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Star Wars VIII - The Last Jedi

TV's Frink

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On another forum (not OT) someone complained today that TLJ "ruined Star Wars."  I thought to myself that the fact that some people think it ruined Star Wars just makes me like it even more.
 

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riwZBGA.jpg
 

Moe_Syzlak

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TVs Frink said:
On another forum (not OT) someone complained today that TLJ "ruined Star Wars."  I thought to myself that the fact that some people think it ruined Star Wars just makes me like it even more.

I’ve  stated my issues, but for the record I liked it but didn’t love it. But I wonder if folks saying the movies ruined Star Wars remember their reaction to Empire. The nine year old me (and all my friends) spent three years thinking it couldn’t be true that Vader was Luke’s father. But in the end, he was and it  was awesome.
 

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Exactly, @"TVs Frink".  That is EXACTLY what people want.  

Thanks for sharing, that made me smile!
 

Gaith

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Okay, everyone, we can all calm down now, the Gaithmeister is here to restore balance to the universe! :p

ThrowgnCpr said:
To claim that this movie is a disaster, or worse than anything from the PT is insanely ridiculous, but admittedly I am a little confused when I hear the polar opposite and people claim this is one of the best Star Wars movies.

Agreed.

Zamros said:
Is The Last Jedi really some uber-original product that is just too different?

I thought it felt like episodes II, V and VI smushed together, rather than just V like most expected.

Agreed again. Sure, we get some new Force abilities, but this was overall very much in stylistic line with TFA.

Okay, time for my review.

To recap: I didn't like TFA at all - in fact, I called it "very well-made garbage", and I stand by that opinion. I found it to be far too derivative of the OT, severely lacking in interesting characters, and generally dull. I give it a C-.

TLJ is, IMO, a bit of an improvement - the franchise r̶e̶c̶y̶c rhyming is less intrusive, Rey and Kylo become a bit more interesting with familiarity (I particularly like their mildly erotic flirtation), and Mark Hamill's Luke is a much more dramatically interesting character in this movie than Han was in TFA. Also, the movie overall isn't quite as dull. That's the good news.

The bad news is: it's still pretty dull for long stretches. (The opening battle sequence was completely useless; the first half-hour should have stuck entirely to the island.) It's still chock full of shoddy world-understanding (one X-Wing can knock out all the small cannon on an oversized Star Destroyer? The Resistance calls for aid, and gets pissy when allies in the Outer Rim don't fuel up, pack out, and arrive in the course of a few hours, tops? How Outer is the Outer Rim, anyway?!) Finn is still a fairly lame character, Rose is even lamer, and Leia still doesn't really do anything. Also, while playing her ANH hologram was nice, a message from Han, recorded and given to Threepio (who'd give it to Artoo) right before he died, would have been better. Worst of all, however: it's still the same old Light vs. Dark, Generic Evil vs. Generic Good crap, and, Benicio aside, it apparently always will be. I don't need to know why the Emperor wanted to Rule the Galaxy, or even Vader, because when they made their grandiose claims, we weren't supposed to consider them deep characters. But Kylo is supposed to be more nuanced and conflicted, so it does bother me that we get pretty much no hint as to what purpose he wants to Rule the Galaxy for, other than to marry Rey (understandable, but not germane).

I give the movie a C+. Better than TFA, but nowhere near as good as Dark Force Rising. Yep, I'm still banging this drum, and I'm going to keep banging it: the Thrawn Trilogy remains my sequel trilogy. Even Hamill himself, while always a classy and respectful guy, has stated that he isn't too happy with what these movies have done to his character. I don't believe that Luke would seriously consider (as in head to a hut, saber on his belt) murdering his own nephew in cold blood. The guy who thought the half-machine-man who blew up a whole frickin' planet could be redeemed, killing Ben Solo in his sleep before he even killed a single person? I don't like it, and I don't buy it. If it works for you, swell. No offense to anyone who enjoys TFA/TLJ. Myself, I don't - and that's okay. Everything's okay. (Well, no, it isn't, not at all, but this isn't the Politics thread.)

