showing both - which both can't logically be true. (and the "from a certain point of view" concept really isn't a comparison to talking about moral ambiguity.  ie: from a certain point of view, it would be morally right for Rey to lean on hate, fear, aggression and anger.  That would completely belittle what Yoda trains Luke in, wouldn't it?  Am I missing something?)

If you liked this movie - wonderful - super glad you did.  I don't want to poo-poo on your parade - I want to join in!

Help me faneditors... you're my only hope...
 

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Sorry for the long post and the possibly bad english and typos ;)


1 - I kind of agree that Rian Johnson played with too many twists all along the movie. I was entertained by them, so it worked on me, but like I already said, I'm wondering if those story tricks can resist the test of time. I'll tell ya in some years!

2 - I don't see "plot holes", I see story decisions that people can not agree with but did not bother me.
I do agree that Yoda sounded a bit too much like Yoda playing with "unaware Luke" in ESB. But the overall scene was good.

I think you're indeed focusing a lot on the details (Sherlock avatar!) when I usualy don't. For example you say that you find cool that they teased the hyperspace tracking in Rogue One. I really don't care about that sort of things. Thinking twice after the movie I told myself, wait, Tarkin put a tracking device on the Falcon in ep4, so is that a continuity error? But in the end it's not really the same thing, and EVEN if there was a continuity error it's not a huge problem and it's not that sort of thing that makes a movie good or bad for me. What makes a good movie is not really "the product" that I'm watching (if all the lines are going in exact same direction or not), what's important is what I feel when I'm watching it. For example I loved the first SAW movie and I found amazing what's happening in the very last scene, even if it is honnestly not really plausible... The fact that no one recognize Superman when Clark Kent put his glasses on is not a plot hole, it is simply what the movie is telling you. You agree or you don't, you feel comfortable with it or not. That's all.

I think Luke is hiding for at least some years because Luke looks a bit younger but Kylo's not a child. I guess something like 5 years? I don't understand how this would be a problem though.

3 - Why are dark side users stronger than 'light side' using similar abilities?
Because it's easier to break things that to repair them?
I'm not sure I can follow your examples though, Snoke connecting Rey and Kylo for example, I don't see that as a "full time job". I never pictured Snoke watching Rey and Kylo all along (or else he would already know where is Rey) and keeping using his power to keep the contact.


When you say Yoda concentrates to lift the ship so it shows that it's difficult for him to do that compare to Snoke lighting Rey and scanning her mind... I think that if you really want to get in the details 1: Rey is somehow not as heavy than a X-Wing! and 2: the meaning of the ESB scene was to show Luke that it is EASY to lift an X-Wing if you really wants it. So saying that it looks difficult for Yoda to do that goes against the meaning of that scene.


4. Is this about good vs evil or isn't it?
In 1977 it was clearly about good vs evil.
During the prequels, it was already more a grey area where good guys could turn bad.
For this new trilogy... of course there are still and  good and evil but I don't think it's the focus. I think it is more about learning who you are and dealing with the past and the future.
That said my main problem with this trilogy is that it really seems there's not "great plan" from the start. Each director work on each episode like if it's a new story. I hope I'm wrong but from what I heard Rian said, I think it's the case. So I don't know what the whole trilogy will be "about" until I see Ep9...
BUT... even Lucas didn't really know everything when he made the OT and the prequels.
 

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Detective said:
I really WANT to like this movie - but I'm struggling... I read some of the reasoning from some of you on why Luke's character in TLJ is fitting, but it still doesn't sit well with me.  (Heck, even Mark Hamill himself said he had to pretend this was "Jake Skywalker" to be able to act it out)  I didn't see where the other problems I have are already addressed by those of you that like it, and would love it if you all could help me reframe these to hopefully appreciate them more. 
Here is a recent think piece that may help you understand the pro-Luke-in-TLJ side of the argument, even if you decide you don't agree with it.
In Defence Of Luke Skywalker

Regarding Mark Hamill's comments, it is also public record that he's backtracked on those comments and believes the film is better for the direction Rian went in. Creative differences during production are normal and if done in an honest and healthy fashion can bring out the best in everyone.
 