GotG Vol. 2 and Ragnarok, IMO, blow TLJ out of the water. Oh, and that joke I made about the title back in January? Yeah, I totally nailed it:

share_1_.0.png
 

DigModiFicaTion

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Gaith said:
I don't believe that Luke would seriously consider (as in head to a hut, saber on his belt) murdering his own nephew in cold blood. The guy who thought the half-machine-man who blew up a whole frickin' planet could be redeemed, killing Ben Solo in his sleep before he even killed a single person? I don't like it, and I don't buy it. If it works for you, swell.

The following is my interpretation of the film in response  to your well thought out review:

I seem to remember that he only went to the hut to peer into Ben's mind. The lightsaber was a reaction to the darkness he found when he did so. I can totally buy that. It's like when he went crazy on Vader during RotJ when he was filled with rage at the thought of Vader going after Leia. As Yoda pointed out,  he is "reckless". That flaw has already been established and this seems to be a continuation of it.
I personally don't think he gave up on the idea of Ben being redeemable. That's why he tried to train him in the first place. He, Luke, gave up on the idea of himself being redeemable. Remember his words to Artoo after Yoda died, "I can't do it Artoo. I can't go on alone". He's always doubted. To me, this character arc is the human Skywalker.
In this crazy world, I think he's the Skywalker we need, but not the one we want right now (makes that quote finally make sense). Rey is our new hope. She's already shown that it is the indomitable spirit and resolve that will save the galaxy. Comparatively, she has risen to the task and has done so in balance with the Force. Something Luke was never able to do.
I didn't enjoy the film, but I loved this aspect of Luke, Rey and Ben. It totally echoes Obi-Wan's line "you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." There has been no better visual of this than the two perspectives of Luke in Ben's hut. This is where I think Johnson got it right. He met some of the most controversial lines in Star Wars and explained them with imagery instead of with words.
 

DigModiFicaTion

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I don't care about the conspiracy theory of this video, but contrast Mark's reaction pre screening and post screening starting around 3:06. I think he knew (he wore all black), but he looks pretty shaken after seeing it really happen. I hope he has some force ghost scenes that bring him back some how. I mean Yoda physically interacted with the Luke in TLJ.


Anyway, two posts in a row, I need to get out of here.
 

TMBTM

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I never judge what someone thinks by the look on his face on a picture or even a video.
It's the power of editing.
You say he look sad, then yeah, he looks sad.
You said he looks tired, then yeah he looks tired.
You say he looks like thinking about eating donuts, then yeah, he kind of looks like thinking about eating donuts. ;)
 

DigModiFicaTion

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TMBTM said:
I never judge what someone thinks by the look on his face on a picture or even a video.
It's the power of editing.
You say he look sad, then yeah, he looks sad.
You said he looks tired, then yeah he looks tired.
You say he looks like thinking about eating donuts, then yeah, he kind of looks like thinking about eating donuts. ;)

You're right, he looks like he is thinking about happy thoughts :p
If you take what he's said about Luke's character, it helps to add some insight into what that look might really mean. But who knows!
 

TV's Frink

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Gaith said:
I give the movie a C+. Better than TFA, but nowhere near as good as Dark Force Rising.

Ranking a movie versus a book is silly.
 

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The Scribbling Man said:
"I've made a huge mistake."


http://epicstream.com/news/Mark-Ham...s-Initial-Reaction-To-Star-Wars-The-Last-Jedi

Like a lot of traditional Star Wars fans, Mark Hamill has expressed a bit of disappointment over the direction writer/director Rian Johnson took Luke Skywalker in The Last Jedi.

 Luke has always been a presented with a lawful good alignment in the Star Wars franchise – the Jedi has always been just and kind and upright. A lot of fans, including Hamill, felt pained that Johnson would write the character in a different way, turning Luke into a bitter and flawed old man in The Last Jedi.

While the Star Wars legend still doesn’t want to think that the version of Luke that Johnson wrote is the same Luke he’s been playing for years, Hamill does however admit that he was wrong about not accepting The Last Jedi’s Luke.