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There's an argument to be made that Mark may have changed his tune after his comments were so widely reported and his initial comments are closer to his actual feelings.  I have no idea if this is true (only Mark truly knows) but it's certainly possible.

There's also an argument to be made that Mark's opinion of Luke's portrayal in TLJ isn't terribly important.  Just because you play a character (even one you've played multiple times across the years) does not give you ownership of it.
 

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Thank you for the replies!  That article did convince me at least partially about Luke's character change, thank you.  I'm now on board with him considering killing his nephew in a moment of weakness.  (please don't quote that out of context to the police...)

TMBTM said:
I think Luke is hiding for at least some years because Luke looks a bit younger but Kylo's not a child. I guess something like 5 years? I don't understand how this would be a problem though.

I guess the timing would be better for Luke's character feeling more "Luke-ish".  If it was recent, he would still be reeling and in the "what did I just do?!" stage of restitution instead of in the hopeless and given up stage we see.  Maybe I'm looking too deeply into it   :p

TMBTM said:
3 - Why are dark side users stronger than 'light side' using similar abilities?
Because it's easier to break things that to repair them?
I'm not sure I can follow your examples though, Snoke connecting Rey and Kylo for example, I don't see that as a "full time job". I never pictured Snoke watching Rey and Kylo all along (or else he would already know where is Rey) and keeping using his power to keep the contact.

When you say Yoda concentrates to lift the ship so it shows that it's difficult for him to do that compare to Snoke lighting Rey and scanning her mind... I think that if you really want to get in the details 1: Rey is somehow not as heavy than a X-Wing! and 2: the meaning of the ESB scene was to show Luke that it is EASY to lift an X-Wing if you really wants it. So saying that it looks difficult for Yoda to do that goes against the meaning of that scene.

So I thought that Snoke was Force projecting Rey and Kylo together somehow - Rey can see Kylo's surroundings, but Kylo can't see hers - but still gets wet.  They are somehow physically in a similar space - just like how Luke does it at the end.  Did I read that concept wrong?  I was thinking that they were setting up Luke's ability for the climax.  Just that Luke died from the strain while Snoke didn't seem affected.
And for Yoda - I was referring to Yoda needing to concentrate, close his eyes, use his hand, etc.  Yes, it was 'easy' for him - size matters not.  (again, don't misquote me)  But Yoda clearly needs to focus more than Snoke does to use the Force in a similar fashion.  Snoke is just sitting there laughing, not even moving a finger for most of it.  It's rare in Star Wars for people to use the Force like that without a hand gesture.  (Only time I can think of is Vader choking Admiral Ozzel)  Again, maybe I'm looking too deeply into it...   :rolleyes:


TMBTM said:
4. Is this about good vs evil or isn't it?
In 1977 it was clearly about good vs evil.
During the prequels, it was already more a grey area where good guys could turn bad.
For this new trilogy... of course there are still and  good and evil but I don't think it's the focus. I think it is more about learning who you are and dealing with the past and the future.

Yah, I'm totally fine with weaknesses in the good guys, where they make choices that are morally questionable - that can be good storytelling.  Just was unclear about the moral ambiguity of how the Force was presented...  The Force itself and good vs evil didn't seem so cut and dry.  I definitely need to see it again when it comes out on Blu-ray...

TMBTM said:
That said my main problem with this trilogy is that it really seems there's not "great plan" from the start. Each director work on each episode like if it's a new story. I hope I'm wrong but from what I heard Rian said, I think it's the case. So I don't know what the whole trilogy will be "about" until I see Ep9...
BUT... even Lucas didn't really know everything when he made the OT and the prequels.

Yeah, that is scary.  While the OT did end up well, not sure if lightning can strike the same place twice...  Not unless Yoda has something to say about it.  :p
 

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Double post since different topic:

Joseph Gordon-Levitt essay on The Last Jedi.  Similar to what has been said about Luke in the thread with more exposition.