"I've had trouble accepting what he saw for Luke, but again, I have to say, having seen the movie, I was wrong," the actor told IMDb in a recent interview.

"I think being pushed out of your comfort zone is a good thing, because if I was just another benevolent Jedi, training young padawans...we've seen it, and no one can do it better than Alec Guinness and I shouldn't even try," Hamill said.
 

ThrowgnCpr

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TMBTM said:
I never judge what someone thinks by the look on his face on a picture or even a video.
It's the power of editing.
You say he look sad, then yeah, he looks sad.
You said he looks tired, then yeah he looks tired.
You say he looks like thinking about eating donuts, then yeah, he kind of looks like thinking about eating donuts. ;)

^ all this. And he was definitely thinking about donuts. I often go into donut stare...
 

The Scribbling Man

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I wasn't making any assumptions on what he was thinking about. I just like posting Arrested Development references.

Besides, I don't see why Sounds of Silence can't be the soundtrack to a donut craving. :p
 

Gaith

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DigModiFicaTion said:
I seem to remember that he only went to the hut to peer into Ben's mind. The lightsaber was a reaction to the darkness he found when he did so. I can totally buy that. It's like when he went crazy on Vader during RotJ when he was filled with rage at the thought of Vader going after Leia. As Yoda pointed out,  he is "reckless". That flaw has already been established and this seems to be a continuation of it.

Good point, although I'd wish that babysitting toddler Ben on Han and Leia's date nights, plus becoming a teacher to multiple kids, would have matured that recklessness a bit. Anyhow, Dark Luke was certainly the most interesting part of the movie, even if I wish both these movies hadn't forced him into repeating Yoda exile thing.


DigModiFicaTion said:
I personally don't think he gave up on the idea of Ben being redeemable. That's why he tried to train him in the first place. He, Luke, gave up on the idea of himself being redeemable. Remember his words to Artoo after Yoda died, "I can't do it Artoo. I can't go on alone". He's always doubted. To me, this character arc is the human Skywalker.

Eh? When he "tried to train [Ben] in the first place", as a kid, surely there was nothing bad to redeem at that point? (Unless we view sin/Dark proclivities as hereditary.) Which brings me back to the core problem here - even in this flashback, we're told that Snoke has already won Ben over to the Dark Side. Why? How? It's the most important/interesting thing to happen in this trilogy, and two movies in, we have zero clue as to why - other than the obvious real/world answer of "because a SW episode means Skywalker Family magic soap operatics." Which clearly works for many, but I, personally, want more.

We also learn in this movie that Luke didn't go to Ireland to commune with Jedi spirits of old (and yes, it kinda bothers me that Ghost Yoda is still around thirty years later, and hasn't yet "moved on" like Obi-Wan does at the start of Heir to the Empire, only five years after RotJ), nor did he go there in search of anything. He wasn't even watching over anyone like Obi-Wan, or waiting for a new New Hope like Yoda. Nope, he just went there to fish and die (also: wouldn't Jedi, like Vulcans, be vegetarian?). And for what storytelling purpose - to show that Rey is even bigger-hearted than him, and is the real hero we've been waiting for all these decades? Or will we get another trilogy in the 2040s in which Rey has also ultimately failed at family and rebuilding the Jedi, and also dies a sad, lonely virgin, but it's okay, because there's lots of new pew-pew-pew-filled VR movies and toys to sell, and look, an even newer moppet is even bigger-hearted than her?! (I'm not offended, obviously - this is all space fantasy for kids, and the inner kids in us "adults." I just don't like these two movies, is all.)


TVs Frink said:
Ranking a movie versus a book is silly.

Perhaps. But, whaddya know, The Last Jedi is also a novel-to-be... and I will give you a Honoghr ruby if it turns out to be a better book than Dark Force Rising:p
 

TV's Frink

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Gaith said:
Nope, he just went to fish and die (wouldn't Jedi, like Vulcans, be vegetarian?).

Every time I think I've heard all the complaints...
 
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