Yes, it might not be an objective perspective...  (the director's friend WANTS to back up his buddy's decisions) but a well written one at least.
 

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Detective said:
Double post since different topic:

Joseph Gordon-Levitt essay on The Last Jedi.  Similar to what has been said about Luke in the thread with more exposition.

Yes, it might not be an objective perspective...  (the director's friend WANTS to back up his buddy's decisions) but a well written one at least.

Funny because even if I loved the movie as much as he does I only agree by 50% with his argument when he's saying that Luke changed a lot.
He is older and pissed off, like most of us will be... (hell, it has already started with me! lol) but I still see the Luke Skywalker I loved when I see him in Last Jedi.
Luke was kind of pissed off and whiny in Episode 4 because he could not do what he wanted to do.
He also does not do the right things in ESB, and almost turn "dark sidish" a the end of ROTJ.
He is kind at heart but Luke always let his emotions guide his acts. Much like his father... only he didn't turn to the dark side.
SO it's not shocking to me to see that not everything turned out the way Luke wanted in his life.
Even the trailers told everyone how Luke was portrayed in the movie. It's not like if they took us by surprise!
So, yes, Luke "changed" because life changes most of us, but no, it's not an unrecognizable character. It was 100% my Luke Skywalker.
 

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TMBTM said:
So, yes, Luke "changed" because life changes most of us, but no, it's not an unrecognizable character. It was 100% my Luke Skywalker.

I have to admit, part of me is a little jealous because of how clearly you see it   :) 

For me I still am having a hard time balancing the Luke between ESB and ROTJ with TLJ Luke...  Luke confronts Vader and loses, finds out Vader is his father, lost his hand (in our world this is a psychologically big deal, not sure in a galaxy far, far away) he's torn about whether or not he made the right decision in trying to rescue Han and Leia, feels betrayed by Obi-wan and Yoda, still wants to help the rebellion...  100% the lowest point of his life up to this point.  Yet in spite of that, confidently comes back to rescue Han, humbly comes back to train under Yoda, and eventually goes on to confront Vader.  He turns towards the dark side, rejects its call and successfully confronts Vader and the Emperor.  We leave Luke at peace and fulfilled.

Even if we grant to his character the moment of weakness with Ben...  is that, combined with the destruction of the Jedi Academy, a lower point than ESB and ROTJ for Luke?  (Also keeping in mind: Would a more mature person who has already overcome extreme difficulty react "worse" than a younger, less mature version of themselves?)  For discussion sake let's say that it is a lower point for Luke and it affects him worse - he had become prideful and a bit apathetic leading up to the night time confrontation - he then blames himself for all of this.  Would the same character we left at the end of ROTJ then go on to turn his back on not just the Force and the Jedi - but his own sister he moved towards the dark side for?  Doesn't that seem like an unbelievable extreme reaction for an older version of the same character?  I could see a failed Luke needing some time off to regroup, refocus - but that would be a means to an end to right his wrongs.

I don't want to end this on a "we'll agree to disagree" because I want to be on your side of the fence - but if the reasoning I've heard so far hasn't swayed how I understand this character, not sure what will...  :huh:  (unless my analysis and understanding of the character is off - then please correct that!)

edit: I do also find it fascinating how the same well-known character can be viewed so differently - that's interesting
 

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To me, the characterization of Luke and his disconnection from the Force was not one of my issues with the movie. I look at the nighttime confrontation with Ben to be a momentary reflex. In the same way that if a threat comes at you, your reflex is to defend yourself. He sensed such great power and darkness in Ben, his reflex was to ignite his lightsaber. In the split second following, he regains his control. 

As for disconnecting from the Force, I see it as him realizing the Force seeks equilibrium. And while a strong light side Force user is connected to the Force, an equally opposing dark side will rise. So I see his actions as heroic and not at all out of character. 

That said, I have no idea if that was the intention. And I think the confusion on many points in the movie points to poor writing. I definitely think the movie could have used a script doctor. I don’t have a problem with any of the concepts or characterizations, but the execution was far from perfect.
 
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